SHIELDING.
Hi,
Bob,
And I suppose that's all they tell us about this shielding technique?
Never have I heard a silver plated copper wire that actually sounded well balanced.
I can only assume that most of these Ag plated wires were not really intended for audio use in the first place but rather targeted for HF application.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Bob,
And I suppose that's all they tell us about this shielding technique?
Never have I heard a silver plated copper wire that actually sounded well balanced.
I can only assume that most of these Ag plated wires were not really intended for audio use in the first place but rather targeted for HF application.
Cheers,😉
Hi Frank,
Yes they do, but I truncated things to appease the self-appointed Thread Monitor and literary style teacher.
In fact they also say "The shielding is essentially three levels of high quality material which consists of a silver plated flat ribbon braid (which gives a better level of contact as opposed to the rounded braid) which is covered by a spirally applied composite aluminium tape interliner and finally a silver plated round wire braid which all results in a quoted shielding efficiency in excess of 95dB."
Oh my God, how many words is that?
Dare I add to it?
Yes!!! They also say "your'e in comparison here with the upper reaches of of the van den Hul and Nordost ranges here which (especially with the latter) runs into extremely serious money."
I wonder how they managed to tame the top end of the silver plated wire, as it seems they must have as there are no adverse comments about this anywhere. The cost is £500/meter, by the way.
Regards,
Yes they do, but I truncated things to appease the self-appointed Thread Monitor and literary style teacher.
In fact they also say "The shielding is essentially three levels of high quality material which consists of a silver plated flat ribbon braid (which gives a better level of contact as opposed to the rounded braid) which is covered by a spirally applied composite aluminium tape interliner and finally a silver plated round wire braid which all results in a quoted shielding efficiency in excess of 95dB."
Oh my God, how many words is that?
Dare I add to it?
Yes!!! They also say "your'e in comparison here with the upper reaches of of the van den Hul and Nordost ranges here which (especially with the latter) runs into extremely serious money."
I wonder how they managed to tame the top end of the silver plated wire, as it seems they must have as there are no adverse comments about this anywhere. The cost is £500/meter, by the way.
Regards,
Hi Bob,
Yes I'm still following the thread with great interest.
The possible permutations of cable material/insulator/geometry are starting to give me a headache...
😱
I assume that the protective oil (Cramolin) will work as a dielectric when appiled to the bare metal, which leads me to the following question: Do you have any thoughts or data reguarding how it stores energy?
What sort of geometries work well? If I use bare wire then the easiest and maybe best would be straight runs of wire, but if I were to use insulation a lot of other possibilities come to mind...
It is also noteworthy that just about everyone has an opinion on which materials are usable, i.e tinned copper, silver plated copper, enameld copper, bare copper, teflon insulated .... and so on. The cables obviously acts as a filter and depending on what the rest of the components in the system are a certain cable will appear more appealing than another... Guess I will have to try them all!
😉
/Niclas
Yes I'm still following the thread with great interest.
The possible permutations of cable material/insulator/geometry are starting to give me a headache...
😱
I assume that the protective oil (Cramolin) will work as a dielectric when appiled to the bare metal, which leads me to the following question: Do you have any thoughts or data reguarding how it stores energy?
What sort of geometries work well? If I use bare wire then the easiest and maybe best would be straight runs of wire, but if I were to use insulation a lot of other possibilities come to mind...
It is also noteworthy that just about everyone has an opinion on which materials are usable, i.e tinned copper, silver plated copper, enameld copper, bare copper, teflon insulated .... and so on. The cables obviously acts as a filter and depending on what the rest of the components in the system are a certain cable will appear more appealing than another... Guess I will have to try them all!
😉
/Niclas
stappvargen said:Hi Bob,
Yes I'm still following the thread with great interest.
The possible permutations of cable material/insulator/geometry are starting to give me a headache...
😱
*****I assume that the protective oil (Cramolin) will work as a dielectric when appiled to the bare metal, which leads me to the following question: Do you have any thoughts or data reguarding how it stores energy?****
To some (I guess very small) extent, it must do, but the idea is to wipe off the material you apply, so that what is left is miniscule. Ideally, 'molecular level' as the makers suggest, is best it would seem. Interestingly, I have never actually compared an *identical* pair of wires where one has been treated and the other has not, as far as their 'sonics' are concerned.
Before I tried Cramolin in this way, I had been using it for some years for its intended purposes (contacts, pots, connectors etc.) and as I found it *universally* so good, I had no doubts as to the fact that it could do no harm to the sound, even if it didn't do much to improve it. Remember, here, that the recommendation for this was for 'preservation' or anti-oxidation rather than specifically for sonic enhancement.
I have all of the Caig tech info. but I can see no mention therein about dielectric 'effects' but this is not surprising as this kind of application was not envisaged by Caig.
***What sort of geometries work well? If I use bare wire then the easiest and maybe best would be straight runs of wire, but if I were to use insulation a lot of other possibilities come to mind...***
Many different geometries appear to be OK, and I believe that within sensible reason, the geometry will have much less affect on the sound than the type of wire chosen.
As a rule of thumb, if you run two wires closely together with the same orientation (i.e. two wires running side by side) this will provide the highest inherent capacitance, and the further you separate these runs, the lower the capacitance will become.
All wire exhibits some inherent inductance, albeit relatively small, but this can be greatly increased by spiralling or coiling it along its run.
Only experimentation will show you which 'blend' is best in any application, as I find in some cases more capacitance is desirable, in others more inductance, and a combination of both can be better for the rest!
I am fortunate living out in the country (no commercial activity for miles) and not apparently being in an area of high RF interference, but this also needs to be considered. Straight, parallel runs of wire are generally much more susceptible to picking up such 'hash', so the spiralled configurations would seem to be better for this avoidance.
Two of my own DIY jobs which I like a lot are:
(1) A braided 3 wire config with a send, return, and drain wire for shielding. I happen to use my own Cramolined and PTFE sheathed 0.6 mm silver wire for this (but doubtless 'factory' applied PTFE would be much the same), and the braiding is done like 'plaiting' i.e. a Norwegian girl's hair
Varying the number of 'plaits' per unit length will vary the inductance, as the wires do not run parallel the capacitance is quite low, and this shape in itself also helps to reject unwanted RF interference.
Interestingly, for shielding it is not *essential* to have a 'complete' shield (i.e. with all of the conductors entirely surrounded by an unbroken shield, which is less easy for a DIYer) as can be seen with commercial RF cables.
In general, I don't like the sound of fully sheathed wires as they always seem 'dull' to listen to compared with identical wires unsheathed. It must be the additional capacitance which is unavoidable with this kind of construction.
Try it, sometime by adding or removing shielding, and you will see what I mean, but if you don't need the better 'interference' protection, always avoid shielding for best results.
With this cable, the additional capacitance is much less than with 'fully shielded' (I have measured it), and it doesn't have such a deleterious affect.
The 'drain' wire should only be connected to the 'cold' or return wire *at one end* and this will usually be best if this is made the end where the equipment shows the lowest impedance to ground. (i.e. the better ground). However, this cable is 'directional' 😱 , so it can be tried both ways to slightly alter its characteristics.
(2) This cable is made out of the same sheathed wires but only has a send and a return which are spiral-wound around the outside of another PTFE 'core' made of (anything between say 4mm and 8mm semi-rigid) PTFE sheathing.
It is counter-wound (i.e. one spiral clockwise and one anti-clockwise) so that at each turn, the wires cross over each other which keeps capacitance low. You can readily alter the inductance by increasing/decreasing the number of turns per unit length, as I have checked with measuring equipment.
This cable is not directional, and sounds marginally better than than #(1) probably because of the total lack of a shield.
Incidentally, all cables need a 'settling-in' period, so they will sound *different* for a while if they have just been installed or have been reversed. Therefore, don't make any hasty definitive judgements until they have been in use for perhaps a day or so to be sure.
Also, try to avoid too much bending of any wires as this will tend to 'work-harden' them and is also not good for the sound.
***It is also noteworthy that just about everyone has an opinion on which materials are usable, i.e tinned copper, silver plated copper, enameld copper, bare copper, teflon insulated .... and so on. The cables obviously acts as a filter and depending on what the rest of the components in the system are a certain cable will appear more appealing than another... Guess I will have to try them all!***
Yes! 🙂
Never take any notice of those who say that there are no differences, as either their ears or systems or whatever are simply not up to it, unfortunately! These differences are quite audible, and can really sweeten up a system or make it considerably poorer sounding.
Regards,
Star Quad
Hi Bob,
The best interconnects I made were made from 4 strands of 0.6mm, six-nines copper with silver plating, per channel.
The four strands were placed in star-quad configuration, and the two wires for each leg were in opposing directions.
Originally the strands were insulated by thin teflon sleeves, but I found this to ruin the sound - shitty teflon sound.
By making these cables totally non-directional, I got just fantastic depth imaging, and lcr imaging, and sounds coming from behind the listening position.
Next trial one day would likely be plain copper, or solid silver strands.
Eric.
Hi Bob,
The best interconnects I made were made from 4 strands of 0.6mm, six-nines copper with silver plating, per channel.
The four strands were placed in star-quad configuration, and the two wires for each leg were in opposing directions.
Originally the strands were insulated by thin teflon sleeves, but I found this to ruin the sound - shitty teflon sound.
By making these cables totally non-directional, I got just fantastic depth imaging, and lcr imaging, and sounds coming from behind the listening position.
Next trial one day would likely be plain copper, or solid silver strands.
Eric.
Hi Eric,
Good to hear from you on this one.
I also quite like the star quad arrangement and I have three different proprietary star quad cables (all with silver wires) which I use from time to time. One is Siltech and two are Audio Synthesis (which I believe emanate from Frank's pals Descadel.)
They are all screened, unfortunately, and, as I said, I believe they would sound better if the screening was removed (in my RFI free location) but this is impractical with these ready-made cables.
My experiences of silver-plated stuff have not been too exciting as they all appeared to be bit on the bright side for my otherwise very revealing SS setup, but clearly from the recent Chord cable review, it must be possible to tame this, somehow. Looks like you have achieved this, too.
It occurs to me that possibly Chord offset, or balance out, the usual sil-plated 'forwardness', with the 'dullness' I have noticed which tends to occur with fully screening cables, as this one is 'triple-screened'. 😎
If you don't use Teflon yourself here, what have you found that is better?
Do you use ready insulated wires, or what?
Certainly (other than plain fresh air) Teflon is the least objectionable practical sheathing I have so far tried, and I find it reasonably inoffensive, but, rather surprisingly, I once tried some silicone rubber sleeving that I had to hand, and that was about as good as Teflon. All the other softer plastic PVC type stuff is frightful.
Sil rubber doesn't seem very easy to find nowadays, and I still have a large quantity of Teflon kicking around, so I tend to stick with that. It (or very close cousins) also seems to be fairly universally used by high-end cable makers too.
A few years back when I first got hold of some unsheathed silver wire of 0.6 mm dia., my stock of suitable sleeving was lowish so I ordered 10 meters from a supplier. When it arrived, it was 100 meters (although I was only charged for 10m!) so I kept it, and that makes a lot of cables!
Before you 'shop' me, in my 'defense' I had only just returned 9 pairs of CK pliers (cost about £20 each!), as this same daft company had sent me 10 of those instead of just one, and this second time, I just thought sod it!
Incidentally, about 15 yrs ago, another supplier sent me a wonderful digital 'scope worth over £2000 (then!), instead of the £500 job I had paid for. I had to come clean, even tho' it broke my heart in doing so.
I guess they must have sacked the respective storemen soon after, because it never happened again with either company!😎
Regards,
Good to hear from you on this one.
I also quite like the star quad arrangement and I have three different proprietary star quad cables (all with silver wires) which I use from time to time. One is Siltech and two are Audio Synthesis (which I believe emanate from Frank's pals Descadel.)
They are all screened, unfortunately, and, as I said, I believe they would sound better if the screening was removed (in my RFI free location) but this is impractical with these ready-made cables.
My experiences of silver-plated stuff have not been too exciting as they all appeared to be bit on the bright side for my otherwise very revealing SS setup, but clearly from the recent Chord cable review, it must be possible to tame this, somehow. Looks like you have achieved this, too.
It occurs to me that possibly Chord offset, or balance out, the usual sil-plated 'forwardness', with the 'dullness' I have noticed which tends to occur with fully screening cables, as this one is 'triple-screened'. 😎
If you don't use Teflon yourself here, what have you found that is better?
Do you use ready insulated wires, or what?
Certainly (other than plain fresh air) Teflon is the least objectionable practical sheathing I have so far tried, and I find it reasonably inoffensive, but, rather surprisingly, I once tried some silicone rubber sleeving that I had to hand, and that was about as good as Teflon. All the other softer plastic PVC type stuff is frightful.
Sil rubber doesn't seem very easy to find nowadays, and I still have a large quantity of Teflon kicking around, so I tend to stick with that. It (or very close cousins) also seems to be fairly universally used by high-end cable makers too.
A few years back when I first got hold of some unsheathed silver wire of 0.6 mm dia., my stock of suitable sleeving was lowish so I ordered 10 meters from a supplier. When it arrived, it was 100 meters (although I was only charged for 10m!) so I kept it, and that makes a lot of cables!
Before you 'shop' me, in my 'defense' I had only just returned 9 pairs of CK pliers (cost about £20 each!), as this same daft company had sent me 10 of those instead of just one, and this second time, I just thought sod it!
Incidentally, about 15 yrs ago, another supplier sent me a wonderful digital 'scope worth over £2000 (then!), instead of the £500 job I had paid for. I had to come clean, even tho' it broke my heart in doing so.
I guess they must have sacked the respective storemen soon after, because it never happened again with either company!😎
Regards,
Hi Bob,
The arrangement was as follows -
CDP on top of rack mount cabinet and amplifier was mounted about 25cm below, and plugs fitted into the back of both, and the interconnect wires soldered at right angles onto all plugs.
The four wires per channel were uninsulated and positioned in a star quad arrangement.
The source of the wire was some Apogee cable that I did not like the sound of so I canibalised it.
The original construction was 8 thin teflon (4 pink, 4 grey) sleeved wires aranged alternately around a plastic filler rod, and wrapped with aluminium shielding foil, and a thick pliable sheath around the whole lot.
First experiment was 4 teflon sleeved wires with the filler/spacer rod down the middle.
Second experiment was to remove the sleeves, and then tape around the whole lot to keep the wires positioned.
Teflon plumbers tape and cellotape were tried, and both sounded different.
Nirvana was the 4 wires bared of any insulation, no filler rod, and the 4 wires positioned carefully in space in quad configuration.
Although totally impractical, this gave the best sonics I have heard from any interconnect.
In this experimenting, and others I find that I do not like teflon - hard sounding and not at all relaxing vibe in the sound to my ear.
Nowadays I just use any cheap premade interconnect, but I do buy 2 pairs, seperate the pairs, and use the same colour for both channels.
This is good enough for me at present until I get back to interconnect experimenting again in earnest - too many other things like running a business, GF, other to my ear more signifcant experiments etc.
And besides, with current experiments I can get the sound that I want out of any old interconnect or mic or instrument cable - some groundbreaking stuff is coming, believe me.
Also I'm glad that you have a concience - me too.
Automatically if I have been given too much change at a shop I just give it straight back - that way I can sleep well.
Regards, Eric.
The arrangement was as follows -
CDP on top of rack mount cabinet and amplifier was mounted about 25cm below, and plugs fitted into the back of both, and the interconnect wires soldered at right angles onto all plugs.
The four wires per channel were uninsulated and positioned in a star quad arrangement.
The source of the wire was some Apogee cable that I did not like the sound of so I canibalised it.
The original construction was 8 thin teflon (4 pink, 4 grey) sleeved wires aranged alternately around a plastic filler rod, and wrapped with aluminium shielding foil, and a thick pliable sheath around the whole lot.
First experiment was 4 teflon sleeved wires with the filler/spacer rod down the middle.
Second experiment was to remove the sleeves, and then tape around the whole lot to keep the wires positioned.
Teflon plumbers tape and cellotape were tried, and both sounded different.
Nirvana was the 4 wires bared of any insulation, no filler rod, and the 4 wires positioned carefully in space in quad configuration.
Although totally impractical, this gave the best sonics I have heard from any interconnect.
In this experimenting, and others I find that I do not like teflon - hard sounding and not at all relaxing vibe in the sound to my ear.
Nowadays I just use any cheap premade interconnect, but I do buy 2 pairs, seperate the pairs, and use the same colour for both channels.
This is good enough for me at present until I get back to interconnect experimenting again in earnest - too many other things like running a business, GF, other to my ear more signifcant experiments etc.
And besides, with current experiments I can get the sound that I want out of any old interconnect or mic or instrument cable - some groundbreaking stuff is coming, believe me.
Also I'm glad that you have a concience - me too.
Automatically if I have been given too much change at a shop I just give it straight back - that way I can sleep well.
Regards, Eric.
Hi Eric,
Oh, yes, now I understand, and of course this arrangement using 'air' as the dielectric matches entirely what I have found and mentioned previously.
If you saw the post when I explained to Frank about my 'best yet usable' cable, you will see that this is the closest I have got to an 'air' dielectric, but with retaining some 'flexibility' in use etc.
It is very impractical to construct (unless you happen to be a jeweller/silversmith!) for the reasons I outlined, though.
I have done the same kind of 'fixed' setup as you (but only with send and return, not quad), and that was a little better than my 'best yet' cable, but as I frequently seem to be trying out something new with my system, I found it rather impractical.
When are you going to tell us about the "breakthrough" then?😎
If it overcomes wire differences (as you seem to be suggesting) it has to be good, and I wonder if impedance matching enters the picture here?
Regards, 🙂
Oh, yes, now I understand, and of course this arrangement using 'air' as the dielectric matches entirely what I have found and mentioned previously.
If you saw the post when I explained to Frank about my 'best yet usable' cable, you will see that this is the closest I have got to an 'air' dielectric, but with retaining some 'flexibility' in use etc.
It is very impractical to construct (unless you happen to be a jeweller/silversmith!) for the reasons I outlined, though.
I have done the same kind of 'fixed' setup as you (but only with send and return, not quad), and that was a little better than my 'best yet' cable, but as I frequently seem to be trying out something new with my system, I found it rather impractical.
When are you going to tell us about the "breakthrough" then?😎
If it overcomes wire differences (as you seem to be suggesting) it has to be good, and I wonder if impedance matching enters the picture here?
Regards, 🙂
Hi Bob, thanks for your reply.
The point of the totally impractical but quite fantastic sounding air spaced star-quad arrangement that I cooked up, is that it enables cancelling of directional characteristic for each leg (active and neutral), and it is THIS that enables decent depth imaging that presents as close mic'd sound sources as being within in a curtain between the speakers, imaging from far behind the speakers, and imaging behind the listening position - no dolby pro-logic required, thankyou.
This star-quad arrangement was significantly better sounding than my experiments of using the same wire but using single strands for A & N - effectively making the interconnect non-directional pays very big dividends in my experience.
I regularly change internal connection wires with my non-directional replacement.
To this end I just use a bit of standard single strand, pvc insulated all copper telephone wire, except that I take a suitable length, fold it in half, stick one end in my battery drill and spin the pair together.
I use this as a two strand single wire, and find that this supposedly non-directional connecting wire can make a nice difference in many applications, mostly first input and final output connections.
For now, the 'breakthrough' thing is being kept under wraps - sorry, but this thing is likely going to be seriously big - it has taken me the last 10 years to perfect it, so I ain't laying it straight out on the table just yet, and there are some earnest final product developments and approvals going on just now.
Suffice to say, that during recent trials of this signal processing box, the responses have been "Love it !", "Fabulous !", "Impressed !", "I want one - how much, WHEN ?", through to "No sh*t", *ucking great"..... etc - yeah seriously.
To date, trials include millions of domestic replay systems on the bench, several trials on a particular live 3 piece system, experiments today with guitar and guitar amp mods, and tonight on a well regarded studio condenser mic- same deal - no complaints and only praise.
This thing is going to turn the audio world on it head - yeah.
Happy listening to all,
Eric / The sonically enlightened.
The point of the totally impractical but quite fantastic sounding air spaced star-quad arrangement that I cooked up, is that it enables cancelling of directional characteristic for each leg (active and neutral), and it is THIS that enables decent depth imaging that presents as close mic'd sound sources as being within in a curtain between the speakers, imaging from far behind the speakers, and imaging behind the listening position - no dolby pro-logic required, thankyou.
This star-quad arrangement was significantly better sounding than my experiments of using the same wire but using single strands for A & N - effectively making the interconnect non-directional pays very big dividends in my experience.
I regularly change internal connection wires with my non-directional replacement.
To this end I just use a bit of standard single strand, pvc insulated all copper telephone wire, except that I take a suitable length, fold it in half, stick one end in my battery drill and spin the pair together.
I use this as a two strand single wire, and find that this supposedly non-directional connecting wire can make a nice difference in many applications, mostly first input and final output connections.
For now, the 'breakthrough' thing is being kept under wraps - sorry, but this thing is likely going to be seriously big - it has taken me the last 10 years to perfect it, so I ain't laying it straight out on the table just yet, and there are some earnest final product developments and approvals going on just now.
Suffice to say, that during recent trials of this signal processing box, the responses have been "Love it !", "Fabulous !", "Impressed !", "I want one - how much, WHEN ?", through to "No sh*t", *ucking great"..... etc - yeah seriously.
To date, trials include millions of domestic replay systems on the bench, several trials on a particular live 3 piece system, experiments today with guitar and guitar amp mods, and tonight on a well regarded studio condenser mic- same deal - no complaints and only praise.
This thing is going to turn the audio world on it head - yeah.
Happy listening to all,
Eric / The sonically enlightened.
Hi Eric,
Sounds very exciting
By the way, don't forget that my charges for evaluating 'free samples' and providing appropriate feedback are very reasonable!!! 😎
I'm willing to take on the UK agency rights too!
Regards,
Sounds very exciting
By the way, don't forget that my charges for evaluating 'free samples' and providing appropriate feedback are very reasonable!!! 😎
I'm willing to take on the UK agency rights too!
Regards,
Privileged Onlookers....
Hi Bob, LOL.
Yes, those who have heard this 'thang' are pretty excited too.
So far, the willing 'guinea pigs' in this process have heard, listened and are unwilling to give it back !. 🙄
Free lunch - get your mother to buy you a free lunch !. 😉
Once you've heard this 'thang' you won't be able to get the hard earned out of your pocket quick enough.
E-mail and tell me more of where you are at and what you do, and I'll have a better understanding regarding OS representatives.
Eric.
Bobken said:Hi Eric,
Sounds very exciting
By the way, don't forget that my charges for evaluating 'free samples' and providing appropriate feedback are very reasonable!!! 😎
I'm willing to take on the UK agency rights too!
Regards,
Hi Bob, LOL.
Yes, those who have heard this 'thang' are pretty excited too.
So far, the willing 'guinea pigs' in this process have heard, listened and are unwilling to give it back !. 🙄
Free lunch - get your mother to buy you a free lunch !. 😉
Once you've heard this 'thang' you won't be able to get the hard earned out of your pocket quick enough.
E-mail and tell me more of where you are at and what you do, and I'll have a better understanding regarding OS representatives.
Eric.
Hi all,
Has anyone tried EcoClean Silver and Gold Cleaner by Rawn. According to the label it is "VpCI enhanced silver and gold polish for electrical contacts, jewelry and silverware".
Further label info.
1. Removes tarnish and prevents future corrosion.
2. VpCI enhancement eliminates need for constant re-cleaning and polishing
Thanks,
henrylrjr
Has anyone tried EcoClean Silver and Gold Cleaner by Rawn. According to the label it is "VpCI enhanced silver and gold polish for electrical contacts, jewelry and silverware".
Further label info.
1. Removes tarnish and prevents future corrosion.
2. VpCI enhancement eliminates need for constant re-cleaning and polishing
Thanks,
henrylrjr
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