Thanks.
So, since all the tips are made the same way, there is no advantage to getting high end ones, except for durability, which I'm not concerned about ?
The least durable part of a tip is the coating.
A pin hole here lets the copper make contact with the hot solder.
The copper gets eroded away to form a cavity under the coating.
The cavity justs gets bigger as you use the tip for further soldering.
Eventually you throw the tip away, or file it down to a short chisel tip that is uncoated and have to re-profile it repeatedly with use. A short thick chisel tip can be useful where you need a lot of heat for a big joint, or across two pins at the same time for component removal, or for a ground plane soldering job where the layout designer forgot to place thermal breaks around the solder pad.
A pin hole here lets the copper make contact with the hot solder.
The copper gets eroded away to form a cavity under the coating.
The cavity justs gets bigger as you use the tip for further soldering.
Eventually you throw the tip away, or file it down to a short chisel tip that is uncoated and have to re-profile it repeatedly with use. A short thick chisel tip can be useful where you need a lot of heat for a big joint, or across two pins at the same time for component removal, or for a ground plane soldering job where the layout designer forgot to place thermal breaks around the solder pad.
Last edited:
@ Peranders,
I am not trying to argue, I just have to take issue with what you've said here.
I would have to state categorically this is not ALWAYS the case.
My old iron has absolutely no EMI what so ever. It can remain
hot while any measurement is taken and it won't interfere with any
old or new or even SOTA measurement gear -- I guarantee it.
I'll post a pic when I get a chance.
Then I think you will be suitably understanding.
And thank you for your posting in generalities
as we all do.
Cheers,
Sync
Old Soldering Iron = no EMI
@Peranders, that sounded a bit harsh, please accept my apologies.
Here is a pic of the soldering iron. 🙂
NOTE:
Tip made of Cu,
held in place by wrought iron
Features: include:
Wood insulating handle.
Ok, what say you?
Post Script -- Very poor for SMDs and circuit board work.
Not so bad for large vintage stuff.
It has to be big.
@Peranders, that sounded a bit harsh, please accept my apologies.
Here is a pic of the soldering iron. 🙂
NOTE:
Tip made of Cu,
held in place by wrought iron
Features: include:
Wood insulating handle.
Ok, what say you?
Post Script -- Very poor for SMDs and circuit board work.
Not so bad for large vintage stuff.
It has to be big.
Attachments
Last edited:
I'm not sure Sync has made it to the 20th century yet.
I have used a number of irons over the years. The Weller's were the first to use the curie point to control the temperature but they used a contact and magnet to sense the temperature. Klutzy and generated a pulse when the switch opened. Ungar made the heating element with an internal temp switch on the premium irons (this was 30-40 years ago now) which worked pretty well but still needed a lot of mass to work. Another company had a thermistor inside the tip which controlled a triac with a pot to control the heat. These all worked for point to point and early large PCB's but could easily damage a PCB. They were all used in production environments.
The Metcals redefined what can and should be done for a soldering iron. Originally they were used by NASA, Aerospace and Medical electronics mfr's because the joints were more uniform and the potential for damage was much less. They were really expensive ($500 in 1980's was real money) but worth the investment.
The virtue of the Metcal is that it instantly starts pulling power when the tip connects with a junction. I have a power meter on one of mine and its clear how quick it is. And it won't overheat. It can't so you have less risk of damaging a PCB with too much heat. The Metcal tips come in three temperatures with a lot of shapes. I have probably 30 now. They never seem to wear out. The really fine tips are great for rework on fine pitch devices. I got all of mine used. I have used some for 20 years now.
Metcal got absorbed by some other company and no longer is in Silicon Valley. Still my first choice. Even for a hobby I think good tools make a difference between results and frustration. Same for hand tools. However I use a $12 PCB holder and some other cheap gadgets that are part of the current wave of tools for cell phone service.
I have used a number of irons over the years. The Weller's were the first to use the curie point to control the temperature but they used a contact and magnet to sense the temperature. Klutzy and generated a pulse when the switch opened. Ungar made the heating element with an internal temp switch on the premium irons (this was 30-40 years ago now) which worked pretty well but still needed a lot of mass to work. Another company had a thermistor inside the tip which controlled a triac with a pot to control the heat. These all worked for point to point and early large PCB's but could easily damage a PCB. They were all used in production environments.
The Metcals redefined what can and should be done for a soldering iron. Originally they were used by NASA, Aerospace and Medical electronics mfr's because the joints were more uniform and the potential for damage was much less. They were really expensive ($500 in 1980's was real money) but worth the investment.
The virtue of the Metcal is that it instantly starts pulling power when the tip connects with a junction. I have a power meter on one of mine and its clear how quick it is. And it won't overheat. It can't so you have less risk of damaging a PCB with too much heat. The Metcal tips come in three temperatures with a lot of shapes. I have probably 30 now. They never seem to wear out. The really fine tips are great for rework on fine pitch devices. I got all of mine used. I have used some for 20 years now.
Metcal got absorbed by some other company and no longer is in Silicon Valley. Still my first choice. Even for a hobby I think good tools make a difference between results and frustration. Same for hand tools. However I use a $12 PCB holder and some other cheap gadgets that are part of the current wave of tools for cell phone service.
Thanks Demian.
Also, thanks Demian. What you said in Post #27 is wonderful overview
and summation of the soldering stations that we all should be aware of,
their history and the advances made to them.
The hardest part of the iron is getting good quality coal these days.
We need low-ash, low-sulphur, bituminous coal from which to
make coke. Then laid out on a slight blow...careful clean temp
low in impurities and a borox flux to help clean the joints
and let the lead flow.
Cheers,
Also, thanks Demian. What you said in Post #27 is wonderful overview
and summation of the soldering stations that we all should be aware of,
their history and the advances made to them.
The hardest part of the iron is getting good quality coal these days.
We need low-ash, low-sulphur, bituminous coal from which to
make coke. Then laid out on a slight blow...careful clean temp
low in impurities and a borox flux to help clean the joints
and let the lead flow.
Cheers,
No I just found it on ebay/dangerous prototypes
It should heat as fast as the original controllers allow, I have a jbc (cheapish auction room find) and love it, heats up in 3~4 seconds, the tips take a good deal of abuse, and a huge range of profiles, jbctools c245 cartridges
regards
james
It should heat as fast as the original controllers allow, I have a jbc (cheapish auction room find) and love it, heats up in 3~4 seconds, the tips take a good deal of abuse, and a huge range of profiles, jbctools c245 cartridges
regards
james
No one seems to have actually answered this question either.
My view is that the differences between tips, at the actual point where they solder, is fairly small.
The real difference is in the thermal path, as already discussed, and price, availability and whether there is a wide selection of options to suit your needs.
Here is a link to some information on how tips are made, and ruined.
Contain some less well known information that may be useful
http://www.newark.com/pdfs/techarticles/oki-metcal/extendingTipLife.pdf
Best wishes
David
I had a closer look at the two "Quick" brand stations that you linked.
The first appears to be a clone brother of an Atten and/or Kingsom product.
Tips separate from the thermocouple, so quite cheap, probably swap with the other brands.
The second appears to be unique to Quick.
Thermosensor built in to the tip/shaft assembly so a bit more expensive.
Looks like quite a nice unit, tell us what you buy and how it works out.
Last edited:
Hi Dan,
Thanks again for your informative answer.
I'm still studying the Chinese stations which are many. I'll let you know what I get.
Why do you insist on a Chinese soldering station? Metcal was suggested many times and for good reason. I'm an occasional solder slinger, always hated doing it as I never seemed to get consistent results despite using all the suggestions that were offered. After doing a lot of reading I decided on a Metcal, an older model so I could afford it. Watched ebay and came away with a power supply and a new hand piece for about 100 bucks. Bought a small assortment of good used tips for a few dollars each.
By the way, the tip is a long shaft that fits all the way down into the handle and can be switched out in about 3 seconds. Pull the hot one out and slide the next one in. Simple as that. The handle is a very slim and light piece, your grip is very close to the tip, gives super control when working in tight spaces. After using this, my Weller feels like a baseball bat.
The quality of my soldering improved dramatically and I actually found myself looking forward to projects that involved soldering.
A Metcal is a quality high tech tool that works great. Worth every bit of what it cost, especially when you shop carefully. I have no want of any Chinese tools, most are cheap throw away junk, even a lot of there machine tools are junk. When I'm working on something the last thing I need is my tools to fail on me.
Buy what you want, but you have been given excellent advise by everyone that has addressed you.
BillWojo
By the way, the tip is a long shaft that fits all the way down into the handle and can be switched out in about 3 seconds. Pull the hot one out and slide the next one in. Simple as that. The handle is a very slim and light piece, your grip is very close to the tip, gives super control when working in tight spaces. After using this, my Weller feels like a baseball bat.
The quality of my soldering improved dramatically and I actually found myself looking forward to projects that involved soldering.
A Metcal is a quality high tech tool that works great. Worth every bit of what it cost, especially when you shop carefully. I have no want of any Chinese tools, most are cheap throw away junk, even a lot of there machine tools are junk. When I'm working on something the last thing I need is my tools to fail on me.
Buy what you want, but you have been given excellent advise by everyone that has addressed you.
BillWojo
The claims of "Chinese...cheap...junk" inspired me to have a closer look at the Quick, and a bit more of a think, there are a few subtleties even in a heater control system.
The Quick is potentially a better system than the Metcal or similar Curie point irons.
The Curie point irons have only an on/off sensor and only on/off control.
The Quick 203 has actual temperature measurement and a more sophisticated PID control system.
It should be able to control the tip temperature more accurately.
The Quick may also have a more powerful heater than the Metcal, unfortunately they only quote power consumption and efficiency is unknown.
It is plausible that efficiency would be similar but no proof.
A more powerful heater would make sense to exploit the improved control potential of the PID system.
The question is whether Quick have actually implemented it well.
The fact the new irons have the thermosensor built in to the tip unit makes me think they have taken this seriously.
It could further improve the temperature control.
Now I am even more keen to learn what you buy and your results.
Best wishes
David
Last edited:
That's a bit of a misreading of how the Metcal works. It cannot overheat since the magnetic properties of the tip are what allow it to heat up. Its response is instantaneous and it stops taking energy when it hits the temperature set by the alloy. There is no controller. Th heatt happens right at the tip not behind it.
The Weller does have overshoot issues due to the slower response between the tip and the heating element.
A thermister in the tip will work pretty well but it doesn't know whats happening on the other side of the tip. The PID will approximate the load and try to compensate/predict but there still is a time lag. This probably is not important for hobby work. Its really important in avionics and medical electronics.
The Weller does have overshoot issues due to the slower response between the tip and the heating element.
A thermister in the tip will work pretty well but it doesn't know whats happening on the other side of the tip. The PID will approximate the load and try to compensate/predict but there still is a time lag. This probably is not important for hobby work. Its really important in avionics and medical electronics.
I don't misread the Curie point irons, I've studied the patents and it's a clever idea.
But it is not "instantaneous", limited by the power input of the heater, thermal "capacitance" of the tip and the fact that the heated area is away from the actual point at which the solder is melted, check the patent illustrations
A thermosensor could actually be embedded in the tip closer than the Metcal Curie point material.
I suspect that is why the 202 heater unit has an integrated thermosensor rather than the separate sensor used by most others.
I am almost tempted to buy a tip just to pull it apart and see, also confirm if it's a thermistor, as you say, or a thermocouple, as I expect.
However, my main point is that "The PID will approximate the load and try to compensate/predict", which the Curie point irons can't do.
Best wishes
David
Last edited:
I'm getting a used Metcal soon, and is considering what tips to get.
It seems most people are using the standard 100 or 700 series of tips (temperature 412 degC), which seems a bit hot for me - I usually just use 340 degC for most soldering tasks before. Is there disadvantages in using the 600 series of tips instead (temperature 357 degC) ?
Thanks and regards.
It seems most people are using the standard 100 or 700 series of tips (temperature 412 degC), which seems a bit hot for me - I usually just use 340 degC for most soldering tasks before. Is there disadvantages in using the 600 series of tips instead (temperature 357 degC) ?
Thanks and regards.
340 to 360°C is enormous.
I use 290 to 300°C
I only turn it up when working with big joints, or not thermally relieved planes.
I checked the calibration by very slowly advancing the temperature setting with a ring of fine solder around the tip. When it melts you know (approximately) the tip temp. The solder melts/freezes @ 183°C (63/37 eutectic.).
I use 290 to 300°C
I only turn it up when working with big joints, or not thermally relieved planes.
I checked the calibration by very slowly advancing the temperature setting with a ring of fine solder around the tip. When it melts you know (approximately) the tip temp. The solder melts/freezes @ 183°C (63/37 eutectic.).
- Status
- Not open for further replies.