Here'a a brief blurb on "chambers" (what? - where?) associated with Camoron's speakers
Have Organ, Will Travel | The Absolute Sound
Rodgers "Pinnacle of Realism" speakers appear to be common ~88dB sensitivity direct
radiator boxes including a D'Appolito arrangement 2-way. There is a higher cutoff higher sensitivity 2-way for "reeds" with cone woofer plus waveguide and compression driver
Rodgers Audio: The Pinnacle of Realism - Rodgers
Danley Sound Labs DTS20 subwoofer would be suitable for lower frequencies and something fairly easy to build. (half inch plywood couild be used such as BFM does with THTLP)
a tiny horn put in corner would do 130dB down to 100Hz - it might not go much higher than 600 (?)
DTS20 | Danley Sounds Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Have Organ, Will Travel | The Absolute Sound
Rodgers "Pinnacle of Realism" speakers appear to be common ~88dB sensitivity direct
radiator boxes including a D'Appolito arrangement 2-way. There is a higher cutoff higher sensitivity 2-way for "reeds" with cone woofer plus waveguide and compression driver
Rodgers Audio: The Pinnacle of Realism - Rodgers
Danley Sound Labs DTS20 subwoofer would be suitable for lower frequencies and something fairly easy to build. (half inch plywood couild be used such as BFM does with THTLP)
a tiny horn put in corner would do 130dB down to 100Hz - it might not go much higher than 600 (?)
DTS20 | Danley Sounds Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
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I am fascinated with organs, especially large pipe organs. I've crawled around in them enough to understand what's going on and have quite a few friends who are organists I've helped out with getting speakers and amps to work with their modern electronic versions of pipe organs.
Hauptwerk is what they are all using and it requires multiple identical channels to create the space and if set up and tuned properly it's the next best thing to actually being there and playing classic organs in European cathedrals. Sounds a bit like what your Allen is doing.
They have forums as well and playback channel speakers are a regular discussion
Hauptwerk Virtual Pipe Organ • Index page
if the powered version of Behringer's 2031 is like the passive, then it would be pretty pathetic impact wise - maybe 8-16 cabinets in a small room would work. I would throw the passive version in the can for hifi as had a pair once.
Despite the sometimes rough graphs, For a home setup and 8 channels. I would use 8 - Karlson K12 with something like Kappa12a, 8 - K-tube tweeters, and guess 8 subs - IF each channel has to be identical below 80Hz. The little K12 has a lot of power in the 100-200Hz octave. The distributive slit port of the most familiar model is something I would not use (high vent velocities - modulated noise/harmionics when fed pure tones in the vicinity of tuning) but rather a single or maybe two ports.
Those Conn-like pipe speakers look interesting - what do they have for speakers?
These Conn pipe speakers don't sound too bad
YouTube
YouTube
Despite the sometimes rough graphs, For a home setup and 8 channels. I would use 8 - Karlson K12 with something like Kappa12a, 8 - K-tube tweeters, and guess 8 subs - IF each channel has to be identical below 80Hz. The little K12 has a lot of power in the 100-200Hz octave. The distributive slit port of the most familiar model is something I would not use (high vent velocities - modulated noise/harmionics when fed pure tones in the vicinity of tuning) but rather a single or maybe two ports.
Those Conn-like pipe speakers look interesting - what do they have for speakers?
These Conn pipe speakers don't sound too bad
YouTube
YouTube
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speaking of pipe organs - here's the LARGE HOT PIPE ORGAN - love hat flame bass. I don't know if these two cuts
are of the same clarity of the little CD which was issued or not. On my headphones they sound weak. I ran one channel
into an 18" Karlson klam with EQ and 300W in my kitchen and that sounded pretty good.
IUMA: Large Hot Pipe Organ : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
are of the same clarity of the little CD which was issued or not. On my headphones they sound weak. I ran one channel
into an 18" Karlson klam with EQ and 300W in my kitchen and that sounded pretty good.
IUMA: Large Hot Pipe Organ : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
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Interesting article. I am not sure what he means about "chambers," but perhaps he means the shipping containers the speakers are in. I don't see how they would affect the sound in any meaningful way though.
Interesting link. Notice their subwoofer's output - it's 90 dB SPL at 70 Hz, but down to only 70 dB at 16 Hz. That's a 20 dB rolloff! But I'm sure they can compensate by boosting the audio output accordingly, since there's still plenty of usable output even down at 16 Hz. That's the idea I'm planning on taking advantage of.
The timing of when I hit that key, for example. The instrument plays back samples starting whenever the player depresses the key.
There are many other examples of how this same problem shows up, but this is an extreme example to illustrate the issue. For a more common example, each stop is tuned slightly differently, so if you have two stops playing very close to the same pitch, their samples will go in and out of phase as the two pitches beat against each other.
Hauptwerk is a great option, and I have been thinking about going that route, but I also like the turnkey simplicity of Allen.
That's a great idea. I'll have to check out their forums. Thanks for the suggestion!
if it was pure sinusoidal signals with little or vanishly low harmonics then yeah but organ voices contain more than pure sinusoids, no?
and i may be misunderstanding but the time interval required would need to correspond to a precise multiple of the frequency....for each key played....that's would require astounding skill to achieve...frequency modulation between two closely related pitches does occur in the acoustic domain the summing network is our ears.
and i may be misunderstanding but the time interval required would need to correspond to a precise multiple of the frequency....for each key played....that's would require astounding skill to achieve...frequency modulation between two closely related pitches does occur in the acoustic domain the summing network is our ears.
That Rodgers 2x12 cabinet is pretty practical. About 2ft deep to keep front size down and accommodate decent size vents. Appears to be tuned ~26Hz and about 3 cubic foot airspace per woofer.
this Dayton 12" looks ballpark but more xmax and a bit higher fs maybe. Qt ~0.31 would be good.
Dayton Audio DS315-8 12" Designer Series Woofer Speaker
this Dayton 12" looks ballpark but more xmax and a bit higher fs maybe. Qt ~0.31 would be good.
Dayton Audio DS315-8 12" Designer Series Woofer Speaker
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one of those Dayton 12" woofers in 64 liters volume could make a good multiway foundation solution for each channel of the organ setup so there would be no separate subwoofers needed. Tuning to fs it could be EQ-ed flat in 6th order assisted mode to 24Hz but tuned a bit higher is pretty good at 31Hz without any EQ plus transient response good
Several fullrange drivers could be used as the mid-treble section. A coax would make a 3-way.
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Several fullrange drivers could be used as the mid-treble section. A coax would make a 3-way.
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you could try to save a bit more cabinet volume with attendant tradeoffs vs ~64l
Dayton Audio DS315-8 in 3rd order and 40 liter vented boxes
Update - I think this DVC 12 is the one I bought which actually meets spec and was used by the late Marshall Leach Jr. (whose math drives hornresp)
It should make the boxes like above for $24.23 each. It could be wired for 8 ohms with two woofers for a SW6 knockoff less than $100 including the wood.
https://www.newark.com/mcm-audio-select/55-1465/woofer-12-dual-voice-coil/dp/34C6021
Dayton Audio DS315-8 in 3rd order and 40 liter vented boxes
Update - I think this DVC 12 is the one I bought which actually meets spec and was used by the late Marshall Leach Jr. (whose math drives hornresp)
It should make the boxes like above for $24.23 each. It could be wired for 8 ohms with two woofers for a SW6 knockoff less than $100 including the wood.
https://www.newark.com/mcm-audio-select/55-1465/woofer-12-dual-voice-coil/dp/34C6021
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Here's how that MCM 55-1485 DVC woofer should perform in a Rodgers SW6 box with each driver's coils wired in series for a nominal 8 ohm load for both woofers wired in parallel.
less than $50 for TWO drivers (sans shipping - sometimes coupons can be found for MCM/Newark for discounts - free shipping)
Being cheap with one woofer per channel, that's $193.84 driver cost for 8 channels of low bass.
excursion maximum occurs around 41Hz - power handling below that point down to 26Hz would be pretty good.
less than $50 for TWO drivers (sans shipping - sometimes coupons can be found for MCM/Newark for discounts - free shipping)
Being cheap with one woofer per channel, that's $193.84 driver cost for 8 channels of low bass.
excursion maximum occurs around 41Hz - power handling below that point down to 26Hz would be pretty good.
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Any waveform will show the same problem if the two signals contain similar harmonic content and are very close in frequency. You're right that trying to hit the exact timing to cause the two signals to cancel each other out would be nigh unto impossible to do manually. However, consider holding one note for the one signal, and playing repeated notes, several per second, for the other signal. Each one is a random trial which will end up adding the two waves together at some phase combination. Each one is going to get a different amount of constructive or destructive interference, making the same note sound different each time it's played. When you hear that as a player, it is very annoying and just sounds bad. Organ manufacturers go to great lengths to try to avoid this, but it's next to impossible to eliminate completely without more audio channels.
Thanks for all those ideas with that Dayton 12" woofer! I'll have to play around with that one myself. I've been trying to start reading up on good subwoofer designs too, and this certainly helps.
Just to clarify - the Hornresp models are not based on the work of Marshall Leach.
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