I had Marshall valvestate 8004 (2x 40 watt?) SS guitar power amp.. but both poweramp opamp ICs were blown.. so I put in some lm3875s I had around and now it works perfectly..
I think it would be a nice low-cost solution for you to build something similar. The schematic is actually very simple, and you have a high-damping factor / low-damping factor switch so you can choose which ever you like. Especially for cleaan and lo-to-mid overdrice, the low-damping factor option is nice. For high-gain distorion sounds, I don't use it.
http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/8004.pdf
But the sound is not the same as my tube amps, I really do prefer my tube power amps.. they have something sluggish, slowish, in the note-attack, that makes they easier to play with..
Now come on!! comment on the SS/Tube guitar posted by Markus2006...
I think it would be a nice low-cost solution for you to build something similar. The schematic is actually very simple, and you have a high-damping factor / low-damping factor switch so you can choose which ever you like. Especially for cleaan and lo-to-mid overdrice, the low-damping factor option is nice. For high-gain distorion sounds, I don't use it.
http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/8004.pdf
But the sound is not the same as my tube amps, I really do prefer my tube power amps.. they have something sluggish, slowish, in the note-attack, that makes they easier to play with..
Now come on!! comment on the SS/Tube guitar posted by Markus2006...
tschrama,
I didn't think it would sound as good as a tube amp but I already have an LM3875 kit I am not likely going to use for a long time since I built a 41hz amp for my speaker amp.
So the question is does it sound much better than a typical SS amp even if it is not as good as a tube amp?
I didn't think it would sound as good as a tube amp but I already have an LM3875 kit I am not likely going to use for a long time since I built a 41hz amp for my speaker amp.
So the question is does it sound much better than a typical SS amp even if it is not as good as a tube amp?
LOL, song 3 sounds solid state to me (don't like the sound at all). Song 1 sounds tubey. (It could be a modded OD pedal cause the recording quality isn't the greatest.)
Is that what you wanted me to comment on?
So back to my question:
Does the chipamp sound much better than a typical SS amp even if it is not as good as a tube amp?
Is that what you wanted me to comment on?
So back to my question:
Does the chipamp sound much better than a typical SS amp even if it is not as good as a tube amp?
That question is phrased more than strangely. A chip amp is nothing but a typical SS amp packaged inside a convenient chip, which in turn eliminates a lot of design work and the need to use a lot of discrete components and board space. Basically most of those chip amps are high power OpAmps, very similar to modern discrete power amplifiers.
“Chip amps” are used in output stages of plenty of modern SS guitar amps, including many models from Marshall, many models from Vox, many models from Crate amps, many models from Laney and many models from Fender. I think they have LM3886-based output even in the praised Tech 21 Trademark 60. Yu get the idea. Basically, mention a company that produces less than 100W SS amps and they likely use chip amp circuitry in at least few of their models. Nowadays it’s not even wise to consider building anything less than 50W discrete SS amps for anything but an exercise of SS circuit design. You get so much better performance from chip amps and they are so much simpler to construct. But as said, those things are basically just ordinary discrete amps integrated inside a convenient package.
I somewhat hate that term [chip amp]. It doesn’t tell anything. When you have an IC you can most of the time build pretty different circuits around it. Take for example OpAmps. They have numerous applications and basic circuits can be twisted to numerous variations. Marshall Valvestate’s output circuit is often pretty close to standard datasheet circuits except for the use of current feedback (which you will also find from almost every modern SS guitar amp) but if you compare something like a Valve Reactor output stage of Vox AD30VT to the datasheet circuit of LM3886 or to a generic “Gainclone” you’ll find out that it’s a whole different beast. Both use the same chip for power amplification but by nature the complete power amps are nothing alike. You always have to look at the complete picture.
“Chip amps” are used in output stages of plenty of modern SS guitar amps, including many models from Marshall, many models from Vox, many models from Crate amps, many models from Laney and many models from Fender. I think they have LM3886-based output even in the praised Tech 21 Trademark 60. Yu get the idea. Basically, mention a company that produces less than 100W SS amps and they likely use chip amp circuitry in at least few of their models. Nowadays it’s not even wise to consider building anything less than 50W discrete SS amps for anything but an exercise of SS circuit design. You get so much better performance from chip amps and they are so much simpler to construct. But as said, those things are basically just ordinary discrete amps integrated inside a convenient package.
I somewhat hate that term [chip amp]. It doesn’t tell anything. When you have an IC you can most of the time build pretty different circuits around it. Take for example OpAmps. They have numerous applications and basic circuits can be twisted to numerous variations. Marshall Valvestate’s output circuit is often pretty close to standard datasheet circuits except for the use of current feedback (which you will also find from almost every modern SS guitar amp) but if you compare something like a Valve Reactor output stage of Vox AD30VT to the datasheet circuit of LM3886 or to a generic “Gainclone” you’ll find out that it’s a whole different beast. Both use the same chip for power amplification but by nature the complete power amps are nothing alike. You always have to look at the complete picture.
I guess that all makes sense but I have a chipamp here and intend to build it. Whither I use it in a guitar amp or not remains to be seen. I have to decide still. I did really like the Roland 120 but they are too expensive here. I am into jazz now so tubes may not be 100% necessary despite the fact that I want to have a tube based amp. I looked at the designs for silverface champs and felt I could do one but I already have the LM3875 kit here so wondered if I should figure out if it would work for me first.
OK, so it's time to solve the puzzle 🙂.
First of all, thank you for your feedback (especially to Tscharma and Teemuk).
You are experts and all of you are right. In both cases it was a SS amp. I thought that someone would tell that the first one was a tube amp 😉 but after this:
The second song was recorded with some very cheap SS amp (Laney or Randall). And as Tschrama wrote, it does not sound good due to the fact that it was played at low volume (home recording).
I also fully agree with Teemu when he says that:
but this time the guitarist uses Marshall TSL602 (of course tube amp, at higher volume). Do you think it sounds better than previous recordings? Still the quality is not perfect (it was just a jamm and they played the song without any rehearsal).
Mark
First of all, thank you for your feedback (especially to Tscharma and Teemuk).
You are experts and all of you are right. In both cases it was a SS amp. I thought that someone would tell that the first one was a tube amp 😉 but after this:
you were just one step away from saying that this is SS with a DSP module. And in fact it was one of Line-6 amps with sound modeling knob set to "blues".tschrama said:
The second song was recorded with some very cheap SS amp (Laney or Randall). And as Tschrama wrote, it does not sound good due to the fact that it was played at low volume (home recording).
I also fully agree with Teemu when he says that:
Teemu has also correctly recognised the amps:teemuk said:
My opinion is that 95% of a good sound is a good musician + a good instrument and only the last 5% is the amp. I have just one last question (I don't want to stop the thread); here are the same guys (live in concert): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaNA5vJZ64I
but this time the guitarist uses Marshall TSL602 (of course tube amp, at higher volume). Do you think it sounds better than previous recordings? Still the quality is not perfect (it was just a jamm and they played the song without any rehearsal).
Mark
Ok, another YouTube example, this time solid-state with Alex Skolnick and Marshall MF350. Perhaps could've used a bit more reverb (and naturally cowbell 🙂).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhVUS8hGn0E
And what about Wolfsgrimm playing some BM (though you may not dig the genre at least listen to the solo at the end) …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=931KPv8EJfI
…with what looks like a SS Hughes & Kettner Vortex 112. Not bad. The stage setup is pretty modest (especially for an outdoor gig) but something like this is what you usually see at gigs of small bands. And let’s face it, most of people playing guitar never will rock stadiums armed with a wall of amps. How many of you get to crank that 4x12" cab with a 100W tube amp? Seriously?
I simply don’t understand why SS amps get ridiculed as much as they do. Tone-wise, the guys in those youtube vids have nothing to shame although playing gear that would make most tube sniffers look them down their nose. If they were given high-quality state-of-the-art tube amps they still would sound pretty much the same – which you can also witness in the case of Testament since most of you people have likely heard them playing with various different amps. ..And then, take artist such as Santana; he sounds pretty much like himself whether playing Mesa-Boogie (tube) or a GMT 260 (SS). Actually, his signature tone with Mesa is pretty much a copy of what he started with an SS amp. Give an skillful artist a decent guitar and amp with a decent range for different tones and he gets his signature tone out from them. For sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhVUS8hGn0E
And what about Wolfsgrimm playing some BM (though you may not dig the genre at least listen to the solo at the end) …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=931KPv8EJfI
…with what looks like a SS Hughes & Kettner Vortex 112. Not bad. The stage setup is pretty modest (especially for an outdoor gig) but something like this is what you usually see at gigs of small bands. And let’s face it, most of people playing guitar never will rock stadiums armed with a wall of amps. How many of you get to crank that 4x12" cab with a 100W tube amp? Seriously?
I simply don’t understand why SS amps get ridiculed as much as they do. Tone-wise, the guys in those youtube vids have nothing to shame although playing gear that would make most tube sniffers look them down their nose. If they were given high-quality state-of-the-art tube amps they still would sound pretty much the same – which you can also witness in the case of Testament since most of you people have likely heard them playing with various different amps. ..And then, take artist such as Santana; he sounds pretty much like himself whether playing Mesa-Boogie (tube) or a GMT 260 (SS). Actually, his signature tone with Mesa is pretty much a copy of what he started with an SS amp. Give an skillful artist a decent guitar and amp with a decent range for different tones and he gets his signature tone out from them. For sure.
Double post because I could not edit the first. "You are currently under moderation"
SS with tons of distortion makes the guitar sound out of tune.
SS with tons of distortion makes the guitar sound out of tune.
Yep, I think I am going to try and build a blackface champ. The 5E3 and Princeton circuits apparently break up to early and I want an amp I can play clean for jazz (70%) and turn up for blues (30%). I came to the conclusion that I have to go tube / valve since every amp that I have ever loved has been tube with the exception of the Roland Jazz Chorus 120.
I found some info about the champ from DIYSteve's website. Does anyone else have any recommendations for amp building sites? Ax84 is for marshalls which are not known as jazz amps so I am really looking at Fender type amps to build. I plan on building from scratch since I can't afford to buy a kit from overseas to have shipped to Australia. Any advice on the champ circuit would be appreciated.
I found some info about the champ from DIYSteve's website. Does anyone else have any recommendations for amp building sites? Ax84 is for marshalls which are not known as jazz amps so I am really looking at Fender type amps to build. I plan on building from scratch since I can't afford to buy a kit from overseas to have shipped to Australia. Any advice on the champ circuit would be appreciated.
SS amps making guitar sound out of tune when distorted???
that's because of harmonics beginning with the 7th. some of the odd harmonics including the 7th, and some even harmonics beginning with the 14th are dissonant with the fundamental. SS amps tend to create more of the higher harmonics because of their abrupt clipping characteristics, pentode tubes have similar clipping characteristics, but the bandwidth limitations due to the output transformer usually filter out the higher harmonics generated. in SS amps, the odd harmonics tend to dominate over even harmonics
the characteristic sound of a tube amp can be copied in a SS amp. VOX does it, and it's relatively simple. an inverse of the desired "transfer function" is inserted into the feedback loop of the amp. as the amp corrects for the "anomalies" in the feedback loop, it duplicates the characteristics of the amp being copied. this is a lot simpler than the DSP methods used in modern "modeling" amps.
that's because of harmonics beginning with the 7th. some of the odd harmonics including the 7th, and some even harmonics beginning with the 14th are dissonant with the fundamental. SS amps tend to create more of the higher harmonics because of their abrupt clipping characteristics, pentode tubes have similar clipping characteristics, but the bandwidth limitations due to the output transformer usually filter out the higher harmonics generated. in SS amps, the odd harmonics tend to dominate over even harmonics
the characteristic sound of a tube amp can be copied in a SS amp. VOX does it, and it's relatively simple. an inverse of the desired "transfer function" is inserted into the feedback loop of the amp. as the amp corrects for the "anomalies" in the feedback loop, it duplicates the characteristics of the amp being copied. this is a lot simpler than the DSP methods used in modern "modeling" amps.
I have a little Marshall MG15DXF here beside me. If you read a few reviews you will find few that score this little amp less than 8 out of ten and many that rate it higher.
It costs ~$170. You can get one in the UK for ~£85. If you don't want the DFX, there's even a cut-down model.
OK, most of the people writing these reviews are not successful recording artists, but if they were then they wouldn't be reviews, they'd be endorsements.
It must be 5 years ago I went into the shop to try it, I couldn't leave without it. I have owned and played many amplifiers, tube and SS, and this is the last one I'd give up. Because it's only got an 8in speaker and 15W (it's still got a lineout) but is still capable of that Marshall 'edge' (and many other sounds) it's the most versatile amplifier I've ever had. You can carry it around. You can hack into it and run it off batteries. It's even got an emulated spring reverb. It's obviously SS and it's truly musical.
w
It costs ~$170. You can get one in the UK for ~£85. If you don't want the DFX, there's even a cut-down model.
OK, most of the people writing these reviews are not successful recording artists, but if they were then they wouldn't be reviews, they'd be endorsements.
It must be 5 years ago I went into the shop to try it, I couldn't leave without it. I have owned and played many amplifiers, tube and SS, and this is the last one I'd give up. Because it's only got an 8in speaker and 15W (it's still got a lineout) but is still capable of that Marshall 'edge' (and many other sounds) it's the most versatile amplifier I've ever had. You can carry it around. You can hack into it and run it off batteries. It's even got an emulated spring reverb. It's obviously SS and it's truly musical.
w
Roland JC-90 Amp Mods?
I just picked up a Roland JC-90. Baby brother of the JC-120. 80 watt true stereo 2 X 10" combo. My first JC. Had always known about them but never actively sought to own one. Actually I wasn't now either. Was a case of right place, right time, presumeably right deal. Now I know all about the complaints from the rockers that the control and effect is "unusable". It is after all a "Jazz" Chorus amp, which to me invokes images of "clean", which this amp does wonderfully in my humble opinion. But since EVERYONE seems to know about the distortion lacking has anybody tried to address it in the form of a modification? Presently I'm using a Zoom multi-effect processor for distortion, but it would be nice and even a bit novel to have this amp provide good distortion on board and maybe raise a few eyebrows at the same time. Catch some of the naysayers off guard and make em do a double take. This is my first post by the way. I'm an electronics field servie engineer in the health care industry with 20+ yrs experience installing and servicing x-ray and CT systems in hospitals and clinics and my electronics training is from the military so I know my way around a meter and a scope. Been playing guitar since I was about 15 and never cracked the case on an amp before. I don't have the schematics for this nor have I had luck finding any. Might the solutioin be as simple as taking the pcb out of a distortion pedal and rigging it seamlessly somehow into the amp, or is that too amaturish? From some of the posts I've read here I'm quite certian there's no shortage of expertise on the subject. I'm anxious to see what solutions might be offered up. But please, I can probably do without the wisecracks like " get a tube amp" or "use a pedal". This has more to do with my perpensity for always wanting to build a better mouse trap, or fix what's not broken. Ah crap, I just realized I was probably supposed to start a new thread with this. Like I said, this is my first time EVER posting to a board. I'll read the FAQ's and learn the right way so forgive my blunder.
I just picked up a Roland JC-90. Baby brother of the JC-120. 80 watt true stereo 2 X 10" combo. My first JC. Had always known about them but never actively sought to own one. Actually I wasn't now either. Was a case of right place, right time, presumeably right deal. Now I know all about the complaints from the rockers that the control and effect is "unusable". It is after all a "Jazz" Chorus amp, which to me invokes images of "clean", which this amp does wonderfully in my humble opinion. But since EVERYONE seems to know about the distortion lacking has anybody tried to address it in the form of a modification? Presently I'm using a Zoom multi-effect processor for distortion, but it would be nice and even a bit novel to have this amp provide good distortion on board and maybe raise a few eyebrows at the same time. Catch some of the naysayers off guard and make em do a double take. This is my first post by the way. I'm an electronics field servie engineer in the health care industry with 20+ yrs experience installing and servicing x-ray and CT systems in hospitals and clinics and my electronics training is from the military so I know my way around a meter and a scope. Been playing guitar since I was about 15 and never cracked the case on an amp before. I don't have the schematics for this nor have I had luck finding any. Might the solutioin be as simple as taking the pcb out of a distortion pedal and rigging it seamlessly somehow into the amp, or is that too amaturish? From some of the posts I've read here I'm quite certian there's no shortage of expertise on the subject. I'm anxious to see what solutions might be offered up. But please, I can probably do without the wisecracks like " get a tube amp" or "use a pedal". This has more to do with my perpensity for always wanting to build a better mouse trap, or fix what's not broken. Ah crap, I just realized I was probably supposed to start a new thread with this. Like I said, this is my first time EVER posting to a board. I'll read the FAQ's and learn the right way so forgive my blunder.
IMO in SS if you have enough high to make chords sound clear then single notes sound harsh and if you tweak it for leads the chords turn to mush.
I believe in tube amps the transformer can't keep up with high power draw from lower notes and chords cutting some low frequencies.
So with tubes you can cut through the mix with a low E chord then jump to a nice and thick single E note at the 17th fret which can't be done (yet) with SS.
You can fake it in SS by turning the gain way but you give up dynamics and tone.
I believe in tube amps the transformer can't keep up with high power draw from lower notes and chords cutting some low frequencies.
So with tubes you can cut through the mix with a low E chord then jump to a nice and thick single E note at the 17th fret which can't be done (yet) with SS.
You can fake it in SS by turning the gain way but you give up dynamics and tone.
I guess it would help to know in which you feel the "distortion lacks", and what kind of circuit the amp has inside.
I’m not familiar with JC-90 but if it’s anything like the most famous Jazz Chorus amp, the JC-120, I won’t waste my time on giving any suggestions for modifications until an exact schematic of the amp in question is presented. Why? Because the JC-120 is not a single amp but throughout the years has actually appeared in many different versions, which tend to be quite different from one another.
But all in all, those are not easy amps to modify to accommodate a decent-sounding distortion. Basically the effect just switches in a simple diode clipping stage but rest of the circuitry shares all its voicing with the clean channel. Modifying simple distortion circuits like the ones in the JC-series is painstaking and always happens with the expense of the clean channel, which unfortunately is the amp’s forte. Hence the suggestion to buy a pedal for distortion effects is not a wise crack but a sensible suggestion. It’s a solution that has been proven throughout the years. If someone had a few mod ideas that would turn JC-series distortion into awesome sounding effect without interfering with the greatness of the clean channel you can trust that they had already been known decades ago.
I think your best bet would be to build a whole another channel to that amp. Solely dedicated for creating a good sounding distortion effect. Yes, if you plan to use something that’s already out there then it is as easy as just taking an effect pedal PCB and mounting it inside the amp. BUT the amp naturally has to have room to accommodate it and you also have to drill holes for the controls and provide a power supply. Personally, I don’t think that is any easier or better solution than using the very same circuit in an external pedal but if you think otherwise then that’s all that counts. It’s your amp and application anyway.
I’m not familiar with JC-90 but if it’s anything like the most famous Jazz Chorus amp, the JC-120, I won’t waste my time on giving any suggestions for modifications until an exact schematic of the amp in question is presented. Why? Because the JC-120 is not a single amp but throughout the years has actually appeared in many different versions, which tend to be quite different from one another.
But all in all, those are not easy amps to modify to accommodate a decent-sounding distortion. Basically the effect just switches in a simple diode clipping stage but rest of the circuitry shares all its voicing with the clean channel. Modifying simple distortion circuits like the ones in the JC-series is painstaking and always happens with the expense of the clean channel, which unfortunately is the amp’s forte. Hence the suggestion to buy a pedal for distortion effects is not a wise crack but a sensible suggestion. It’s a solution that has been proven throughout the years. If someone had a few mod ideas that would turn JC-series distortion into awesome sounding effect without interfering with the greatness of the clean channel you can trust that they had already been known decades ago.
I think your best bet would be to build a whole another channel to that amp. Solely dedicated for creating a good sounding distortion effect. Yes, if you plan to use something that’s already out there then it is as easy as just taking an effect pedal PCB and mounting it inside the amp. BUT the amp naturally has to have room to accommodate it and you also have to drill holes for the controls and provide a power supply. Personally, I don’t think that is any easier or better solution than using the very same circuit in an external pedal but if you think otherwise then that’s all that counts. It’s your amp and application anyway.
I would stay away from modifying an amp which is excellent at doing what it's designed for. There are plenty of options to create a overdriven/ distorted sound with pedals/ stompboxes.
You could build a tubescreamer circuit (basically a opamp with diodes in the feedback loop), big muff or fuzzface like circuits for a more extreme distortion. Or even valve based stuff (like the butler tubedriver). There are plenty of schematics floating around!
Best regards,
Jarno.
You could build a tubescreamer circuit (basically a opamp with diodes in the feedback loop), big muff or fuzzface like circuits for a more extreme distortion. Or even valve based stuff (like the butler tubedriver). There are plenty of schematics floating around!
Best regards,
Jarno.
This might help, ask your boy what choice of amps his guitar heroes all use, tube or solid state.
Why not put a (switchable) output transformer on a guitar amp?
A torodial 18-0-18 will do it, rated at the amp's output.
Put the amplifier across one secondary, the speaker across the other secondary, and you have (effectively) an isolation transformer, that adds some of the nice valve tone, but can be bypassed with a switch.
I did the above to my combo amp (1x10", 30W), and it sounds lovely. Give it a go - most people have a transformer lying around. You can use a lower voltage (and wattage) one, if you keep it turned down.
A torodial 18-0-18 will do it, rated at the amp's output.
Put the amplifier across one secondary, the speaker across the other secondary, and you have (effectively) an isolation transformer, that adds some of the nice valve tone, but can be bypassed with a switch.
I did the above to my combo amp (1x10", 30W), and it sounds lovely. Give it a go - most people have a transformer lying around. You can use a lower voltage (and wattage) one, if you keep it turned down.
you could also add a switch with resistors across it (1 ohm 20W ceramics) between the rectifier and filter caps on a SS amp to add some sag to the power supply for additional "mush". also some predistortion with a soft-clip circuit would give a distortion similar to a clipped tube amp without saturating the output devices. add the transformer to the output for increased output impedance (as well as a modified frequency response) and it may sound very much like a tube amp. Bob Carver was able to get his SS amp to sound and measure exactly identical to a McIntosh tube amp in every way, just by adding a reverse tube characteristic to the feedback loop, so it really has been done before.
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