Hey Vince,
now that you're totally hooked on silverwear, how's about some silver drumsticks ?
www.siltechcables.com/afawcs0115608/ln-webshop.html
When is the arrival of your next minimalistic amp design scheduled ?
now that you're totally hooked on silverwear, how's about some silver drumsticks ?
www.siltechcables.com/afawcs0115608/ln-webshop.html
When is the arrival of your next minimalistic amp design scheduled ?
I don't know jacco. I've never designed an amp. I just copy everyone else's stuff. I wanted to design a JFET power amp, but in 10 seconds someone else already did. Would take me a year.
Is that what you mean?
I have to finish the mini-XA and I'm not sure if I want to uild the BoSoZ or a CCS BoSoZ. I already have the boards for the BoSoZ.
Is that what you mean?
I have to finish the mini-XA and I'm not sure if I want to uild the BoSoZ or a CCS BoSoZ. I already have the boards for the BoSoZ.
protos said:
Hi Protos
My impression of silver was very similar to yours. Until i tried the DH Labs silver in foamed teflon - the bass is full and the horrible bleached sound of silver completely gone.
The more silver I add to my system the less bright it becomes. Must be something to do with the type of amp.
Member
Joined 2002
Bas Horneman said:
It might be do to with all the silver or the different types of silver coverd wire. ?
I use silver all over it's pretty nice stuff.
To those that use teflon tube. You could also try using a rubber type hose. I find that the teflon tubes make the cable really stiff. I have switched to a rubber hose with the silver wire in teflon tube / Or pre-coated with teflon. Almost all my audio cables i use / sell are silver. Some are burlam ( forgot the proper spelling ) copper. Pretty nice stuff too. I have purchased a'lot of different types of wire. Silver being my fav so far. Much more detailed.
The hardest part about making any type of cable it being a speaker cable or interconnect cable is the termination process. Finding the right rca/spade/xlr etc etc connector is hard because the wire reacts to the connector. Any one can make a cable slap it in a sleeve and put a connector on it. the trick is to find the right one. Less mass but also good quality.
I'm just learning new things every day but hey, that's what this is all about right ?
I've tried the Vampire cast copper and the Cardas copper; I had no luck with the Vampire in interconnects; the Cardas copper had an attractive, "meaty" solid sound through the midrange that I liked a great deal, but it also had a small amount of high end hash. (This is the Cardas "hookup" wire, not in a Cardas finished cable, which I have not heard.)
I wound up using the bare Cardas 5N silver in teflon tubing for the interconnects. Thread the wire into teflon tubing. Wind empty teflon tubing in a spiral, 2" or so pitch around the outside, securing it with loops of fine wire, ends twisted, soldered and cut and smoothed. Insert this subassembly into a larger piece of teflon tubing; the spiraled tubing will mostly keep the wire well away from the outer wall. Make two such assemblies, spiral them around each other, and insert in a larger piece of teflon tubing, attach connectors, and use heat shrink tubing. You wind up with a primarily air dielectric; best there is short of vacuum. I use Cardas solder (the older, have not tried the lead free yet) , and Cardas or Vampire RCA's. I would characterize the sound of these cables as quite close to the very best I've heard, and very slightly lean.
For speaker cables, the XO is at the amplifer, and I use Cardas for the cables. 2 X 9.5 ga for the woofer, twisted pair. 5 X 11.5 for the mid, 2 out, 3 back, arranged as a ribbon -+-+-. And 5X 21 Ga 5N Silver in 18 ga tubing, also arranged as a ribbon. Connections are spade lug terminations, and the less expensive Cardas low mass "binding post". The runs are 12 and 18 feet. This is the best I've tried yet, and I don't think I will try anything else. (Michael Percy is the source; and McMaster Carr has a good selection of teflon tubing also.)
Cables in general do interact with the system in sometimes surprising ways. Part of it of course is that it may be revealing faults in associated equipment or source material. Sometimes it seems to slightly mask or unmask system characteristics, crossing a threshold of audibility and causing a greater change than it "should".
I prefer rhodium plating on connectors, as it is hard, and seems to need less maintenance. Gold flash over brass or copper can migrate; Gold into the substrate, or the substrate through the gold? As others above have remarked, it is important to periodically go through your system and clean the contacts. I'd use a product that removes oxidation, something that alcohol may not do. Caig seems to be popular, and not the most expensive.
With a really good midrange driver, a silver lowpass coil is indeed worthwhile, and any coils in the tweeter path (series or shunt) even more so.
Cotton has its adherents; I read however, that the low dielectric constant figure for cotton was for raw, untreated cotton, still fluffy, and hence with a lot of air. Figures for finished cotton were substantially higher, depending on treatment and physical form. So I skipped cotton testing, and went for as much air as possible.
I wound up using the bare Cardas 5N silver in teflon tubing for the interconnects. Thread the wire into teflon tubing. Wind empty teflon tubing in a spiral, 2" or so pitch around the outside, securing it with loops of fine wire, ends twisted, soldered and cut and smoothed. Insert this subassembly into a larger piece of teflon tubing; the spiraled tubing will mostly keep the wire well away from the outer wall. Make two such assemblies, spiral them around each other, and insert in a larger piece of teflon tubing, attach connectors, and use heat shrink tubing. You wind up with a primarily air dielectric; best there is short of vacuum. I use Cardas solder (the older, have not tried the lead free yet) , and Cardas or Vampire RCA's. I would characterize the sound of these cables as quite close to the very best I've heard, and very slightly lean.
For speaker cables, the XO is at the amplifer, and I use Cardas for the cables. 2 X 9.5 ga for the woofer, twisted pair. 5 X 11.5 for the mid, 2 out, 3 back, arranged as a ribbon -+-+-. And 5X 21 Ga 5N Silver in 18 ga tubing, also arranged as a ribbon. Connections are spade lug terminations, and the less expensive Cardas low mass "binding post". The runs are 12 and 18 feet. This is the best I've tried yet, and I don't think I will try anything else. (Michael Percy is the source; and McMaster Carr has a good selection of teflon tubing also.)
Cables in general do interact with the system in sometimes surprising ways. Part of it of course is that it may be revealing faults in associated equipment or source material. Sometimes it seems to slightly mask or unmask system characteristics, crossing a threshold of audibility and causing a greater change than it "should".
I prefer rhodium plating on connectors, as it is hard, and seems to need less maintenance. Gold flash over brass or copper can migrate; Gold into the substrate, or the substrate through the gold? As others above have remarked, it is important to periodically go through your system and clean the contacts. I'd use a product that removes oxidation, something that alcohol may not do. Caig seems to be popular, and not the most expensive.
With a really good midrange driver, a silver lowpass coil is indeed worthwhile, and any coils in the tweeter path (series or shunt) even more so.
Cotton has its adherents; I read however, that the low dielectric constant figure for cotton was for raw, untreated cotton, still fluffy, and hence with a lot of air. Figures for finished cotton were substantially higher, depending on treatment and physical form. So I skipped cotton testing, and went for as much air as possible.
I will not join some cable debate. But I though I could throw in some general facts.
Teflon may in fact be the worst possible material as dielectric. It's super-tough and non-biodegradable, making it ideal for use in harsh environments. But those things don't necessarily make it suitable for audio. It's also one of the most toxic substances known to man. I guess it's for people who think asbestos isn't harmful enough.
Triboelectricity is a well-know problem in cables. At least outside of audiophile circles. Professional microphone cables are usually cotton-insulated.
OFC is industrial-grade copper. It's softer and doesn't crack as easily. It's used in pro audio cables. Non-OFC actually has lower resistance than OFC! (Look it up.) Hence it should be closer to silver in characteristics than OFC.
Teflon may in fact be the worst possible material as dielectric. It's super-tough and non-biodegradable, making it ideal for use in harsh environments. But those things don't necessarily make it suitable for audio. It's also one of the most toxic substances known to man. I guess it's for people who think asbestos isn't harmful enough.
Triboelectricity is a well-know problem in cables. At least outside of audiophile circles. Professional microphone cables are usually cotton-insulated.
OFC is industrial-grade copper. It's softer and doesn't crack as easily. It's used in pro audio cables. Non-OFC actually has lower resistance than OFC! (Look it up.) Hence it should be closer to silver in characteristics than OFC.
I just want you guys to know that I'm not trying to have a debate about what's better- copper or silver. I'm trying to understand the differences I'm hearing, because they are not the same.
Copper cable could very well be better at reproducing a signal.
Or, it might just be good enough.
So, I'm doing my own little experiment. I went out at lunch time and purchased a set of MIT ICs with some sort of equalizing network that suppose to balance the sound to be more"nuetral".
They run at about $150 for 1 meter.
I'm going to break these in for the two week recommened time period. The sales person remarked that they would sound good right out of the package and then "not" sound good and then sound really good at the end of the two weeks.
I'm not going to rebuild my silver cables. They will stay in teflon and remain twisted. I will also give them about 2 weeks break in time.
When I finish listening, I'll let you know what I decided based on what I hear. I'm going to play everything from classical to heavy-metal thru them. Last cable standing stays in my system. There will be no special treatment for my twisted silver cables.
I'll let you know.
V~
Copper cable could very well be better at reproducing a signal.
Or, it might just be good enough.
So, I'm doing my own little experiment. I went out at lunch time and purchased a set of MIT ICs with some sort of equalizing network that suppose to balance the sound to be more"nuetral".
They run at about $150 for 1 meter.
I'm going to break these in for the two week recommened time period. The sales person remarked that they would sound good right out of the package and then "not" sound good and then sound really good at the end of the two weeks.
I'm not going to rebuild my silver cables. They will stay in teflon and remain twisted. I will also give them about 2 weeks break in time.
When I finish listening, I'll let you know what I decided based on what I hear. I'm going to play everything from classical to heavy-metal thru them. Last cable standing stays in my system. There will be no special treatment for my twisted silver cables.
I'll let you know.
V~
Ahh. That statement sounds a little salty to me. Did this salesman have a first hand knowledge of your system? and were they qualified to say this?vdi_nenna said:
I feel this because in the past I have found myself likeing the thought of a new component straight up, then beginning to question it in the first two weeks, and then becoming used to it. Spooky.
vdi_nenna, I can see no wrong with the silver interconnects.
But if you want to experiment, get some cat 5 network patch cable. Try different types of designs, from very tightly braided interconnects to using two untwisted parallel leads. This will give you everything from low to high capacitance and high to low impedance interconnects. Either you will be surprised by the difference in sound or you will be surprised by the lack of difference.
But if you want to experiment, get some cat 5 network patch cable. Try different types of designs, from very tightly braided interconnects to using two untwisted parallel leads. This will give you everything from low to high capacitance and high to low impedance interconnects. Either you will be surprised by the difference in sound or you will be surprised by the lack of difference.
Member
Joined 2002
phn said:
Cat-5 Is not that good for audio. People claim it is because it is dirt cheap. In the long run i have yet to see any Professional audio setup of any kind that uses cat-5.. Do we see nelson pass using cat-5 to wire his speakers probably not.
Oh how I so wish that were true jleaman. Quite a few professional studio wiring systems based on CAT6 and RJ45 are available. Line level balanced of course, but hundreds of feet between ends isn't unusual.
Member
Joined 2002
rdf said:
Won't catch me using it in my audio system. My speakers were built with it. I'm replacing it with silver stuff.
But Linkwitz does use radio shack "lamp cord" speaker cable and recommends it for the Orions.jleaman said:
Remember, just because something is inexpensive doesn't mean it doesn't work.
OH NO!
Dfdye,
Surely you can't be talking about using speaker cable for speakers.
Jeeze!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dfdye,
Surely you can't be talking about using speaker cable for speakers.
Jeeze!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey rdf,
Is it your "take on things" that some "pros" have thrown basic electrostatic shielding to the dogs?
Not a contrary rebuttal by any means; just very curious.
Didn't we get through all this stuff... like maybe 70 years ago?
Is it your "take on things" that some "pros" have thrown basic electrostatic shielding to the dogs?
Not a contrary rebuttal by any means; just very curious.
Didn't we get through all this stuff... like maybe 70 years ago?
haven't we already been through this before??? 😀😀poobah said:Surely you can't be talking about using speaker cable for speakers.
If I said I sacrificed a chicken to the electrical gods and only walked into the room through one door and out the other in order to bias the carpet correctly, or if I built my stereo cabinet out of salt water cured teak to cut down on the ionization potential of the electrolytic caps (I'll stop now, but I can keep going. . . ) would that make it OK for me to use cheap speaker cable?
Anyway, like I have said before, my system is still too low budget for me to consider paying more for wires than I paid for drivers!!! I know those are by far the weakest link in my system (and make the biggest difference if I change them) so that's what I am concentrating on if I spend any serious money on a component. If anybody enjoys their music more coming through disproportionately priced interconnects or cables, far be it from me to stop you! (though you could donate to the "Help David Build a New Amp" fund instead! 😀)
Hey popah, if it worked for Marconi why change? In 20+ years of radio I've seen one, maybe two stations wired with individually shielded pair cable. The rest used 25 pair unshielded CAT3. In the Golden Age we soldered to 'xmas tree' terminations, now it's mostly BIX. Cross connects are unshielded twisted pair. Think pure Telco tech, any phone closet. The driving force is dollar$, inexpensive, common parts with low installation cost. Systems rely on low drive impedances and high common mode rejection ratios to work 'good 'nuff'.
The real irony is that the cost of TCP/IP digitil distribution is just starting to beat telco. That's partially why CAT6 is being used, once again cheap and common, widely trained installation labour pool and a built-in upgrade path to digital conversion. Most new stations are going all digital and for the first time in the history of broadcast it's now possible to deliver, relatively inexpensively, to the transmiter site substantially the same fidelity as the original master. The irony? A new <100 kbs, mega-compressed digital broadcast format is currently rolling out to replace FM. We can get the master to the transmitter but the audience will hear the equivalent of a sub-par Internet stream. Only in radio...
Incidentally, many recording studios have apparently gone the opposite direction, loading up with Sim Audio amps, Zaolla Silver cable, tube gear, etc..
The real irony is that the cost of TCP/IP digitil distribution is just starting to beat telco. That's partially why CAT6 is being used, once again cheap and common, widely trained installation labour pool and a built-in upgrade path to digital conversion. Most new stations are going all digital and for the first time in the history of broadcast it's now possible to deliver, relatively inexpensively, to the transmiter site substantially the same fidelity as the original master. The irony? A new <100 kbs, mega-compressed digital broadcast format is currently rolling out to replace FM. We can get the master to the transmitter but the audience will hear the equivalent of a sub-par Internet stream. Only in radio...
Incidentally, many recording studios have apparently gone the opposite direction, loading up with Sim Audio amps, Zaolla Silver cable, tube gear, etc..
It is a "questionable" statement made by the sales guy. Maybe it's what MIT told him to say. I don't know. I'll see in 2 weeks.
BTW- I added a Monster Power 3500 mkII power conditioner at the same time as the MIT AVt (4x) series.
So far the MITs are nice. Not as forward as the silver ICs. The the system w/ the silver ICs sounded more dynamic, with better response time.
They are both breaking in with music and pink noise at the same time.
V~
And now for My favorite cable...
Well, it was no contest. My cables are better. It didn't take too much listening to determine this. There is no question that the silver cables have better dynamics, resolution and are simply more fun to listen to (or thru).
The high are less fatiguing with the silver ICs. Mids don't sound "canned" with the silver ICs. The MITs sounded like "FM" compression. I wasn't getting all I could get. The bass notes had no body. Bass sounded restricted wih the MITs. Bass notes on the silver ICs were seperated and were more whole and less distorted.
I used a couple CDs for auditioning. On Jack Johnson's On & On CD I listened to track 13- Rodeo Clowns. In the opening there are bongo drums out of the left speaker. With the Silver ICs you can hear the hits and then the shuffling of the percussionists hands on the skins before the next hit. I didn't get that with the MITs.
On Jack's other CD, Bushfire Fairytails, I listened to track 5- Flake.
During the chorus it's clear that his voice is doubled. It's not as clear with the MITs.
Cymbals have more weight and they seem to ring longer with the silver ICs.
There is a better rise and fall of sound. I could hear a difference between strums on acoutic guitar. Jack's voice was not nasily with the silver IC either.
Song that I don't particularly like on either CD were more fun to listen to because they sounded more like music with the silver ICs.
I put the MITs between my CD player and preamp and the DIY ICs from the preamp to the amp. The over all sound is more revealing, but I still get the restricted quality. The sound doesn't spill out into the room. It seems 2 dimensional. Sound thru the Ag ICs is more 3D.
If I close my eye before a song starts, the speakers are not in the position of the instrument when I open them. The instuments fall on, behind, in front and next to the speakers.
I listened to Dave Mathews Band- Crash. All the same things applied except the DMB cd is very well produced and there are many more instruments.
Finally, I listened to a cd that was recorded at a recording studio where I interned for 3 years off and on. I wasn't there during the session, but I used to make dubbs off the master DAT tape thru a Trident mixing board that went thru a Bryson 120w amp to a set of KRK monitors that look to have used Focal driver. However, I did see the band perform the whole CD in the studio for a record release party.
Neither cable made a difference in convincing me that they were very accurate. 🙁 Still more information came thru on the AG DIY ICs. This is an overall system problem. Probably not enough power. My speakers are small compared to the studio monitors.
I don't think I like this correction network on the MITs. I don't like the idea of correcting frequncies to compensate for inaccuracy.
I'm getting my $$ back on the MITs and buying some Eichmann silver bullets and building a new set based on the geometry that was advised earlier.
Vince
Well, it was no contest. My cables are better. It didn't take too much listening to determine this. There is no question that the silver cables have better dynamics, resolution and are simply more fun to listen to (or thru).
The high are less fatiguing with the silver ICs. Mids don't sound "canned" with the silver ICs. The MITs sounded like "FM" compression. I wasn't getting all I could get. The bass notes had no body. Bass sounded restricted wih the MITs. Bass notes on the silver ICs were seperated and were more whole and less distorted.
I used a couple CDs for auditioning. On Jack Johnson's On & On CD I listened to track 13- Rodeo Clowns. In the opening there are bongo drums out of the left speaker. With the Silver ICs you can hear the hits and then the shuffling of the percussionists hands on the skins before the next hit. I didn't get that with the MITs.
On Jack's other CD, Bushfire Fairytails, I listened to track 5- Flake.
During the chorus it's clear that his voice is doubled. It's not as clear with the MITs.
Cymbals have more weight and they seem to ring longer with the silver ICs.
There is a better rise and fall of sound. I could hear a difference between strums on acoutic guitar. Jack's voice was not nasily with the silver IC either.
Song that I don't particularly like on either CD were more fun to listen to because they sounded more like music with the silver ICs.
I put the MITs between my CD player and preamp and the DIY ICs from the preamp to the amp. The over all sound is more revealing, but I still get the restricted quality. The sound doesn't spill out into the room. It seems 2 dimensional. Sound thru the Ag ICs is more 3D.
If I close my eye before a song starts, the speakers are not in the position of the instrument when I open them. The instuments fall on, behind, in front and next to the speakers.
I listened to Dave Mathews Band- Crash. All the same things applied except the DMB cd is very well produced and there are many more instruments.
Finally, I listened to a cd that was recorded at a recording studio where I interned for 3 years off and on. I wasn't there during the session, but I used to make dubbs off the master DAT tape thru a Trident mixing board that went thru a Bryson 120w amp to a set of KRK monitors that look to have used Focal driver. However, I did see the band perform the whole CD in the studio for a record release party.
Neither cable made a difference in convincing me that they were very accurate. 🙁 Still more information came thru on the AG DIY ICs. This is an overall system problem. Probably not enough power. My speakers are small compared to the studio monitors.
I don't think I like this correction network on the MITs. I don't like the idea of correcting frequncies to compensate for inaccuracy.
I'm getting my $$ back on the MITs and buying some Eichmann silver bullets and building a new set based on the geometry that was advised earlier.
Vince
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