Hello everyone!
I've just signed up so please excuse my lack of activity in the forum.
Recently I sold my SVS PC4000 and I've been looking to go down the DIY route.
I've had some experience with a DIY subwoofer before - but I literally just wired everything up.
This is my current room (see attached image). I have a space behind my sofa (if moved forward) that can accommodate an enclosure/s up to a combined total of: 118" wide x 14" deep x 31.5" tall (about 30 ft3) - however this space also needs to accommodate the amplifier.
I sold my PC4000 because although it had some quite nice low end rumble, it severely lacked midbass impact. My girlfriend also prefers the idea of having the subwoofers "hidden" away behind the sofa.
I've been watching some tutorials on WinISD, but I'm just struggling to get to grips with it all. I've also messed about with SubBox Pro. I can't decide on what would be the best configuration balance of: number of enclosures, size of enclosures, which drivers etc.
I had originally thought two enclosures, one with a UM18-22 and the other with something like a 18TBW100. The Dayton being tuned to a lower frequency for more ULF and the B&C being tuned higher for midbass duties.
I came across this design which uses a NSW6021-6 in a sealed ~6 ft3 box and it seems to perform really well for the size. Would 21" be overkill for me?
My room is about 2150 ft3 split in to: a main listening room (1750 ft3) and an attached corridor (400 ft3). However, I'll be moving in a couple of years to a larger place, and the living is likely to be double the size that it is now. When that time comes, I'll be happy to repurpose the drivers/amps in to the appropriate enclosures then if needs be.
My budget is about $2500 USD (but I can stretch a bit more). I live in Singapore so while getting things shipped here is expensive, it isn't impossible.
Any advice is most welcome.
Thanks!
I've just signed up so please excuse my lack of activity in the forum.
Recently I sold my SVS PC4000 and I've been looking to go down the DIY route.
I've had some experience with a DIY subwoofer before - but I literally just wired everything up.
This is my current room (see attached image). I have a space behind my sofa (if moved forward) that can accommodate an enclosure/s up to a combined total of: 118" wide x 14" deep x 31.5" tall (about 30 ft3) - however this space also needs to accommodate the amplifier.
I sold my PC4000 because although it had some quite nice low end rumble, it severely lacked midbass impact. My girlfriend also prefers the idea of having the subwoofers "hidden" away behind the sofa.
I've been watching some tutorials on WinISD, but I'm just struggling to get to grips with it all. I've also messed about with SubBox Pro. I can't decide on what would be the best configuration balance of: number of enclosures, size of enclosures, which drivers etc.
I had originally thought two enclosures, one with a UM18-22 and the other with something like a 18TBW100. The Dayton being tuned to a lower frequency for more ULF and the B&C being tuned higher for midbass duties.
I came across this design which uses a NSW6021-6 in a sealed ~6 ft3 box and it seems to perform really well for the size. Would 21" be overkill for me?
My room is about 2150 ft3 split in to: a main listening room (1750 ft3) and an attached corridor (400 ft3). However, I'll be moving in a couple of years to a larger place, and the living is likely to be double the size that it is now. When that time comes, I'll be happy to repurpose the drivers/amps in to the appropriate enclosures then if needs be.
My budget is about $2500 USD (but I can stretch a bit more). I live in Singapore so while getting things shipped here is expensive, it isn't impossible.
Any advice is most welcome.
Thanks!
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Midbass from behind won't be any good, you would want to cross the subwoofer at a low enough frequency that you can't locate it.
And placement of the subwoofer can be more critical than what kind you get, if it comes to that.
You can do room simulations to see what the bass respons looks like, many times it's better to have a couple of subwoofers placed on opposite ends of the room.
And placement of the subwoofer can be more critical than what kind you get, if it comes to that.
You can do room simulations to see what the bass respons looks like, many times it's better to have a couple of subwoofers placed on opposite ends of the room.
I think near field subs are great. I had a diy sub using a HST18 from Stereo Integrity directly behind my main listening seat. I used it for movies but mostly for music. I crossed it over at 70db 24db/octave from a beringer amp with DSP. Once I tweaked the eq a bit I was amazing how well it integrated with the mains. I learned that it was really distracting if the driver faced the back of the couch. There was too much impact in my back and it didn't make sense if you want instruments taking shape in front of you. Firing at the floor was perfect. The tactile sensation was excellent and the pressure waves made if feel like the room was coming apart.
I have no doubt you could improve things with the space you have. Maybe 3 or 4 12" drivers lined up behind the couch. If you invest in really good drivers you can always reconfigure if you move to a different space or don't like the results of your first temp. Maybe look the CSS SDX12.
I have no doubt you could improve things with the space you have. Maybe 3 or 4 12" drivers lined up behind the couch. If you invest in really good drivers you can always reconfigure if you move to a different space or don't like the results of your first temp. Maybe look the CSS SDX12.
Greets!
How do you plan to fit drivers > 12" in a 14" o.d. width?
THX limits LFE to 120 Hz and mid-bass extends to 250 Hz, though 'boom/punch' is limited to ~180 Hz, so potentially 'we' want a ~16-250 Hz BW (~ 4 octaves) to cover all music/most movie soundtracks, a lot to 'demand' from true sub-woofers.
How do you plan to fit drivers > 12" in a 14" o.d. width?
THX limits LFE to 120 Hz and mid-bass extends to 250 Hz, though 'boom/punch' is limited to ~180 Hz, so potentially 'we' want a ~16-250 Hz BW (~ 4 octaves) to cover all music/most movie soundtracks, a lot to 'demand' from true sub-woofers.
Thanks for the replies, definitely some stuff worth digesting.
What if the drivers faced the wall instead of the sofa? Or, what if I built in a panel which covered the drivers so they don't fire directly in to the sofa? (although why not just have the drivers facing the wall?)
I just did some reading on the CSS SDX12 and it seems like a great driver. It is 8 3/4" deep so it could fit in the 14" depth easily. I'll try do some modelling of 3 or 4 of them in WinISD.
Good point. I definitely don't want something that's audibly directional coming from behind me. As for subwoofer placement, in my room I'm a little limited.
It's a 14" depth. A lot of the 12" drivers are below 9" deep which gives me some clearance at the back of the driver. A UM18-22 is 10.2" and even a NSW6021-6 is 11.08" deep.
What if the drivers faced the wall instead of the sofa? Or, what if I built in a panel which covered the drivers so they don't fire directly in to the sofa? (although why not just have the drivers facing the wall?)
I just did some reading on the CSS SDX12 and it seems like a great driver. It is 8 3/4" deep so it could fit in the 14" depth easily. I'll try do some modelling of 3 or 4 of them in WinISD.
Good point. I definitely don't want something that's audibly directional coming from behind me. As for subwoofer placement, in my room I'm a little limited.
It's a 14" depth. A lot of the 12" drivers are below 9" deep which gives me some clearance at the back of the driver. A UM18-22 is 10.2" and even a NSW6021-6 is 11.08" deep.
I'm not seeing how you're going to move the current sofa out by over a foot without seriously impacting traffic flow through the room. Are you going to remove the L part of the sofa to do that? If that is the plan, you could also leave the straight part of the sofa where it is and replace the L part with a subwoofer built into a coffee table (assuming you have the skills to finish to that level).
Another option may be to put a sub under the dining table. From your diagram it looks like you may be able to fit something against the wall there. Obviously that assumes there's a mains outlet there. The signal can be handled wirelessly.
Another option may be to put a sub under the dining table. From your diagram it looks like you may be able to fit something against the wall there. Obviously that assumes there's a mains outlet there. The signal can be handled wirelessly.
Thanks for the reply.
The sofa already sits about 8" off the wall as I've got a little stand back there for drinks. I can also move the TV cabinet back by 6" easily so hopefully with an increased distance to 14" it won't impacting any walking space.
The sofa will be staying in its current configuration and no plans for a coffee table. Unfortunately the idea under the dining table is also a no-go, we move the table out a lot when friends come and it just isn't feasible.
So, for now I'm going to continue pursuing the idea of a sub tucked away behind the sofa. If all else fails, I'll just put a subwoofer where the PC4000 used to be.
Drivers facing the wall might work well. I didn't try it since my cabinet was too deep but I can't image it would be much different from facing the floor. One could always build a single cube shaped cabinet and experiment.
Maybe something like this
https://www.leonspeakers.com/residential/series/aaros/a10-ut
Small, compact, closed box ... but you will have to use DSP to apply linkwitz transform
It is using SB acoustics shallow subwoofer 10' SW26DBAC76
https://sbacoustics.com/product/10in-sw26dbac76-8/
There was dual voice version, but I think 8 or 4 ohm would do the trick just fine...but, I'm not an expert
Any way, this SBa shallow subwoofer + hypex FA501 plate amplifier with DSP would fit into budget and mide be what you looking for.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/ampl...w-dsp-adau1450-dac-ak4454-192khz-p-13529.html
https://www.leonspeakers.com/residential/series/aaros/a10-ut
Small, compact, closed box ... but you will have to use DSP to apply linkwitz transform
It is using SB acoustics shallow subwoofer 10' SW26DBAC76
https://sbacoustics.com/product/10in-sw26dbac76-8/
There was dual voice version, but I think 8 or 4 ohm would do the trick just fine...but, I'm not an expert
Any way, this SBa shallow subwoofer + hypex FA501 plate amplifier with DSP would fit into budget and mide be what you looking for.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/ampl...w-dsp-adau1450-dac-ak4454-192khz-p-13529.html
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Many years ago I coined the phrase 'Move a Lot of Air - GENTLY' and nothing in the subsequent four decades or so has convinced me otherwise. All other thing being equal, a small driver flapping around at Xmax will never sound as good as a huge one barely moving. 21" drivers represent good value for money in terms of displacement volume per £££, however I am not over-familiar with the new driver you mention. It's certainly one of the most expensive 21" drivers around Beyma B&C, and RCF being considerably cheaper. Curiously, I have found that calculations for a cylindrical enclosure with a length equal to the speaker diameter often approximates to the correct Q!
As a rule, compression ratio in a sealed enclosure (Vd/Vb) should not exceed 5%, which is usually the case when a sensible alignment is chosen, but this and the Q I have not calculated for the DataBass test design. (I always aim for a critically damped system Q of 0.5). I would go for a design such as this without a second thought - team it with an approximation to a Linkwitz Transform-type EQ, a genuine 2kW output transformer-based PA amp, and enjoy, but up to no more than 100Hz or so. A sub is not for anything approaching midrange as you will be able to audibly locate it, and as a final touch be sure to filter out all the bass reaching the main speakers to take the load off, so to speak.
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Hello again,
After a busy year, I'm back!
What MrKlinky said about moving a lot of air gently really struck a chord with me. As such I decided to go with 4 x 18" nearfield subs. Towards the end of 2022 I worked with someone to design a relatively slim sealed enclosure that would go behind my sofa. The idea is to have 4 of these in a row as nearfield subs. The subs are going to use BMS 18N862 drivers.
I've just got the first one built and it's woring fine. However, then I put my hand on the cabinet there's a slight vibration. It isn't audible and it isn't causing any problems, but it's more that you can feel the pressure of the driver compressing the air inside the box.
Is this normal or should the box be more inert with no sense of movement?
The box is made from 18mm baltic birch with a double front baffle. It's screw'd and glue'd to high heaven and there's internal bracing too. I've also stuffed the box with polyfill and have run sealant around all corners of the box interally. The box is definitely well sealed.
So, I'm unsure about the vibration which I'm feeling in the box. I'd say there's a relatively equal vibration on the top, the sides and even the back. It isn't horrendous, but it's enough to notice it when you put your hand on the cabinet.
What do you think? Does it sound ok or do you think there's an issue?
Thank you.
After a busy year, I'm back!
What MrKlinky said about moving a lot of air gently really struck a chord with me. As such I decided to go with 4 x 18" nearfield subs. Towards the end of 2022 I worked with someone to design a relatively slim sealed enclosure that would go behind my sofa. The idea is to have 4 of these in a row as nearfield subs. The subs are going to use BMS 18N862 drivers.
I've just got the first one built and it's woring fine. However, then I put my hand on the cabinet there's a slight vibration. It isn't audible and it isn't causing any problems, but it's more that you can feel the pressure of the driver compressing the air inside the box.
Is this normal or should the box be more inert with no sense of movement?
The box is made from 18mm baltic birch with a double front baffle. It's screw'd and glue'd to high heaven and there's internal bracing too. I've also stuffed the box with polyfill and have run sealant around all corners of the box interally. The box is definitely well sealed.
So, I'm unsure about the vibration which I'm feeling in the box. I'd say there's a relatively equal vibration on the top, the sides and even the back. It isn't horrendous, but it's enough to notice it when you put your hand on the cabinet.
What do you think? Does it sound ok or do you think there's an issue?
Thank you.
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Short answer: I think you're fine. If it sounds good, it is good.
Longer answer: Even on highly braced, well reviewed speakers that sound like you're knocking on a solid block, you can still feel slight vibration once you get above background listening levels.
In a subwoofer, the panel resonances tend to be higher frequency than the pass band, so they're not excited to a high level. Being lower level, they're also more likely to be well below the level of the main speakers. You often see commercial subwoofers of good quality with minimal or no bracing.
Longer answer: Even on highly braced, well reviewed speakers that sound like you're knocking on a solid block, you can still feel slight vibration once you get above background listening levels.
In a subwoofer, the panel resonances tend to be higher frequency than the pass band, so they're not excited to a high level. Being lower level, they're also more likely to be well below the level of the main speakers. You often see commercial subwoofers of good quality with minimal or no bracing.
Thanks for the reply. I soldiered on today and started testing, MiniDSP'ing, REW'ing and Dirac'ing.
Once everything was EQ'd the vibration on the panels of the box greatly reduced.
I must say, the thing which I was most satisfied with today was how the grille turned out. The box is designed this way so that the sofa can safely push up againt the box without it touching the driver and to ensure the driver has enough room to breathe. I used gasket tape diretly on to the wood then wrapped it in an acoustically transparent fabric. It was so snug and couldn't move at all, so zero rattle!
I must admit, having tried to stain baltic birch, I'll never do it again. Next time I would fill in the screw holes, then probably paint or vinyl it as it currently looks a bit of a mess. Thankfully as it's tucked behind the sofa the wife will let me get away with it.
It may not be slim by some standards, but considering it's an 18" driver, the box being 37cm deep isn't too bad! My sofa has only moved forward about 15cm compared to before.
So, how does it sound? Well, this is just one box so far, I need to make another three, but I've never felt bass like this. It's so tight, deep and fast. It just sounds so effortless, and as it's nearfield it really puts a lot of energy in to the sofa with a satisfying rumble without being too overbearing.
Once everything was EQ'd the vibration on the panels of the box greatly reduced.
I must say, the thing which I was most satisfied with today was how the grille turned out. The box is designed this way so that the sofa can safely push up againt the box without it touching the driver and to ensure the driver has enough room to breathe. I used gasket tape diretly on to the wood then wrapped it in an acoustically transparent fabric. It was so snug and couldn't move at all, so zero rattle!
I must admit, having tried to stain baltic birch, I'll never do it again. Next time I would fill in the screw holes, then probably paint or vinyl it as it currently looks a bit of a mess. Thankfully as it's tucked behind the sofa the wife will let me get away with it.
It may not be slim by some standards, but considering it's an 18" driver, the box being 37cm deep isn't too bad! My sofa has only moved forward about 15cm compared to before.
So, how does it sound? Well, this is just one box so far, I need to make another three, but I've never felt bass like this. It's so tight, deep and fast. It just sounds so effortless, and as it's nearfield it really puts a lot of energy in to the sofa with a satisfying rumble without being too overbearing.
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Since you have a few more to practice on, you may want to try a wood conditioner next time.
This was just one of the first search results I got. I don't have direct experience with any particular brand, just know it's a thing.
https://www.minwax.com/en/products/preparation/pre-stain-wood-conditioner
"Can be applied over any wood but is especially necessary when working with soft or porous woods like pine, alder, birch, and maple."
A couple more ideas here, and the conditioner.
This was just one of the first search results I got. I don't have direct experience with any particular brand, just know it's a thing.
https://www.minwax.com/en/products/preparation/pre-stain-wood-conditioner
"Can be applied over any wood but is especially necessary when working with soft or porous woods like pine, alder, birch, and maple."
A couple more ideas here, and the conditioner.