Really Peter? That's interesting. I agree it is probably as blind as you can get. Sh*t. I don't like that. Goes against my 'religion'.
Let me think it over (give me time to get rid of that egg in my face). I mean, you ARE serious, aren't you?
Jan Didden
Let me think it over (give me time to get rid of that egg in my face). I mean, you ARE serious, aren't you?
Jan Didden
I can believe that. Depending on your power supply, diode ringing can be a problem. I used MURs in my DAC, but that's filtered and regulated multiple times so I doubt it makes a difference. Regardless of diode, a snubber across the transformer secondaries would help a lot.
http://www.hagtech.com/pdf/snubber.pdf
I simulated various setups in LTSpice, and it can make a (small) difference in even filtered output. But since the ringing is high frequency, it can couple to things that are not directly connected, by EMI.
http://www.hagtech.com/pdf/snubber.pdf
I simulated various setups in LTSpice, and it can make a (small) difference in even filtered output. But since the ringing is high frequency, it can couple to things that are not directly connected, by EMI.
Yes, I am serious. I still didn't form my religion because of that, but I prefer to keep an open mind though, just in case there is more to that😉janneman said:
janneman, let this not affect your worldview. Many things can make a difference that would initially seem unlikely, such as diodes, capacitors (but I mean as difference between electrolytics and film, say, rather than between different film types which is a bit pushing it), potentiometers (parasitic capacitance affects the frequency response), etc. But come on, some people believe cables are directional (the microdiode nonsense which has been rebuffed), or that silver sounds different, and so on. Now that's a bit much.
Even if someone could really (as in a blind test) hear silver different from copper in the same configuration, I'd bet no one could hear nor measure the difference between, say, three-nines and four-nines purity silver, and yet when I was emailing to Venhaus regarding his silver/teflon interconnect design, he empathically told me that the extra nine makes all the difference... 😱
Even if someone could really (as in a blind test) hear silver different from copper in the same configuration, I'd bet no one could hear nor measure the difference between, say, three-nines and four-nines purity silver, and yet when I was emailing to Venhaus regarding his silver/teflon interconnect design, he empathically told me that the extra nine makes all the difference... 😱
Prune said:
OK, fine, in theory at least you can generate cross-talk cancellation signals and also develop specific HRTF for an individual to create surround sound... which would work if you kept you head absolutely locked in a vice, had algorithms available to actually implement this strategy, and also figured in room correction.
I maintain that any practical implementation of two-channel stereo, including any implementation any has ever used in their home to date, is still fundamentally limited and inaccurate. I also maintain that any two-channel system the vast majority of consumers are likely to implement in their home in the forseeable future will still be fundamentally limited and inaccurate. After all, it's easy enough to say that you can generate a signal to do such and such... another matter entirely to actually do it in a practical manner.
That being the case, my original point, being that those regarding two-channel as holy (CURRENT two channel systems, mind you) and multichannel as "processed" are silly, is still a true and valid point.
Steve Eddy said:
Well, I suppose we'll just have to disagree. In general, I'm all for the free market system, even when I think the results are less than optimal (and yes, that can happen). On the whole I believe it produces the greatest variety of goods, the lowest average prices, and the most generalized progress. I just don't assume that it works that way in every specific case, 100% of the time.
To be more specific, I believe it quite possible that by "buying and enjoying" what a specific person enjoys it can have an impact on the potential or future enjoyment of others to the same or related products. Since those other persons are not there at the time of purchase, their marginal cost/benefit is not included in the supply/demand equation that achieves an equlilbrium price. i.e., you're buying and enjoying an esoteric cable may have some very small but non-zero effect on my own ability to buy and enjoy a product in the future (e.g., by affecting the ultimate price, or by affecting what is actually available at some time in the future).
You state that if people didn't enjoy a product then it would simply go away in the market system. The same can be said for a hard drug, like crack. Is the guy who loses his wife because of a crack related robbery not affected by the initial crack purchase? Likewise, but on a vastly smaller scale, am I not ultimately affected by an esoteric cable purchase?
It may seem a small effect, and I generally make it a point not to make a big deal out of it (because, as I said, I prefer the free market system with all its mistakes and "government corrections" to the various alternatives), but when you consider all psuedoscientific audio products/sales to all the numerous individuals purchasing the products, the cumulative effect may not be so insignificant. Again, IMO, the progress of the field itself can be slowed by the presence of these types of products. An argument can be made that the inflow of funds into the audio world, from any products, is ultimately good for the field as it provides more funds with which to do real research. I have examined that possibility and find it lacking, just as I find it unlikely that the money crack-dealers put back into the economy offsets the summed marginal cost for all individuals negatively affected by the trade (I don't mean to equate esoteric-audio manufacturers with crack dealers... there are orders of magnitude separating them in degree, but the mechanisms are the same and extreme examples help to make the point more clear and obvious).
I obviously live just fine with this state of affairs (after all, what choice do we really have), and enjoy my audio none-the-less, but it would be irrational of me to pretend such forces do not act to slow progress. That was the point of my post.
Hi,
Cables can very easily be directional.
Microdiode nonsense, eh?
I suppose cable microphony is nonsense too, right?
Silver does sound different. Different silver, different sound...Same goes for copper, whatever.
Do you taste the difference between one brand of beer or the other?
You do?
So, why wouldn't materials sound different then?
BTW, it's not that you find silver at the jewelers' for 8 cent a foot that it's going to be the same silver you'll find at a cable store for 80 cent a foot either....Although it could be...
Jeweler' silver is not something I'd encourage people to use for audio anyway.
Just a little anecdote: when I replaced my expensive high-end interconnects (copper) with my own silver I/Cs it had a similar effect as replacing polyester coupling caps with polypropylenes:
Everything sounded faster, quicker and clearer.
As if you'd moved from a seat in row # 20 to row # 5, it's that much more resolving of fine detail.
Maybe it's not to everyone's liking but a difference there certainly is.
I'll never go back to copper wires, not ever.
Come to think of it, I can't recall anyone having tried silver cables telling me they didn't hear a difference....
Cheers, 😉
Cables can very easily be directional.
Microdiode nonsense, eh?
I suppose cable microphony is nonsense too, right?
Silver does sound different. Different silver, different sound...Same goes for copper, whatever.
Do you taste the difference between one brand of beer or the other?
You do?
So, why wouldn't materials sound different then?
BTW, it's not that you find silver at the jewelers' for 8 cent a foot that it's going to be the same silver you'll find at a cable store for 80 cent a foot either....Although it could be...
Jeweler' silver is not something I'd encourage people to use for audio anyway.
Just a little anecdote: when I replaced my expensive high-end interconnects (copper) with my own silver I/Cs it had a similar effect as replacing polyester coupling caps with polypropylenes:
Everything sounded faster, quicker and clearer.
As if you'd moved from a seat in row # 20 to row # 5, it's that much more resolving of fine detail.
Maybe it's not to everyone's liking but a difference there certainly is.
I'll never go back to copper wires, not ever.
Come to think of it, I can't recall anyone having tried silver cables telling me they didn't hear a difference....
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
Well...Reproduced music will forever remain just that.
Two channel reproduction of a well recorded event is all I ever wish for on MY stereo.
Unfortunately those recordings using a decent two mike setup are rather rare and most of those are at least 40 years old already.
They are however by far more realistic sounding than everything I ever heard recorded using multi-miking techniques.
Current two-channel reproduction could be far, far better than it actually is now.
Multi-channel is by no means an improvement unless perhaps for home cinema...If that's your kind of thing.
I for one certainly don't need that kind of sonic crap for my own entertainment, thank you very much.
Cheers,😉
Well...Reproduced music will forever remain just that.
Two channel reproduction of a well recorded event is all I ever wish for on MY stereo.
Unfortunately those recordings using a decent two mike setup are rather rare and most of those are at least 40 years old already.
They are however by far more realistic sounding than everything I ever heard recorded using multi-miking techniques.
Current two-channel reproduction could be far, far better than it actually is now.
Multi-channel is by no means an improvement unless perhaps for home cinema...If that's your kind of thing.
I for one certainly don't need that kind of sonic crap for my own entertainment, thank you very much.
Cheers,😉
May I come in?
Absolutely.
There are listeners and listeners.
Oh yes.
Yes, you start wondering...😀
Excellent post, I don't see things like this much often.
janneman said:
Absolutely.
There are listeners and listeners.
janneman said:
Oh yes.
janneman said:
Yes, you start wondering...😀
Excellent post, I don't see things like this much often.
RHosch said:
So?
Tough.
What, you expect people to buy that which they DON'T enjoy in order to keep YOU happy?
Tough.
WHAT!? Crack cocaine? Losing wives? Robberies?
Good God, we're talking abut AUDIO EQUIPMENT here!
Sorry, I'm not buying this Techno Taliban fascism you're selling.
se
fdegrove said:
They probably would if there were the gross differences between wires that there are between brands of beer.
C'mon, Frank. That's a really poor comparison.
Tell me, what differences are there beside conductivity that aren't buried in the thermal noise of the wire itself?
se
By that logic, since I can tell the difference between being hit by a toy train going at 3 km/h and being hit by a TGV train going 300 km/h, I should be able to tell the difference between the taste of one carrot and the taste of another one from the same batch.
Copper and silver cannot sound different for the simple reason that the only difference from an electrical standpoint is in the resistance of each, which are within 90% and infinitesimal compared to the impedance of the equipments which it connects.
Hi,
Not when you consider that I know more people than I'd care counting that can't tell the difference between a Carlsberg pils and a Tuborg.
If Congolese copper sounds the same to you as Australian mined copper then don't bother.
I can spot the difference with my eyes, I can feel the difference by touching it...Heck, it even doesn't smell the same....
So why would it have to sound the same?
Truth is, it doesn't.
BTW, aren't you the one planning on going to market with magnet wire insulated with old fashioned natural resin coating?
Have you been able to measure a difference other than DA that wasn't burried in the self-noise of the wire itself?
I can only hope you'll put it on the market because you feel one sounds more to you're liking than the other?
The other being current production magnet wire which uses polyurethane as an insulator, I think.
Either way, I often wonder why 80% of the contributors to these threads even bother with anything remotely related to audio anyway.....🙄
They could save the world a truckload of hassle by just sticking to their beloved transistor radios, eat at Mac Donalds' and waste their time by assisting DBTs for all I care.
No offense to anyone but hey, there's probably tons of other thing where you guys are much better at than I ever would be....
Truth is, I wouldn't even think of challenging you at that so why is it so hard to accept other people are better at other stuff?
If I'd be the only one perceiving (ah, you just can't say you hear something anymore) those differences, I'd go and see a doctor...
But I sure ain't the only one...Am I?
Cheers,😉
Not when you consider that I know more people than I'd care counting that can't tell the difference between a Carlsberg pils and a Tuborg.
If Congolese copper sounds the same to you as Australian mined copper then don't bother.
I can spot the difference with my eyes, I can feel the difference by touching it...Heck, it even doesn't smell the same....
So why would it have to sound the same?
Truth is, it doesn't.
BTW, aren't you the one planning on going to market with magnet wire insulated with old fashioned natural resin coating?
Have you been able to measure a difference other than DA that wasn't burried in the self-noise of the wire itself?
I can only hope you'll put it on the market because you feel one sounds more to you're liking than the other?
The other being current production magnet wire which uses polyurethane as an insulator, I think.
Either way, I often wonder why 80% of the contributors to these threads even bother with anything remotely related to audio anyway.....🙄
They could save the world a truckload of hassle by just sticking to their beloved transistor radios, eat at Mac Donalds' and waste their time by assisting DBTs for all I care.
No offense to anyone but hey, there's probably tons of other thing where you guys are much better at than I ever would be....
Truth is, I wouldn't even think of challenging you at that so why is it so hard to accept other people are better at other stuff?
If I'd be the only one perceiving (ah, you just can't say you hear something anymore) those differences, I'd go and see a doctor...
But I sure ain't the only one...Am I?
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Carrots come in batches nowadays?
You can't taste the difference between carrots coming from geologically different places?
That should tell you something about the state of your senses, shouldn't it?
Says who?
Shall I prove to you that the frequency response of silver wire isn't the same as the one from copper wire or gold or platinum for that matter????
Cheers,😉
Carrots come in batches nowadays?
You can't taste the difference between carrots coming from geologically different places?
That should tell you something about the state of your senses, shouldn't it?
Says who?
Shall I prove to you that the frequency response of silver wire isn't the same as the one from copper wire or gold or platinum for that matter????
Cheers,😉
Prune said:
Not that I think you care, but you just lost all respect I have ever had for you.
se
LOL! How can you have had any respect for someone you don't know?
Anyway, all I'm gonna say is, he started it.
fdegrove said:
They likely don't really care.
Point being, there are those who can and the differences between the two can be trivially measured.
I didn't say it would have to sound the same. I asked why they wouldn't sound the same, in the context of actual audible differences rather than subjective sound.
So what if it looks different, feels different and smells different? When used as intended, it's the electrical characteristics that matter.
Again, what differences are there, in the electrical domain, beside conductivity that wouldn't be buried below the thermal noise of the wire itself?
I'm sorry, but that "truth" hasn't been established.
Was. But after further experimenting, I've decided on a binary alloy wire with silk insulation.
Haven't tried measuring anything. Just going with what sounds best to me, regardless of any reasons why it sounds to me the way it does. And to that end I make no objective claims with regard to actual audibility.
Absolutely. But I won't put it on the market with any objective claims that I cannot substantiate objectively.
And I often wonder why some of the contributors here can't simply relate their subjective experiences without trying to pass them off as objective reality without any objective evidence and then getting their panties in a bunch when asked to substantiate them.
se
fdegrove said:
Sure, if you like trying to fool people with cheap parlour tricks.
Of course you'd get a different frequency response with those different metals simply because they have different conductivities.
se