Hi to all, i have some speakers unused... so im thinking about a small pa for small live performance.
I have 4 eminence beta 8" and 4 ciare pt383 and a 15" RCF.
- subwoofer.... i was thinking about to make a cabinet reflex: simple and small.
- satellite speakers: i already tried beta 8" and pt383 togheter... sound nicely but i dont want make 4 speakers, i was thinking to combine 2x10" and 2 tweeter unit: total 2 speakers. What i need is a PA with a nice orizzontal dispersion, generally pubs and indoor places are small, and people are all around in front of band. So i need something that work widely.
I was thinking to make a plywood cabinets maybe like MONTARBO E616 with a double tweeter in center? Maybe offaxis speakers ? Some ideas?
I have 4 eminence beta 8" and 4 ciare pt383 and a 15" RCF.
- subwoofer.... i was thinking about to make a cabinet reflex: simple and small.
- satellite speakers: i already tried beta 8" and pt383 togheter... sound nicely but i dont want make 4 speakers, i was thinking to combine 2x10" and 2 tweeter unit: total 2 speakers. What i need is a PA with a nice orizzontal dispersion, generally pubs and indoor places are small, and people are all around in front of band. So i need something that work widely.
I was thinking to make a plywood cabinets maybe like MONTARBO E616 with a double tweeter in center? Maybe offaxis speakers ? Some ideas?
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First of all get the speakers off the ground to about head height. Nothing like bodies to absorb sound.
Then even 50 watts will be enough power.
Then even 50 watts will be enough power.
Of course, will be upped on a stand, subwoofer on the floor. 900 w rms at subwoofer, about 400 + 400 w on front (parallel speakers)
I wouldn´t use silk dome tweeters in a PA setup.
Montarbo uses a driver and horn there, easily 10dB or more higher efficiency and probably 2X to 4X the power handling.
At least put a car lightbulb, say 12V 15W , in series with each tweeter so in principle it acts as a protector and eventually as a fuse.
Otherwise your tweeters will last up to 1 millisecond after the first feedback squeal.
Besides that, system will sound weird, you will have a "hole" at important mid-high frequencies , where Beta 8" is slow and muddy and tweeter has not yet started to work.
Think between 2000 and 4000 Hz or so ... very important vocal and acoustic instrument frequencies.
Get something similar to what Montarbo uses, and a similar frequency and slope crossover, although they use biamplification which is way safer.
Montarbo uses a driver and horn there, easily 10dB or more higher efficiency and probably 2X to 4X the power handling.
At least put a car lightbulb, say 12V 15W , in series with each tweeter so in principle it acts as a protector and eventually as a fuse.
Otherwise your tweeters will last up to 1 millisecond after the first feedback squeal.
Besides that, system will sound weird, you will have a "hole" at important mid-high frequencies , where Beta 8" is slow and muddy and tweeter has not yet started to work.
Think between 2000 and 4000 Hz or so ... very important vocal and acoustic instrument frequencies.
Get something similar to what Montarbo uses, and a similar frequency and slope crossover, although they use biamplification which is way safer.
Ciare PT383 is 300w (120W AES) 1000hz FS 1.5" 94db wave guide, back loaded silkdome tweeter...
Is pretty strong, i tryed togheter at 1500hz 18db/oct with beta 8A and didnt sound weird to me... maybe a little bit blind on very high freq.
TW have same 94 db of Beta 8, i didnt use any partitor so.
I was thinking to use a vertical dappolito WTTW reflex.
Is pretty strong, i tryed togheter at 1500hz 18db/oct with beta 8A and didnt sound weird to me... maybe a little bit blind on very high freq.
TW have same 94 db of Beta 8, i didnt use any partitor so.
I was thinking to use a vertical dappolito WTTW reflex.
i'm going to second JM Fahey here, a tweeter on a shallow waveguide is not the way to go for PA
nothing wrong with a D'Appolito style arrangement.
i would be cautious of going too wide with horizontal dispersion to minimize feedback from open microphones.
the Ciare brand was well regarded stuff in the past and has been acquired by 18Sound so should be back to it's former reputation.
nothing wrong with a D'Appolito style arrangement.
i would be cautious of going too wide with horizontal dispersion to minimize feedback from open microphones.
the Ciare brand was well regarded stuff in the past and has been acquired by 18Sound so should be back to it's former reputation.
Why? i mean, if i have no sensitivity or power handling problem, where is the issue? dispesiom?
dispersion is a good thing controlled dispersion is better when it comes to live sound.
if your planning on using two tweeters per box have you looked at the center to center distance to see if any issues show up? a quick look at the overall diameter has me thinking you would need to push the x-over frequency up past 2.2k to avoid on axis dip there and taking the beta 8's into beaming territory ( controlling off axis response is important and you don't want to give yourself more work designing a crossover do you?)
this is a situation involving open microphones is it not?
how many musicians and what type of music?
if your planning on using two tweeters per box have you looked at the center to center distance to see if any issues show up? a quick look at the overall diameter has me thinking you would need to push the x-over frequency up past 2.2k to avoid on axis dip there and taking the beta 8's into beaming territory ( controlling off axis response is important and you don't want to give yourself more work designing a crossover do you?)
this is a situation involving open microphones is it not?
how many musicians and what type of music?
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Generally 2 dinamic cardiod mic (voice) guitars bass, drum (sometimes with mics)... classical configuration. Generally in small places, type of music: my girl jazz, me metal...
About distances, cutoff and orientation: some software in order to try to calculate issues?
About distances, cutoff and orientation: some software in order to try to calculate issues?
I wouldn't put a live drum kit through a system with a dome tweeter.
They're good HF units, and I'd be very interested in using them for larger studio monitors (6" mid, 15" bass), but compression drivers are typically 10dB more efficient with similar power handling. To make that difference back up, you need 10x more power, and suddenly the dome tweeters won't make sound any more.
For singer & guitar, controlled SPLs, then you might just get away with it if you've got a good sound engineer that's sympathetic to the limitations of the system.
For live metal, you're going to need more output.
I'd sell the Ciare tweeters in favour of a good compression driver and horn. Go TMM so the HF drivers are up high. A good compression driver (3" diaphragm, 1.4" exit) will cross at 1kHz, no problem. That will get you controlled dispersion across the mid-high range, and keep away from the resonances of the 8" cones.
Chris
They're good HF units, and I'd be very interested in using them for larger studio monitors (6" mid, 15" bass), but compression drivers are typically 10dB more efficient with similar power handling. To make that difference back up, you need 10x more power, and suddenly the dome tweeters won't make sound any more.
For singer & guitar, controlled SPLs, then you might just get away with it if you've got a good sound engineer that's sympathetic to the limitations of the system.
For live metal, you're going to need more output.
I'd sell the Ciare tweeters in favour of a good compression driver and horn. Go TMM so the HF drivers are up high. A good compression driver (3" diaphragm, 1.4" exit) will cross at 1kHz, no problem. That will get you controlled dispersion across the mid-high range, and keep away from the resonances of the 8" cones.
Chris
Any suggestion to nice price/ quality solution? for horn ill make directly on speaker baffle with my cnc router.... ill just need some project about
I use an 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94 horn. Works well, sounds good. I usually cross to the 2x10"s at around 800Hz.
I think it will be difficult to make a horn like that on the baffle of a speaker, but it would be interesting to try.
Chris
I think it will be difficult to make a horn like that on the baffle of a speaker, but it would be interesting to try.
Chris
or milling from baffle ( with back wood block glued ) or 3d printed... just in need of drawing in order to replicate
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