I recently posted up a request for good sources of OCC wire to make some nice DIY cables of all sorts. I'm still waiting on the materials to make the cables, but I was wondering what the community here thinks about the possibility of higher-purity single-crystal wire having better signal transmission properties than the same gauge of wire made up of many grains?
Here's the theory as I understand it (copied and pasted from my forum posting asking for sources of OCC wire):
Everything made of atoms has a structure to it. In metals, this structure is crystalline below specific temperatures (when they are solid), which occurs at a different temperature for each metal. Take a look at some of these microstructures of the crystals that make up metals:
And wherever the crystal structures (or "grains") meet within the material, you have microscopic "grain boundaries," like this:
When electricity travels through material, it has an easier time (less resistance) flowing across fewer grain boundaries. Electricity obviously jumps gaps, either at the atomic level, or at the macro level like how electric current can literally jump across the air from a door handle to your fingertips when you have enough of an charge-differential between yourself and the door handle, say after your feet have exchanged enough electrons with a wool rug.
Check out this primer on the flow of electrons to create electric current >>
The organization of the crystalline structure of a metal wire is dependent upon the purity of the material used, and more importantly the manufacturing process of the wire itself. By using casting techniques at controlled temperatures, it is possible to create metal materials which are organized as one continuous crystal structure as opposed to a fractured assembly of crystal structures, with far fewer grain boundaries. One guy who did this is Dr. Ohno (queue that awful TikTok song) who patented the "Ohno Continuous Casting" process (OCC).
Here are microphotographs of the crystal structure in OFC (oxygen free copper) vs OCC copper for illustration:
So far these are well-settled scientific facts, not audio theory.
The theory is that by allowing the modulating voltage of the signal to move more continuously along a single crystal structure, unimpeded by the normal breakages you'd find in the many-crystal formation of the regular metal material, you will get a smoother signal.
I have heard the argument that resistance is resistance, and that's how wire should be measured. That feels a bit like comparing 90 mph in a Ford Taurus vs 90 mph in a Porsche 911. The speed gun shows 90 mph on either one, right? But your experience of traveling that same speed in a vehicle designed for high speed will result in a smoother ride. The comparison here refers to the musicality of a cable. Maybe resistance isn't just resistance, and maybe there are other factors involved which do affect the end result that reaches our ears, which we are more sensitive to, and which don't have discrete measurements.
It would be cool if everyone could stay respectful in this, sticking to your own opinion without judging others' opinions. I'm just wondering what everyone's take is on this.
So...can a single continuous crystal structure of metal material help audio signal transmission? Would single-crystal metal make no difference whatsoever? What do you think?
Here's the theory as I understand it (copied and pasted from my forum posting asking for sources of OCC wire):
Everything made of atoms has a structure to it. In metals, this structure is crystalline below specific temperatures (when they are solid), which occurs at a different temperature for each metal. Take a look at some of these microstructures of the crystals that make up metals:
And wherever the crystal structures (or "grains") meet within the material, you have microscopic "grain boundaries," like this:
When electricity travels through material, it has an easier time (less resistance) flowing across fewer grain boundaries. Electricity obviously jumps gaps, either at the atomic level, or at the macro level like how electric current can literally jump across the air from a door handle to your fingertips when you have enough of an charge-differential between yourself and the door handle, say after your feet have exchanged enough electrons with a wool rug.
Check out this primer on the flow of electrons to create electric current >>
The organization of the crystalline structure of a metal wire is dependent upon the purity of the material used, and more importantly the manufacturing process of the wire itself. By using casting techniques at controlled temperatures, it is possible to create metal materials which are organized as one continuous crystal structure as opposed to a fractured assembly of crystal structures, with far fewer grain boundaries. One guy who did this is Dr. Ohno (queue that awful TikTok song) who patented the "Ohno Continuous Casting" process (OCC).
Here are microphotographs of the crystal structure in OFC (oxygen free copper) vs OCC copper for illustration:
So far these are well-settled scientific facts, not audio theory.
The theory is that by allowing the modulating voltage of the signal to move more continuously along a single crystal structure, unimpeded by the normal breakages you'd find in the many-crystal formation of the regular metal material, you will get a smoother signal.
I have heard the argument that resistance is resistance, and that's how wire should be measured. That feels a bit like comparing 90 mph in a Ford Taurus vs 90 mph in a Porsche 911. The speed gun shows 90 mph on either one, right? But your experience of traveling that same speed in a vehicle designed for high speed will result in a smoother ride. The comparison here refers to the musicality of a cable. Maybe resistance isn't just resistance, and maybe there are other factors involved which do affect the end result that reaches our ears, which we are more sensitive to, and which don't have discrete measurements.
It would be cool if everyone could stay respectful in this, sticking to your own opinion without judging others' opinions. I'm just wondering what everyone's take is on this.
So...can a single continuous crystal structure of metal material help audio signal transmission? Would single-crystal metal make no difference whatsoever? What do you think?
Where is this "theory" originating from? Quotes please? As you wrote it, from a physics perspective, it doesn't make any sense. It ignores and misinterprets the well studied conduction mechanisms in solids.
Is this "theory" valid for audio signals only, or it applies to any kind of signals?
The papers themselves could have plenty of incorrect logic or measuring. If so, that's what I'm wondering from this community! Which specific parts of these theses are not correct?
Aggregated a few articles
Journal of Applied Physics:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.322907
Journal of Materials Science:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00550246
Article on single crystal copper showing more conductivity than silver:
Single Crystal Copper More Conductive than Silver
Thesis on Nanocrystalline Copper for Printed Wire Board:
Nanocrystalline Copper for PWB
Journal of Applied Physics:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.322907
Journal of Materials Science:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00550246
Article on single crystal copper showing more conductivity than silver:
Single Crystal Copper More Conductive than Silver
Thesis on Nanocrystalline Copper for Printed Wire Board:
Nanocrystalline Copper for PWB
Can you link to some of those results? They sound important.
I agree that construction is more important than material. But that does not answer the question about whether or not the crystal structure within the material should have an effect on the sound produced. It answers a separate question about how import it is to have good solid cable construction first, which I do agree with.
For this conversation, let's assume best case scenario for construction. I don't think we'd be talking night and day here (despite what some folks will say), but if crystal structure can have any affect at all, I would want to keep it as consideration for any cables I make. Given a good solid construction and geometry, what are your thoughts on single crystal wire being able to produce slightly better results?
@Evenharmonics asked this question in another related thread, so I'll post it here:
I think it's a good question. Evenharmonics, what are your thoughts? Any opinion on the papers linked to above?
I think it's a good question. Evenharmonics, what are your thoughts? Any opinion on the papers linked to above?
Well it was you who claimed, and I quote: "as I believe the theory behind single crystal structure is sound" - why don't you sum it up for us?
And two threads, really?? I think you went overboard with this completely.
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And two threads, really?? I think you went overboard with this completely.
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Hey there, glad to see your input!
You are referring to my other post about where to source OCC. Not sure if you read the intro post on this thread, but I did refer to the other one. This thread is a different topic, not related to sourcing material at all.
This thread is about the possibility of reaping audio benefits of such material. There is evidence that it could offer benefits, but there may also be evidence that it absolutely does not. I am open to either.
The theory I laid out above (that fewer grain boundaries results in better signal transmission, possibly in measurable and possibly in unmeasurable ways) is the one that makes the most sense to me at the moment.
The reason I created this topic is because I am open to other opinions, and I trust this community to offer them!
Sir, you behave like a clueless troll. I hope this thread will be closed before you will have the opportunity to do more damage to physics and yourself.
I’m sorry you feel that way 🙁
I do think they are two separate questions, both with separate merit on a DIY audio forum.
1. Sourcing material
2. Merits of different materials
I understand that you don’t agree with me. That’s the nature of forums! I value different opinions though, even when folks with different opinions don’t value mine.
This is an exploration of knowledge via the members of this forum on this topic: Materials matter, but to what extent is somewhat unknown. I hope to learn more from the knowledgeable folks here!
Perpetually bored?
As far as science is concerned there is no difference between conductors that can lead to audible differences. Is it not obvious?
I’m perpetually interested in things, and in others’ opinions about things!
All necessary aspects of the usability was discussed in the other thread as I see it - thread title or not.
Posting a lot of links is just tiresome - you claimed you know the benefits, please sum them up here, as you see them, and educate the forum?
Whats the next threads we can await from you?
... after 15 years, this... :-D
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Posting a lot of links is just tiresome - you claimed you know the benefits, please sum them up here, as you see them, and educate the forum?
Whats the next threads we can await from you?
- How to terminate an OFC cable?
- What plugs for OCC copper based cables?
- Which direction for OCC wire?
- OFC or OCC for morning listening session? Or both?
... after 15 years, this... :-D
//
There is no need for personal attack. The haters as always are the one who might get this thread locked due to their attacking language.
So? Why does the conductivity matter for a domestic environment.
(Hint, it doesn't)
Not that I give two hoots, an enjoyable irony in the obsession over conductor 'purity' is that, assuming EM is applied, said 'purity' or otherwise of the wire that acts as a waveguide is neither hear nor there. 😉