Hi Frank,
I didn't understand your post #18, so what gives, as they say?🙁
Sy,
Having had a refreshing nights sleep, and thinking further on the subject, I thought it may be helpful to expand on some of my earlier comments.
Please bear in mind Niclas' original request which, after saying he had considered the various choices available by way of wires, he wished to know "Would using bare copper....work well?" and "Will oxidised copper conduct poorer than shiny new copper", and ultimately "If the answer is no, then I can obviously skip the Teflon", which indicated (to me at least!) that he had considered 'sheathing' in some manner the bare copper he had in mind to use.
Of course, had he asked a different question like perhaps "which wire do you think sounds the best", I would have followed the lead of several others, and said that 'purpose made' teflon wire would be a better choice, anyway. I would probably have added "what kind of copper do you have in mind, bog-standard, OF, Tough pitch, OHNO continuous-casting, long crystal," etc., as they all have different sonic attributes, and then gone on to say "keep the gauge of copper down to very much smaller than you would expect", as this will also improve sonics as a result of lesser skin-effects.
However, seeing your comments suggesting utilising some alternatives (which I knew to be less good sonically) I politely attempted to explain why this was not such a good idea, and went on to tell Niclas several different practical methods of achieving his stated goal of avoiding (or strictly-speaking delaying) this dreaded oxidation.
For anyone's information, I know of two companies in the UK who use Teflon wrapped (silver) wires in construction of their high-end cables, one using plumbers type soft PTFE tape, and the other using the semi-rigid PTFE sleeving I suggested.
The latter were reviewed very well by P. Breuniger (99% certain this name is correct) in connection with Gramaphone Magazine, the 'oldest school' type of mag left in the UK, who are not given to hype, nor any way-out tweaking etc.
At the time of development of this particular cable, I also fabricated the same interconnect from the raw materials supplied by this manufacturer, with a view to providing some feed-back, on the resultant sound, to the manufacturer concerned.
This cable was constructed exactly as I described earlier (except for using '5 Nines' silver wire) with the wire being first carefully polished, subsequently sheathed in the semi-rigid PTFE sleeving, and the three individual 'runs' of this arrangement being braided together. (The three wires being : hot, cold, & drain for RFI etc.)
This braided cable sounds really superb, and sonically exceeds the performance of some 'factory-sheathed' hot-extruded Teflon/silver wire (also '5 Nines'), which Frank told me he had some involvement with on the 'materials side', but he did not, apparently, design this finished cable with which I made the sonic comparisons.
Also, after some eighteen months in use, even when viewed microscopically, there is no obvious sign of any sulphides or oxides on the unexposed surfaces.
Allen Wright in Germany, is responsible for some apparently truly wonderful-sounding cables which he fabricates from highly polished, high purity silver foil tapes, which were (originally) hand wrapped with PTFE plumbers tape. I say originally, because lately, he has apparently gone over to using adhesive plastic tapes for insulating the silver, which interestingly (in view of the comments that such tapes will cause problems due to corrosion), people claim to sound even better than the originals!😱
I don't have any, nor have I (yet!) tried any of Allen's cables, but by repute, they will stand against *any* proprietary cables on the market.😎 Check out Allen Wright's web page, if you wish to learn a little about making good-sounding cables, or better still, get hold of a copy of his book on this subject, "The Super Cables Cookbook".
Returning to the use of lubricants etc., apart from the simple fact that all the electronic contact cleaners/lubricants of which I am aware use some kind of synthetic oil for their lubricating properties (I hardly think that these would *accelerate* any future oxide formation as you have earlier suggested!), the 'carrier' in Cramolin/Pro-Gold is also some kind of synthetic oil, as well.
The earliest Cramolin I used was about 25 years ago, and in those days it came in a two-part pack. The exact formulas are clearly proprietary, but I believe the 'second part' (blue colour) of the application which is used after the 'first step' of cleaning with the red solution, is merely some synthetic oil with added colour. It was merely intended as a preservative and lubricant and was described by the makers, Caig Labs, as such.
I first heard of using Cramolin on cables through Absolute Sounds in the UK who had this material applied to their high-end wires in production, certainly about 20/25 years ago.
Unlike another of your implications, a product like Cramolin is not 'selective' in how or where it is effective, and indeed it is also self-healing if the surface is broken, and it can be clearly seen to 'creep' across a piece of tarnished metal.
Whether such a product is/was designed for this application or not, its properties are just as effective on wires as any other metal surface, as my long-term tests have ably demonstrated.
According to Caig (and I have no reason to doubt the truth of these claims, bearing in mind my experiences) Cramolin and its derivatives like Pro-Gold and DeoxIT etc. molecularly bond to the base metal to seal and protect it, it is long-lasting in effect (up to 10 years), it contains deoxidisers, preservatives, conductivity enhancers, arcing & RFI inhibitors and anti-tarnishing compounds.
If you consult Caig's website, page www.caig.com/index1.htm, you will see a chart of simulated exposures of treated metal (tin plated copper, in this case) which I confess I had not seen before.
This confirms my earlier comment 'in spades' in that not only does it show "an order of magnitude of improvement" over time as I had said, but after one year (for example) the resistivity of the untreated sample was some 5000 times higher than that which was treated with Pro-Gold. It is not possible to make any realistic comparisons on a much greater time delay, because the untreated sample goes off the chart.
Interestingly, the rise in the treated sample after *ten years* does *not* rise to more than two orders of magnitude *below* the untreated version!
So, even if these claims are in any way exaggerated or, having been simulated are not completely accurate, I think my earlier comments were very reasonable.
Finally, I do hope that those who are seriously interested in getting to the bottom of such matters relating to Wires or cables and their oxidation, together with ways and means of retarding this adverse affect, will now have something worthwhile to go on.🙂
Also, never forget that specifications of wires and/or insulations often don't translate absolutely into their 'sonic' attributes.
Regards,
I didn't understand your post #18, so what gives, as they say?🙁
Sy,
Having had a refreshing nights sleep, and thinking further on the subject, I thought it may be helpful to expand on some of my earlier comments.
Please bear in mind Niclas' original request which, after saying he had considered the various choices available by way of wires, he wished to know "Would using bare copper....work well?" and "Will oxidised copper conduct poorer than shiny new copper", and ultimately "If the answer is no, then I can obviously skip the Teflon", which indicated (to me at least!) that he had considered 'sheathing' in some manner the bare copper he had in mind to use.
Of course, had he asked a different question like perhaps "which wire do you think sounds the best", I would have followed the lead of several others, and said that 'purpose made' teflon wire would be a better choice, anyway. I would probably have added "what kind of copper do you have in mind, bog-standard, OF, Tough pitch, OHNO continuous-casting, long crystal," etc., as they all have different sonic attributes, and then gone on to say "keep the gauge of copper down to very much smaller than you would expect", as this will also improve sonics as a result of lesser skin-effects.
However, seeing your comments suggesting utilising some alternatives (which I knew to be less good sonically) I politely attempted to explain why this was not such a good idea, and went on to tell Niclas several different practical methods of achieving his stated goal of avoiding (or strictly-speaking delaying) this dreaded oxidation.
For anyone's information, I know of two companies in the UK who use Teflon wrapped (silver) wires in construction of their high-end cables, one using plumbers type soft PTFE tape, and the other using the semi-rigid PTFE sleeving I suggested.
The latter were reviewed very well by P. Breuniger (99% certain this name is correct) in connection with Gramaphone Magazine, the 'oldest school' type of mag left in the UK, who are not given to hype, nor any way-out tweaking etc.
At the time of development of this particular cable, I also fabricated the same interconnect from the raw materials supplied by this manufacturer, with a view to providing some feed-back, on the resultant sound, to the manufacturer concerned.
This cable was constructed exactly as I described earlier (except for using '5 Nines' silver wire) with the wire being first carefully polished, subsequently sheathed in the semi-rigid PTFE sleeving, and the three individual 'runs' of this arrangement being braided together. (The three wires being : hot, cold, & drain for RFI etc.)
This braided cable sounds really superb, and sonically exceeds the performance of some 'factory-sheathed' hot-extruded Teflon/silver wire (also '5 Nines'), which Frank told me he had some involvement with on the 'materials side', but he did not, apparently, design this finished cable with which I made the sonic comparisons.
Also, after some eighteen months in use, even when viewed microscopically, there is no obvious sign of any sulphides or oxides on the unexposed surfaces.
Allen Wright in Germany, is responsible for some apparently truly wonderful-sounding cables which he fabricates from highly polished, high purity silver foil tapes, which were (originally) hand wrapped with PTFE plumbers tape. I say originally, because lately, he has apparently gone over to using adhesive plastic tapes for insulating the silver, which interestingly (in view of the comments that such tapes will cause problems due to corrosion), people claim to sound even better than the originals!😱
I don't have any, nor have I (yet!) tried any of Allen's cables, but by repute, they will stand against *any* proprietary cables on the market.😎 Check out Allen Wright's web page, if you wish to learn a little about making good-sounding cables, or better still, get hold of a copy of his book on this subject, "The Super Cables Cookbook".
Returning to the use of lubricants etc., apart from the simple fact that all the electronic contact cleaners/lubricants of which I am aware use some kind of synthetic oil for their lubricating properties (I hardly think that these would *accelerate* any future oxide formation as you have earlier suggested!), the 'carrier' in Cramolin/Pro-Gold is also some kind of synthetic oil, as well.
The earliest Cramolin I used was about 25 years ago, and in those days it came in a two-part pack. The exact formulas are clearly proprietary, but I believe the 'second part' (blue colour) of the application which is used after the 'first step' of cleaning with the red solution, is merely some synthetic oil with added colour. It was merely intended as a preservative and lubricant and was described by the makers, Caig Labs, as such.
I first heard of using Cramolin on cables through Absolute Sounds in the UK who had this material applied to their high-end wires in production, certainly about 20/25 years ago.
Unlike another of your implications, a product like Cramolin is not 'selective' in how or where it is effective, and indeed it is also self-healing if the surface is broken, and it can be clearly seen to 'creep' across a piece of tarnished metal.
Whether such a product is/was designed for this application or not, its properties are just as effective on wires as any other metal surface, as my long-term tests have ably demonstrated.
According to Caig (and I have no reason to doubt the truth of these claims, bearing in mind my experiences) Cramolin and its derivatives like Pro-Gold and DeoxIT etc. molecularly bond to the base metal to seal and protect it, it is long-lasting in effect (up to 10 years), it contains deoxidisers, preservatives, conductivity enhancers, arcing & RFI inhibitors and anti-tarnishing compounds.
If you consult Caig's website, page www.caig.com/index1.htm, you will see a chart of simulated exposures of treated metal (tin plated copper, in this case) which I confess I had not seen before.
This confirms my earlier comment 'in spades' in that not only does it show "an order of magnitude of improvement" over time as I had said, but after one year (for example) the resistivity of the untreated sample was some 5000 times higher than that which was treated with Pro-Gold. It is not possible to make any realistic comparisons on a much greater time delay, because the untreated sample goes off the chart.
Interestingly, the rise in the treated sample after *ten years* does *not* rise to more than two orders of magnitude *below* the untreated version!
So, even if these claims are in any way exaggerated or, having been simulated are not completely accurate, I think my earlier comments were very reasonable.
Finally, I do hope that those who are seriously interested in getting to the bottom of such matters relating to Wires or cables and their oxidation, together with ways and means of retarding this adverse affect, will now have something worthwhile to go on.🙂
Also, never forget that specifications of wires and/or insulations often don't translate absolutely into their 'sonic' attributes.
Regards,
NOTHING GIVES.
Hi Bob,
I was just adding to the fact that if oxidised silver wasn't conductive we never would have had pictures as we know them.
This is of course as opposed to oxidised copper.
Cheers,😉
Hi Bob,
I was just adding to the fact that if oxidised silver wasn't conductive we never would have had pictures as we know them.
This is of course as opposed to oxidised copper.
Cheers,😉
Send him to bed with no supper!
Naughty old Frank!
I wondered if that was what you were getting at.
So, not only did you try to lead us 'off topic' again, but you also put on your devil's advocate hat, too!
Just wait till I tell Mrfeedback about your disgraceful antics.
As usual, you are nearly right, of course! However, I did not say what you suggest, that "oxidised silver wasn't conductive".
What I did say was that it was "not" good, which perhaps because it was after 2 AM here, was uncharacteristically careless of me, under the circumstances.
What I should have said was it is "less" good (than silver suphide or 'clean' silver) as a conductor, rather than "not" good.
I don't remember just now where I read the figures, but I seem to recall that sil sulphide is almost identical to 'clean' silver, whereas sil oxide was substantially more resistive. Copper oxide is much worse, I grant you.
Anyway, I will give you a point for trying, and I would hate to have mislead anyone over such a grave matter as this!
I stand firmly behind *all* of the rest of my comments, though, simply because I know from experience that they do actually work.
Regards,
fdegrove said:
Naughty old Frank!
I wondered if that was what you were getting at.
So, not only did you try to lead us 'off topic' again, but you also put on your devil's advocate hat, too!
Just wait till I tell Mrfeedback about your disgraceful antics.
As usual, you are nearly right, of course! However, I did not say what you suggest, that "oxidised silver wasn't conductive".
What I did say was that it was "not" good, which perhaps because it was after 2 AM here, was uncharacteristically careless of me, under the circumstances.
What I should have said was it is "less" good (than silver suphide or 'clean' silver) as a conductor, rather than "not" good.
I don't remember just now where I read the figures, but I seem to recall that sil sulphide is almost identical to 'clean' silver, whereas sil oxide was substantially more resistive. Copper oxide is much worse, I grant you.
Anyway, I will give you a point for trying, and I would hate to have mislead anyone over such a grave matter as this!
I stand firmly behind *all* of the rest of my comments, though, simply because I know from experience that they do actually work.
Regards,
I'LL MAKE IT UP TO YOU.
Hi,
While you were busy typing your message I got to work and guess what I found for you....
SILVER FOIL
Cheers,😉
P.S.I''l see if I can find a source for bare silver foil conductors too.
Hi,
While you were busy typing your message I got to work and guess what I found for you....
SILVER FOIL
Cheers,😉
P.S.I''l see if I can find a source for bare silver foil conductors too.
Lots of apples and oranges there, Bob. Cramolin and similar compounds are NOT used to prevent oxidation of wires. And that's because *in that application* they don't work. They are used to prevent *contact* oxidation, a very, very different thing. And you might go and research the mechanism- it is NOT via an oxygen barrier. You might also look up the O2 permeability of various oils- mineral, "synthetic" (which are, at base, still hydrocarbon oils), silicone, fluorocabon, and the like. And you may want to see how many of those people in aerospace, communications, biomedical, and the like use bare copper wire with leaky insulation- or merely oiled up.
You might, while you're at it, go look up the conductivities of silver oxide and silver sulfide. Silver plate is almost universally used in HF waveguides *specifically* because silver oxide is such a good conductor, and that's what forms on a silver surface. Then compare that to the properties of copper oxides. Bare copper wire may satisfy someone's notion of fashion, but to give accurate and credible answers to a question, one must note that bare copper, without an *impermeable* and hermetic outer layer (not wrapped tape!) or some sort of plating (which amounts to the same thing), is inherently limited in lifetime, unless HF degradation is acceptable because of surface corrosion. I'm no wire-freak, but it sure wouldn't be acceptable in MY system.
The improvement of sonics by the use of long crystals or silver or rhodium mined by African virgins and the like is still a contention (after many years and many millions of dollars) that has NO supporting evidence, just belief and assertion. Much like homeopathy and talking to the dead. At the end of the day, what will work is something that has reasonably low resistance, reasonably low inductance, reasonably low capacitance, and most importantly, is not degrading day by day.
You may be well-meaning (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), but I think it's irresponsible to recommend unreliable methods based on a lack of understanding of the material science involved and on unsubstantiated assertions about "sonics."
You might, while you're at it, go look up the conductivities of silver oxide and silver sulfide. Silver plate is almost universally used in HF waveguides *specifically* because silver oxide is such a good conductor, and that's what forms on a silver surface. Then compare that to the properties of copper oxides. Bare copper wire may satisfy someone's notion of fashion, but to give accurate and credible answers to a question, one must note that bare copper, without an *impermeable* and hermetic outer layer (not wrapped tape!) or some sort of plating (which amounts to the same thing), is inherently limited in lifetime, unless HF degradation is acceptable because of surface corrosion. I'm no wire-freak, but it sure wouldn't be acceptable in MY system.
The improvement of sonics by the use of long crystals or silver or rhodium mined by African virgins and the like is still a contention (after many years and many millions of dollars) that has NO supporting evidence, just belief and assertion. Much like homeopathy and talking to the dead. At the end of the day, what will work is something that has reasonably low resistance, reasonably low inductance, reasonably low capacitance, and most importantly, is not degrading day by day.
You may be well-meaning (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), but I think it's irresponsible to recommend unreliable methods based on a lack of understanding of the material science involved and on unsubstantiated assertions about "sonics."
Re: I'LL MAKE IT UP TO YOU.
Hi Frank OLD PALL!!!!!!!
Now that's much more like it, and very handy to know.
I may now just decide to give you another chance, and keep you on for a little longer, depending on your behaviour.
I do have far too many 'development jobs' (which, as you know can take almost forever) already on the go, but I will try making up some of these sil foil conductors sometime soon.
I believe Allen Wright sells the raw materials and kits etc., but when I last looked at his site over a year ago, the prices were not exactly a gift, but I don't entirely blame him for that!
Out of interest, have you listened to any of these foil cables, yet?
I like the Alpha-core inductors (copper, I haven't yet stretched to trying their silver versions) best of all of the many inductors I have ever tried, so, if the silver cables sound in proportion, I guess they must be pretty whizzo!
Lets get an earlier night tonight before the 'sig. other halves' kick up too much stink.😱
It was nearly 3 AM last night when I finally hit the sack, and we are hardly on 'diplomatic terms' now!
What's happened to ERIC, talking about sleeping. Is that all he does now? 😉
Regards,
fdegrove said:Hi,
While you were busy typing your message I got to work and guess what I found for you....
SILVER FOIL
Cheers,😉
P.S.I''l see if I can find a source for bare silver foil conductors too.
Hi Frank OLD PALL!!!!!!!
Now that's much more like it, and very handy to know.
I may now just decide to give you another chance, and keep you on for a little longer, depending on your behaviour.
I do have far too many 'development jobs' (which, as you know can take almost forever) already on the go, but I will try making up some of these sil foil conductors sometime soon.
I believe Allen Wright sells the raw materials and kits etc., but when I last looked at his site over a year ago, the prices were not exactly a gift, but I don't entirely blame him for that!
Out of interest, have you listened to any of these foil cables, yet?
I like the Alpha-core inductors (copper, I haven't yet stretched to trying their silver versions) best of all of the many inductors I have ever tried, so, if the silver cables sound in proportion, I guess they must be pretty whizzo!
Lets get an earlier night tonight before the 'sig. other halves' kick up too much stink.😱
It was nearly 3 AM last night when I finally hit the sack, and we are hardly on 'diplomatic terms' now!
What's happened to ERIC, talking about sleeping. Is that all he does now? 😉
Regards,
OSCAR
Hi,
To paraphrase one of my faved authors:
I have got the simplest of tastes,I'm only satisfied with the best.😎
Bob,the foil conductor is nothing new really.
When I was doing design work for the Deskadel range of cables,and I designed them from the ground up if I may say so,I already suggested the hollow conductors to my client.
The factory objected to it so it got sidetracked.
These are nothing new to RF people where skin effect becomes really important to passing VHF unaltered.
Not to foils as such,but hollow conductors.
Fabulous sound especailly the silver ones.
What you need for I/C cable is a PTFE carrier for the silver tube with // runs for send and return + another PTFE insulator + a silver foil RF shield.
Alternatively you can wrap the foil around the PTFE tube as well which is a lot easier for DIYers.
Now try to source that one.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
To paraphrase one of my faved authors:
I have got the simplest of tastes,I'm only satisfied with the best.😎
Bob,the foil conductor is nothing new really.
When I was doing design work for the Deskadel range of cables,and I designed them from the ground up if I may say so,I already suggested the hollow conductors to my client.
The factory objected to it so it got sidetracked.
These are nothing new to RF people where skin effect becomes really important to passing VHF unaltered.
Not to foils as such,but hollow conductors.
Fabulous sound especailly the silver ones.
What you need for I/C cable is a PTFE carrier for the silver tube with // runs for send and return + another PTFE insulator + a silver foil RF shield.
Alternatively you can wrap the foil around the PTFE tube as well which is a lot easier for DIYers.
Now try to source that one.
Cheers,😉
DEFINITIONS
Hi,
LOL.
That would very much depend on the definition of the very passive verb "to sleep",won't it?
Pretty sure he isn't hibernating like I do.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
LOL.
That would very much depend on the definition of the very passive verb "to sleep",won't it?
Pretty sure he isn't hibernating like I do.
Cheers,😉
Frank: Just for fun, you might want to try this. Get a tube of your Audiophile Approved Diameter Teflon (or similar fluoropolymer) tubing. Activate the surface with a corona discharge or a blown arc- get the surface energy above 30 or so dyne-cm (alternately, you could activate the surface with something like potassium naphthalate, but that's pretty nasty stuff). Now, deposit the silver directly using an electroless bath. Voila! A silver foil-equivalent with no seams, no wrap, and flexible. And relatively cheap, too.
I despair!
Sy,
Why do you continue to refuse to properly read what I have said?
The example used in Cramolin's test under the reference given was for a 3/4" square plate, (*not* an edge connector, or whatever) and if this plate with a surface area of just over 1/2 square inch was drawn out into a wire it would probably give a reasonably similar surface area to a length of copper interconnect. I am completely guessing here as I really don't wish to waste the time on using a calculater to work it out!
The fact remains that Cramolin is (or has been, I don't know for certain if it still is) used in production when wires are (were) made for Absolute Sounds in the UK, and I am sure they will confirm this if you ask them.
Far more importantly, I also have *many* wires which have been treated by me in this same way, and they don't show any signs of oxidation (compared with any untreated parts.)
Instead of preaching to me about this, and continually advising me that this is impossible (or whatever), why don't you get hold of some of this material and do the simple test, yourself?
When you have done so, I will graciously accept your aplogy for *your* misleading comments.
I have never for one moment suggested that anyone in the professions you mentioned would use bare copper with *any* form of treatment, since, if you will only read *clearly* what I keep on saying, we *all* agree that it is not the best way of insulating wires. You are merely being antagonistic in suggesting this.
What I have said is that *Cramolin* is used by these people. (Including: Bell & Howell, Boeing, Fluke, General Electric, Grumman Aerospace, Hewlett-Packard, Motorola, Nakamachi, RCA, Switchcraft, T.I., Xerox, and many others, who are not renowned for using "snake-oil" products.)
However, regardless of any of my personal recommendations, and whether your experiences reach this far or not, *bare copper* is considered by the cognoscenti to be one of (if not the absolute) best conductors from the 'sonic' aspect-period!
Cardas (amongst others) makes *bare* OFC connectors which are considered to be exceptional in sonic terms, even though they are a real pain to keep clean. Just have a look at Peter Daniel's Gainclones, to see some.
I even seem to recall that there is currently a WIKI on this Forum to buy some of these bare copper connectors at advantageous prices, but doubtless your response would be that they are wasting their money, without ever having 'listened' to one.
I am not even personally advocating using bare copper (under *any* circumstances), if you read what I have said properly, but I have stuck rigidly to the questions asked by Niclas as to how one can retard the onset of oxidation of bare copper wires.
I won't get into the subject of rhodium plating connectors etc (although virtually all of my own connectors are rhodium plated, including the mains plugs and sockets, simply because they 'sound' better than anything else I have *yet* tried), but to suggest that merely because there isn't much readily available 'proof' as you seem to need, about *any* issue, appears to be sufficient for you to imply that the matter is bogus or incorrect, defies any logic.
As I said a long while back, I don't wish to cross swords with you, nor do I wish to behave in a retalliatory manner, but you seem to ask for this.
Regrettably your quaint and simplistic view over the LCRs of wires/connectors etc. being the determining factors in the 'sound' of these components, is probably about 30 years behind the times, I am really sad to need to say.
Also, when you can prove to me that (for example) today is Friday, I will start to think about coming up with some 'proof' about what I believe in from personal experiences of 'listening' to components.
You cannot 'prove' that it is Friday today, but because of familiarity, experiences, habits or whatever, we all accept that it is so, rather than adopting any bigoted stance that 'until you can prove it, it cannot be so'. Maybe when you have thought about this for a while, you will come to the inevitable conclusion that it is perhaps Monday, since by your apparent yardstick it cannot be Friday!
After 30 or more years of patiently 'listening' to components, I do happen to be rather familiar with this aspect too (as well as remembering all the days of the week!), but because you have not done this, you are not. Because of this deficiency in your personal experiences, it does not follow that no such things as 'sonic' influences (due to different components/surface treatments, or whatever) exist, any more than saying because all grass is green, all green things must therefore be grass!
Finally, I won't waste any further time on such a wasteful and non-productive discourse, and you are quite entitled to your own opinions about anything.
However, do not say on the Forum that I am in any way "irresponsible", until you are able to read properly and precisely what I have said in this thread, *and* you have tried out what I have suggested and found that you have come to a different conclusion from my results.
Regards,
Sy,
Why do you continue to refuse to properly read what I have said?
The example used in Cramolin's test under the reference given was for a 3/4" square plate, (*not* an edge connector, or whatever) and if this plate with a surface area of just over 1/2 square inch was drawn out into a wire it would probably give a reasonably similar surface area to a length of copper interconnect. I am completely guessing here as I really don't wish to waste the time on using a calculater to work it out!
The fact remains that Cramolin is (or has been, I don't know for certain if it still is) used in production when wires are (were) made for Absolute Sounds in the UK, and I am sure they will confirm this if you ask them.
Far more importantly, I also have *many* wires which have been treated by me in this same way, and they don't show any signs of oxidation (compared with any untreated parts.)
Instead of preaching to me about this, and continually advising me that this is impossible (or whatever), why don't you get hold of some of this material and do the simple test, yourself?
When you have done so, I will graciously accept your aplogy for *your* misleading comments.
I have never for one moment suggested that anyone in the professions you mentioned would use bare copper with *any* form of treatment, since, if you will only read *clearly* what I keep on saying, we *all* agree that it is not the best way of insulating wires. You are merely being antagonistic in suggesting this.
What I have said is that *Cramolin* is used by these people. (Including: Bell & Howell, Boeing, Fluke, General Electric, Grumman Aerospace, Hewlett-Packard, Motorola, Nakamachi, RCA, Switchcraft, T.I., Xerox, and many others, who are not renowned for using "snake-oil" products.)
However, regardless of any of my personal recommendations, and whether your experiences reach this far or not, *bare copper* is considered by the cognoscenti to be one of (if not the absolute) best conductors from the 'sonic' aspect-period!
Cardas (amongst others) makes *bare* OFC connectors which are considered to be exceptional in sonic terms, even though they are a real pain to keep clean. Just have a look at Peter Daniel's Gainclones, to see some.
I even seem to recall that there is currently a WIKI on this Forum to buy some of these bare copper connectors at advantageous prices, but doubtless your response would be that they are wasting their money, without ever having 'listened' to one.
I am not even personally advocating using bare copper (under *any* circumstances), if you read what I have said properly, but I have stuck rigidly to the questions asked by Niclas as to how one can retard the onset of oxidation of bare copper wires.
I won't get into the subject of rhodium plating connectors etc (although virtually all of my own connectors are rhodium plated, including the mains plugs and sockets, simply because they 'sound' better than anything else I have *yet* tried), but to suggest that merely because there isn't much readily available 'proof' as you seem to need, about *any* issue, appears to be sufficient for you to imply that the matter is bogus or incorrect, defies any logic.
As I said a long while back, I don't wish to cross swords with you, nor do I wish to behave in a retalliatory manner, but you seem to ask for this.
Regrettably your quaint and simplistic view over the LCRs of wires/connectors etc. being the determining factors in the 'sound' of these components, is probably about 30 years behind the times, I am really sad to need to say.
Also, when you can prove to me that (for example) today is Friday, I will start to think about coming up with some 'proof' about what I believe in from personal experiences of 'listening' to components.
You cannot 'prove' that it is Friday today, but because of familiarity, experiences, habits or whatever, we all accept that it is so, rather than adopting any bigoted stance that 'until you can prove it, it cannot be so'. Maybe when you have thought about this for a while, you will come to the inevitable conclusion that it is perhaps Monday, since by your apparent yardstick it cannot be Friday!
After 30 or more years of patiently 'listening' to components, I do happen to be rather familiar with this aspect too (as well as remembering all the days of the week!), but because you have not done this, you are not. Because of this deficiency in your personal experiences, it does not follow that no such things as 'sonic' influences (due to different components/surface treatments, or whatever) exist, any more than saying because all grass is green, all green things must therefore be grass!
Finally, I won't waste any further time on such a wasteful and non-productive discourse, and you are quite entitled to your own opinions about anything.
However, do not say on the Forum that I am in any way "irresponsible", until you are able to read properly and precisely what I have said in this thread, *and* you have tried out what I have suggested and found that you have come to a different conclusion from my results.
Regards,
Hi Frank,
Yes, I do realise that using 'foils' isn't a new concept, from all kinds of sources, not the least being Allen's book.
However, strangely (only because I haven't yet gotten hold of suitable materials) I haven't listened to any 'proprietary' silver foils in my own system, nor attempted to construct any.
I well recall wading through Malcolm Hawksford's lengthy tome " The Essex Echo" in either Hi-Fi News or perhaps Wireless World, in 1984 (I believe), and that soon scotched the simple 'low resistance rules' lobby at a stroke by suggesting that the (then) heretically thin wires of say half a mm or so dia. are sonically better because of the (relative) lack of skin effect.
I tried many 30G Kynar wire wrap DIY cables myself, after then, and defying all logic and expectations, I couldn't believe how strong the bass sounded, which to me, if anything was completely counter-intuitive, that certainly was!
I have also made some cables similar to your suggestion, but instead of foils I used 0.6 mm silver wire in individual semi-rigid PTFE sleeves, counter-wound around a larger core of PTFE sleeving, to provide a little overall inductance. It was interesting to vary this inductance by increasing/decreasing the number of 'turns' per unit length which can have a sonic affect at the HF end.
Another idea I tried , bearing in mind my remaining association with the silver/ jewellery trade was to roll some of this fine silver stuff to a 'flat' section, and thread it through a PTFE tube.
In the sil/jew trade it is common practice to draw your own wires through steel dies, and/or roll it through steel rollers like the old washing mangles to produce sections suitable for making ring shanks etc., and I still had access to some 'old' acquaintances' draw benches and rollers.
You wouldn't believe how crude the operation is/was, compared with what you are used to with diamond dies, immediate cryo treatments and lacquering etc., but, nevertheless, it did the job quite well for me.
I was able to flatten some of this fine silver wire so that it was then about 4.5 mm by about 0.2/3 mm (from memory) but I gradually stretched it widthways until it it just occupied the diameter of the bore of some approx 5mm overall O/D thin wall semi-rigid PTFE sleeving.
(Who mentioned 'hornets nests'!🙁 )
I then polished it with Brasso and wiped it with (the now infamous) Cramolin (because I always enjoy doing futile things during these development trials), and carefully pushed it through the tubing so that (in section) it lodged across the inner diameter of the PTFE. It was a very tricky operation (not well suited to production on a large scale😱 ) but with the PTFE being so slippery together with the 'C' (diplomacy rules!) lubrication, it was a success with some care. Had I not been able to roll out the wire myself to just the correct width for this operation, I would never have succeeded with this type of cable construction.
As you can imagine, the width was critical since if it was too wide it would not push through over half a meter of sleeve, but if too narrow, it would 'lay' with one flat side against the inner wall of the PTFE tube.
This meant, in effect, that I had a very narrow silver 'foil' only supported by its wider outer edges (in PTFE too!) and I sealed the ends (actually with candle wax, temporarily, originally, but I have never changed this subsequently as there seemed to be no need) to prevent any ingress of air into the tube.
Apart from the 'C' treatment, I figured that all of the oxygen/nitrogen/hydrogen and any other possible contaminents remaining in such a small space would soon get 'used up' in trying to oxidise (or whatever) the parent metal, and the thought of trying to 'evacuate' it was beyond common-sense at that point.
This resulted in an almost entirely air dielectric cable and with only Teflon in the immediate vicinity, and which was quite usable in practice for an interconnect.
These are the very best sounding interconnects I have ever heard or used in my system, by some margin, and I always use these as my current 'reference' when conducting any other 'listening' trials.
They are beter than my Siltechs, some ANs I had on loan, the Silver A/S Star-Quads, and all my other home-brew cables.
I have yet to hear anything anywhere near as good, yet alone any better. 😎
So now you might see just why I am very interested to try some 'pucka' silver foils sometime, merely to see if they are perhaps even better.🙂
Regards,
Yes, I do realise that using 'foils' isn't a new concept, from all kinds of sources, not the least being Allen's book.
However, strangely (only because I haven't yet gotten hold of suitable materials) I haven't listened to any 'proprietary' silver foils in my own system, nor attempted to construct any.
I well recall wading through Malcolm Hawksford's lengthy tome " The Essex Echo" in either Hi-Fi News or perhaps Wireless World, in 1984 (I believe), and that soon scotched the simple 'low resistance rules' lobby at a stroke by suggesting that the (then) heretically thin wires of say half a mm or so dia. are sonically better because of the (relative) lack of skin effect.
I tried many 30G Kynar wire wrap DIY cables myself, after then, and defying all logic and expectations, I couldn't believe how strong the bass sounded, which to me, if anything was completely counter-intuitive, that certainly was!
I have also made some cables similar to your suggestion, but instead of foils I used 0.6 mm silver wire in individual semi-rigid PTFE sleeves, counter-wound around a larger core of PTFE sleeving, to provide a little overall inductance. It was interesting to vary this inductance by increasing/decreasing the number of 'turns' per unit length which can have a sonic affect at the HF end.
Another idea I tried , bearing in mind my remaining association with the silver/ jewellery trade was to roll some of this fine silver stuff to a 'flat' section, and thread it through a PTFE tube.
In the sil/jew trade it is common practice to draw your own wires through steel dies, and/or roll it through steel rollers like the old washing mangles to produce sections suitable for making ring shanks etc., and I still had access to some 'old' acquaintances' draw benches and rollers.
You wouldn't believe how crude the operation is/was, compared with what you are used to with diamond dies, immediate cryo treatments and lacquering etc., but, nevertheless, it did the job quite well for me.
I was able to flatten some of this fine silver wire so that it was then about 4.5 mm by about 0.2/3 mm (from memory) but I gradually stretched it widthways until it it just occupied the diameter of the bore of some approx 5mm overall O/D thin wall semi-rigid PTFE sleeving.
(Who mentioned 'hornets nests'!🙁 )
I then polished it with Brasso and wiped it with (the now infamous) Cramolin (because I always enjoy doing futile things during these development trials), and carefully pushed it through the tubing so that (in section) it lodged across the inner diameter of the PTFE. It was a very tricky operation (not well suited to production on a large scale😱 ) but with the PTFE being so slippery together with the 'C' (diplomacy rules!) lubrication, it was a success with some care. Had I not been able to roll out the wire myself to just the correct width for this operation, I would never have succeeded with this type of cable construction.
As you can imagine, the width was critical since if it was too wide it would not push through over half a meter of sleeve, but if too narrow, it would 'lay' with one flat side against the inner wall of the PTFE tube.
This meant, in effect, that I had a very narrow silver 'foil' only supported by its wider outer edges (in PTFE too!) and I sealed the ends (actually with candle wax, temporarily, originally, but I have never changed this subsequently as there seemed to be no need) to prevent any ingress of air into the tube.
Apart from the 'C' treatment, I figured that all of the oxygen/nitrogen/hydrogen and any other possible contaminents remaining in such a small space would soon get 'used up' in trying to oxidise (or whatever) the parent metal, and the thought of trying to 'evacuate' it was beyond common-sense at that point.
This resulted in an almost entirely air dielectric cable and with only Teflon in the immediate vicinity, and which was quite usable in practice for an interconnect.
These are the very best sounding interconnects I have ever heard or used in my system, by some margin, and I always use these as my current 'reference' when conducting any other 'listening' trials.
They are beter than my Siltechs, some ANs I had on loan, the Silver A/S Star-Quads, and all my other home-brew cables.
I have yet to hear anything anywhere near as good, yet alone any better. 😎
So now you might see just why I am very interested to try some 'pucka' silver foils sometime, merely to see if they are perhaps even better.🙂
Regards,
Bob, Why do you fail to understand that your opinion is just that, an opinion. I haven't seen any reference to measurements, chemical formulas or laws of physics in detail that support what you say. It's just your opinion, and we can all take it or leave it as such.
Later
Bruce
Later
Bruce
Hi!stappvargen said:
You succeeded to create a really burning topic (like when I started the Black Gate humbug thread) but I don't dare to answer you in public
I ->
NOT A TRUE VIKING.
Hi,
Since when are you chicken,Per-Anders.🙄
Go for it,I'll supply a free wheelchair.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Since when are you chicken,Per-Anders.🙄
Go for it,I'll supply a free wheelchair.
Cheers,😉
HDTVman said:Bob, Why do you fail to understand that your opinion is just that, an opinion. I haven't seen any reference to measurements, chemical formulas or laws of physics in detail that support what you say. It's just your opinion, and we can all take it or leave it as such.
Later
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
I have never "failed to understand that my opinion is just that, an opinion", so I don't understand why you should mention that.
With similar respect to you as I have tried to show to Sy, I have not expressed *any* opinions (certainly none of my own) in this thread, as far as I am aware.
If I have, please indicate to me where I have done so as I cannot find any, and whether we are discussing an opinion or any fact, of course, you and anyone else are perfectly entitled to take it or leave it.
In fact the boot is on the other foot, if you are referring to my discourse with Sy.
I have merely answered a simple question which had been posed, by specifically giving the enquirer several different methods of varying efficacies for dealing with the particular concern which the poster, Niclas, had highlighted.
My comments were based on facts, as I have used all of the suggested methods myself, so no opinion enters into the picture here. The inevitable oxidation of copper *is* slowed up by a factor of many times with *all* of the methods I highlighted.
When Sy has consistently contradicted me and said that *what I have done, and have seen the long-term results of*, either *cannot be done or will not work* due to various theories or technical difficulties he has come up with, what would you expect me to say?
We are not talking about any subjective matters here, and any sighted person can readily see the effects of oxidising copper, as copper oxide is black!
I have tried to support my suggesting the use of the product Cramolin, for example, by providing a website reference for anyone to look at, but it seems that rather than simply read it properly and understand its fundamental message (i.e. that the product Pro-Gold reduced the surface resistivity across a piece of tinned copper plate 3/4" square by a factor of 5000!) Sy is insistant that this is not what this product should be used for.😱
I have similarly indicated several producers of high-end cables who have used some or all of the other methods of delaying tarnishing through the use of these other methods which I suggested, so what more do you want?
May I suggest that you read what I said again, and if you can point to me where I have expressed these supposed opinions, I will willingly look at what I said once more.
Regards,
WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...
Hi,
Bob & Bruce,don't get into a clinch on this,please...
The both of you have a point...
So,when all is said and done the ear is the ultimate measurement tool. 😎
Happy listening,😉
Hi,
Bob & Bruce,don't get into a clinch on this,please...
The both of you have a point...
So,when all is said and done the ear is the ultimate measurement tool. 😎
Happy listening,😉
Trying to untwist the nest of confusion, false analogy, and unsubstantiated claims would take more patience than I have. What few "facts" have been offered (such as the supposed superior conductivity of silver sulfide versus the oxide) are incorrect.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Hi all, and THANK YOU for the informative answers!
🙂
Bob:
I'll be sure to try your recipe for oxidization retardation. I should be able to find something similar to Cramolin or Pro-Gold in Sweden. If not then I'll just try the mineral oil.
I might even give solid core silver a chance now that money will be saved by not buying connectors... You never really can save money right? It's just a matter of what you spend it on!
😉
Per-Anders:
I'm in need of a couple of your Toroid transformers again, so maybe you can tell me your opinion on the matter later.
Time for me to hit the sheets.
Good Night!
/Niclas
🙂
Bob:
I'll be sure to try your recipe for oxidization retardation. I should be able to find something similar to Cramolin or Pro-Gold in Sweden. If not then I'll just try the mineral oil.
I might even give solid core silver a chance now that money will be saved by not buying connectors... You never really can save money right? It's just a matter of what you spend it on!
😉
Per-Anders:
I'm in need of a couple of your Toroid transformers again, so maybe you can tell me your opinion on the matter later.
Time for me to hit the sheets.
Good Night!
/Niclas
SY said:
Sy,
I am truly sorry you feel this way, since, as I said, I didn't wish to cross swords with you.
Much earlier on, I also said we will just have to agree to differ on this one, which I felt was suitably diplomatic, but I simply cannot quietly accept your later unwarranted accusation of my being "irresponsible".
Also, I have been entirely open and truthful based on my experiences, and I am sorry that you will not try some of these
suggestions out for yourself.
I do hope that Niclas will do as he has now said, and subsequently post his findings on the Forum in due course.
Regards,
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