system 1: Sony DVP NS57P --> Sansui 4000 (vintage 1972) --> FE127e Fonkens (prime)
system 2: Denon DCM260 --> Yamaha CR-1000 (vintage 1977?) --> either FE108eSigma Metronomes or MJK OB using FF85k and Alpha 15a
system 3: Sony DVP NS57P --> MiniWatt tube amp --> F120a Metronomes
Note: The F120a does not like SS; tubes are essential here. The OB does not like the MiniWatt (plump, loose bass); nor did it like MJK's tube amp (no bass below about 100 Hz.)
system 2: Denon DCM260 --> Yamaha CR-1000 (vintage 1977?) --> either FE108eSigma Metronomes or MJK OB using FF85k and Alpha 15a
system 3: Sony DVP NS57P --> MiniWatt tube amp --> F120a Metronomes
Note: The F120a does not like SS; tubes are essential here. The OB does not like the MiniWatt (plump, loose bass); nor did it like MJK's tube amp (no bass below about 100 Hz.)
Main: dell laptop (usb dac), maranz dv 4003 ($90!!!) or micro seiki mb14 >> RS 100K alps >> behringer cx3400 >> lm3875(bot),magnavox el84 from 60's(mid),T-Amp(top) >> 8"daytoneDVCsub(29L sealed),fe167e (9L sealed 200hz/8Khz), jensen tweeter (street find) I plan to replace fe167/jensen with fe207e on OB
BR: toshiba dvd >> sony ta1010 (vintage 1970's 20wph) >> 3" fe87e TL . surprisingly good combination.
GF: samsung dvd >> LM 3886 >> Aura NS3-194-8E (fostex DBR for 83"s it works)
BR: toshiba dvd >> sony ta1010 (vintage 1970's 20wph) >> 3" fe87e TL . surprisingly good combination.
GF: samsung dvd >> LM 3886 >> Aura NS3-194-8E (fostex DBR for 83"s it works)
I respectfully disagree.
MJK and I have tried a number of SS amps with the F120a. None of them work well--something is seriously deficient in the HF range. Until I heard what a tube amp could do for the F120a, I was convinced it was a mediocre driver. Switching from SS to tubes turns it from mediocre to marvelous. There is nothing subtle about it. I was planning to dump the F120a, but changed my mind when I heard it with tubes. I then went out and bought the MiniWatt--my first tubes since the 1960's.
Cheers, Jim
MJK and I have tried a number of SS amps with the F120a. None of them work well--something is seriously deficient in the HF range. Until I heard what a tube amp could do for the F120a, I was convinced it was a mediocre driver. Switching from SS to tubes turns it from mediocre to marvelous. There is nothing subtle about it. I was planning to dump the F120a, but changed my mind when I heard it with tubes. I then went out and bought the MiniWatt--my first tubes since the 1960's.
Cheers, Jim
Of course we are all entitled to respectfully disagree with others' wrong opinions
, but FWIW, I'd certainly concur with Jim's observation.A while ago I built a commissioned pair of enclosures for F120A (EnABLed by Bud), and had the privilege of borrowing them from the owner for several weeks before delivery. With a range of tubed and T-amps from 3W to 20, to my ears, they sounded sweetest to me on Bottlehead 2A3 SET. I've never heard a stock pair, but the treated drivers had more than enough resolution to reveal the grain and limited soundstage of the particular SS amps involved ( Trends / Kingrex T20)
I respectfully disagree.
Jim and I both have pairs of F120A drivers. His are in a Metromome enclosure and mine are in an OB. Both of us use primarily SS amps. Both of us have been underwhelmed by the F120A, the performance for the cost has been really disappointing. I think we were both ready to sell the drivers until we heard his F120A Metronome powered by my 15 watt EL84 integrated tube amp. I am not a tube amp believer, but I can tell you the performance jump of his F120A drivers with my tube amp was significant across the entire audio spectrum. Not at all subtle, we were both stunned. When I have powered some of my other speakers with both my SS amp and my tube amp, the tube amp has come up way short every time particularly in the bass department. To be honest I was ready to dump both the F120A and the tube amp, and I may still go that route. I don't know why, I can only tell you what we both have heard.
IIRC, and Chris and Dave can correct me if I'm wrong, but the CSS FR125 didn't do very well with tubes on the OB that I brought to a RAW Fest a few years back. On SS it seemed to be just fine, so I'm of the opinion that some drivers work best with tubes and some with SS.
I know this is startling news to some, and old hat to others, despite the fact that in a perfect world none of this would ever be the case.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I know this is startling news to some, and old hat to others, despite the fact that in a perfect world none of this would ever be the case.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Terry, ole bean, the OB's were not the only situation in which the FR /WR125's ran into flatulatory distress at excursion limits, and it's not altogether clear that is was simply a matter of the high output impedance/damping factor of our favorite SE tube amps. I have on hand a flock of single driver systems with a variety of Fostex and Mark Audio drivers that do not exhibit the same symptoms with any of my tubed or SS amps.
IIRC even some class A SS had issues when the system was driven hard
of course as these events occurred several years ago, and no scientifically rigorous, double blind session notes were taken, this could all be the selective mis-rememberings of a peri-alzheimer mind
Terry, ole bean, ..... what were you saying?
merry X-mas
Heh, yeah that's a 6C21 alright, alas, it's a display piece only. The bulb is intact, but its filament and grid are literally blown to pieces!
BTW this type is a pulse switcher designed for nonlinear duty, I'm not sure if it would hold its operating point awfully well for class A operation... Killer looks though!!
I do have a couple of its little cousins, Eimac 100TH, which I'm currently building a circuit around... Long-term project, collecting parts left and right.
BTW this type is a pulse switcher designed for nonlinear duty, I'm not sure if it would hold its operating point awfully well for class A operation... Killer looks though!!
I do have a couple of its little cousins, Eimac 100TH, which I'm currently building a circuit around... Long-term project, collecting parts left and right.
looks killer, that's for sure.
and didn't the heater draw something like 18 amps...
i've got a couple, have thought about building something around them, just because the look so cool, but they're SO impractical, and when one goes bad, i have no idea where i'd ever get another...
(actually don't even know that they're both good).
i've heard a few 100TL amps, the 100TH's lo mu brother.
e.g. Experience Music, Inc - Eimac 75tl Amplifier
haven't heard anything better...
but we're getting way off topic
and didn't the heater draw something like 18 amps...
i've got a couple, have thought about building something around them, just because the look so cool, but they're SO impractical, and when one goes bad, i have no idea where i'd ever get another...
(actually don't even know that they're both good).
i've heard a few 100TL amps, the 100TH's lo mu brother.
e.g. Experience Music, Inc - Eimac 75tl Amplifier
haven't heard anything better...
but we're getting way off topic
Probably it has more to do with the driver itself. It's been pointed out before that the impedance curve has a great deal of influence as to the ability of an amp to deal with the driver and deliver an appreciable amount of bass. Damping factor and also THD are spec's that, beyond a certain point, are nearly meaningless in any way. I've said a great deal about this, in other threads on this and other forums that, due to the spirit of the Holidays, I won't bother to repeat myself.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Chris,
I don't believe that the problem had anything to do with "a matter of the high output impedance/damping factor of our favorite SE tube amps" or for that matter the higher damping factor of the SS amps. The excursion limits of the driver certainly play a part, but they were already having problems before that.
Chris, old bean, I've become suspicious that you've imbibed a bit of Nog in the early hours of this blessed morning
A Merry Christmas to you, and a Happy, Health and prosperous New Year as well!
Best Regards,
TerryO
Ever notice how funny speaker guys are?
Turntable guys are a much nicer crowd
Happy New Year to all.
Terry, I agree that some speakers just work better with tubes and others with SS. Unless consider the Mesa Boogie amps . (they can apparently swing a chunk o'current and sound pretty good with many drivers).
If the same biases and goals are shared between the designers of tubed and SS amplifiers, at least at upper price /power levels, the differences should be minimized.
I've driven fullrangers with small class AB amps, T-amps, tubes (6BM8 based), and a few others including the sand-powered McCormack. The Fostex drivers like a reduced dampening the factor, the Hemps don't care what's driving them much, the Jordans love tubes if the bandwidth is limited, else SS is the way to go. Old fullranage drivers like my Oxfords love tubes. This is just my experience and is not intended to suggest that others are wrong. (er, maybe I'm "more right"--Righter?)
anyways back to the holiday wishes for all. I'll doze off now...
Turntable guys are a much nicer crowd
Happy New Year to all.
Terry, I agree that some speakers just work better with tubes and others with SS. Unless consider the Mesa Boogie amps . (they can apparently swing a chunk o'current and sound pretty good with many drivers).
If the same biases and goals are shared between the designers of tubed and SS amplifiers, at least at upper price /power levels, the differences should be minimized.
I've driven fullrangers with small class AB amps, T-amps, tubes (6BM8 based), and a few others including the sand-powered McCormack. The Fostex drivers like a reduced dampening the factor, the Hemps don't care what's driving them much, the Jordans love tubes if the bandwidth is limited, else SS is the way to go. Old fullranage drivers like my Oxfords love tubes. This is just my experience and is not intended to suggest that others are wrong. (er, maybe I'm "more right"--Righter?)
anyways back to the holiday wishes for all. I'll doze off now...
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