And a whole lot of uncontrolled,subconscious, widely differing conclusions day to day.
I would never want to visit audiophilia
You might change your mind had you seen the girls. Oh La La. Oh wait a minute, that was Hugh's house. Your right, stay away from Audiophilia.
Thanks Doug,
Dan
Using agreed upon equipment, VERY consistently! Reference Recording is very consistent and well recorded.And a whole lot of uncontrolled,subconscious, widely differing conclusions day to day.
I would never want to visit audiophilia
When I have the chance, I do try to polarity swapping on other systems just to see how bad it has to get till it's not distinguishable.
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Here's a link to a web site where the guy how owns it is a very strong proponent of polarity issues - to the point where he's compiled a huge list of recordings; noting which are okay and which are reversed.
UltraBitPlatinum.com
Since the OP question has been morphed into an absolute phase discussion, I have a couple for the people who are pretty sure absolute phase is critical.
When you listen to a live snare drum, which side of the drum do you hear? When mic'd do you look at the waveform and wire to have the leading edge rise for snare side mic'ing, and fall for batter head mic'ing? Do you have to take a week off from work when both are used? Which side of a double bass string do you normally listen to?
When you listen to a live snare drum, which side of the drum do you hear? When mic'd do you look at the waveform and wire to have the leading edge rise for snare side mic'ing, and fall for batter head mic'ing? Do you have to take a week off from work when both are used? Which side of a double bass string do you normally listen to?
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Normally, I have the polarity set to non-inverting on my system. Most of the time when I stick a CD in the player, I'll take note of the label first and select the polarity based on that. If during the listening process, I find that the sound contains elements associated with inverted sonic characteristics, I'll switch the polarity to see what happens. I find accurate reproduction more pleasing. Of course I can still enjoy music with mixed polarity, but there is nothing like listening to live unamplified performances.
Linkwitz Lab – Sound Pictures – “September, 2004″ RInterestingly, I was wondering whether the modded mic has same polarity as unmodded one or not, it seems the polarity is the same.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/171053-significance-phase-11.html#post2282916Could you describe what those inverted sonic characteristics are?? Phase changes constantly with a music source so what "audible static characteristics" are there that enables you to do this??
Rob
For two or more way systems, I would always select a crossover design that will not require inverting between any two drivers. I tried a design that required such, and found that it is audible. Mainly the characteristics in listening are similar to absolute polarity but in the different spectrum ranges identified in individual instruments.
I know for a fact that if I put my tweeter out of phase it makes huge difference. But I am me not you. What I can tell you is that much much more comes into play than electrical and 1st or 2nd or any slope when adjusting phase. Examples are driver placement, cabinets, the driver themselves, room, room placement, ect. The point is forget about the electrical aspects completely and let you ear decide if it sounds better in or out. Just because its wired electrically in or out doesnt mean it is in or out.
Thanks for the input Soongsc.
So my next question would be what are the sonic characteristics of reverse polarity?
Thanks,
Dan
It does in that it's pretty easy to demonstrate that the phase doesn't matter much unless you're talking about interactions between multiple radiators. Even large phase shifts over the entire audio band don't matter very much unless abrupt. If that weren't true analog crossovers would have been totally useless all these years. If you can shift the phase of the top mid driver to invert 180 degrees by the crossover point without causing any other changes and wire the tweeter "backward" (if the tweeter drive signal is not inverted), you probably couldn't prove the tweeter was running "backward". I would never say that one human can't have an easier time detecting phase differences between a tone and it's harmonics. Someone heavy into physiology may actually have an opinion on whether that is highly likely. I can't say I've ever experienced it, though it would be neat to try.
With a lot of questions like this it boils down to, "What would I do about it anyway if I though it were important?" A lot of people like the full range speakers but they are not a universal solution.
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It seems to me that the way human hearing works, phase relationship as well as frequency response Does give us clues about our environement? If a caveman were yelling at you through a tunnel, would it sound exactly the same if the voice had the same frequency response as it did through the tunnel, but phase were just the same as it came out his mouth? Probably not. Part of the reason a poot into a toilet bowl sounds the way it does is because of phase shift. But if the phase shift is slow across the band there's not much information contained or lost in the shift, by my experience. That probably has to do with the environment not having very significant features for such shifts to occur, and us never holding on to mutations that saved lives as a result of sensitivity to them.
Far as minor shifts between drivers at crossover, that can have large effects in response, particularly polar response. Suddenly you're deep into crossover design where it's probably not so hard to leave me in the weeds, though I suppose it's all just trigonometry.
Far as minor shifts between drivers at crossover, that can have large effects in response, particularly polar response. Suddenly you're deep into crossover design where it's probably not so hard to leave me in the weeds, though I suppose it's all just trigonometry.
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A simple test that could probably be nailed 100% by a lot of people who consider themselves 'philes would be to sum 1 and 2kHz equal amplitude tones in phase, and then sum them with one tone inverted. Probably, experienced listeners, especially designers, might even be able to guess what you're doing. When you look at the output signal waveform at the summing node, I think you'll notice the peak power at the 1msec period will be higher for the in phase summing, probably being pretty audible. But, this is pretty much an extreme case, where the phase shift is 180 degrees within an octave. It tends to make people do things like flip the wires on the drivers. (What a mean trick it would be to play, stuff a narrow band phase inverting filter in the signal source just above or below the crossover frequency for someone that just finished wiring a 12dB passive crossover). For much slower transitions in phase it gets pretty hard to tell what's happening. It might even be pretty hard to make slow transitions happen without electronics (like a +-2 degree shift at the ends of the band in a good power amplifier), so it probably wont tell you much by ear or keep secrets about the natural world to hear them.
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