Gotcha, I mention it because I was talking about perceived changes and was just referring to improvement because that was the word classicalfan used. I take your point though, change or difference is a little less judgemental
I agree with you and Wolf that not all changes are necessarily improvements. But I used the word improvement intentionally in my original post, because it relates to the idea that moving the capacitor value from one that is far off from the crossover designers specification to one that is much closer is a reasonable explanation for hearing an actual improvement, not just a change.
Last edited:
Oh- and I do not have to explain why or how they are there. I just have to know that they are there and appreciate/loathe them. The fact that you have to know 'why' means you need to do the experiments I have as well as others to realize that you also do not know why they are in fact present, until there is an answer by a more intelligent soul than you or I to actually explain the reasons of such.
The burden of proof is not on me. I know the wind is there, as I can feel it. I know the differences in caps are there, because I can hear them.
Wolf
The burden of proof is not on me. I know the wind is there, as I can feel it. I know the differences in caps are there, because I can hear them.
Wolf
Wolf,
Yeah, but wind velocity can be measured. Very accurately, in fact. So even if you and I don't agree on it, the measurement will remove any doubt. But the difference in sound from various capacitor types of similar value has yet to be measured as far as I know.
I’ve followed a lot your posts in the past and find them to be very helpful. So I have a lot of respect for your opinions. But in this case, I must take exception to it.
No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever been able to explain why the dielectric insulator in capacitors of equal value can have an effect on the sound. It doesn’t matter whether that material is ceramic, film, mica, or any other insulating material. The little electrons in the plates on both sides of it don’t care. They behave exactly the same. There sometimes is a very small difference in the ESR, but most agree that it is too small to be heard except perhaps in electrolyics.
Sound can be easily measured and to the best of my knowledge no one has been able to see differences in those measurements based on changing from one brand of capacitors of a specific value to a different brand.
That results in the fact that most of the reports of sound improvement are completely subjective. And worse yet, none of them are being done by as controlled experiments supervised by independent parties. Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it.
I really chalk this up to confirmation bias, but the very people who I suspect of this adamantly deny that it could be them. For some reason they are above confirmation bias and are entirely objective in their testing result. Sorry, but I don’t buy it.
So until someone can present a reasonably scientific explanation for what people claim to be differences in sound based on the dielectric material I will continue to be a denier.
Give me a solid scientific explanation why one type of insulator between the plates of a capacitor sounds different from another and I’ll be happy to concede. But until then I’m sticking with the science as known.
Yeah, but wind velocity can be measured. Very accurately, in fact. So even if you and I don't agree on it, the measurement will remove any doubt. But the difference in sound from various capacitor types of similar value has yet to be measured as far as I know.
I’ve followed a lot your posts in the past and find them to be very helpful. So I have a lot of respect for your opinions. But in this case, I must take exception to it.
No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever been able to explain why the dielectric insulator in capacitors of equal value can have an effect on the sound. It doesn’t matter whether that material is ceramic, film, mica, or any other insulating material. The little electrons in the plates on both sides of it don’t care. They behave exactly the same. There sometimes is a very small difference in the ESR, but most agree that it is too small to be heard except perhaps in electrolyics.
Sound can be easily measured and to the best of my knowledge no one has been able to see differences in those measurements based on changing from one brand of capacitors of a specific value to a different brand.
That results in the fact that most of the reports of sound improvement are completely subjective. And worse yet, none of them are being done by as controlled experiments supervised by independent parties. Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it.
I really chalk this up to confirmation bias, but the very people who I suspect of this adamantly deny that it could be them. For some reason they are above confirmation bias and are entirely objective in their testing result. Sorry, but I don’t buy it.
So until someone can present a reasonably scientific explanation for what people claim to be differences in sound based on the dielectric material I will continue to be a denier.
Give me a solid scientific explanation why one type of insulator between the plates of a capacitor sounds different from another and I’ll be happy to concede. But until then I’m sticking with the science as known.
Last edited:
This might help you to understand what the differences possibly are…….of course I’ll wait for the obligatory ‘that’s well below any human auditory thresholds’
http://www.hificritic.com/uploads/2/8/8/0/28808909/classic-sc15-a_passive_role_with_note.pdf
http://www.hificritic.com/uploads/2/8/8/0/28808909/classic-sc15-a_passive_role_with_note.pdf
It's a very long and complex article. If you want to identify a specific section that makes a point about the variation in capacitor type as it affects crossover performance I will be glad to read it. But searching through all of that to find it is far more work than I am willing to do just to accommodate your position.
Last edited:
Regarding ceramic capacitors, many MLCCs change parameters (including capacitance value) when subject to shifts in DC bias, AC bias and temperature.
This is not necessarily a big headache for bypassing or decoupling voltage rails, but definitely makes them not recommendable for signal duties.
And if anything, the problems have worsened with newer, higher volumetric-density MLC capacitors.
DC and AC Bias Dependence of MLCC Capacitors Including Temperature Dependence – Passive Components Blog
Being incapable of hearing differences until spoon-fed with an explanation, is an excellent example of confirmation bias.
Not as much confirmation bias as imagining differences being heard for which there is no explanation at all.
Last edited:
No, I haven't tried it and have no intention of doing so. My main speakers right now are Piccolos that were designed by the late Jeff Bagby. I think they sound fantastic, particularly the SB Acoustics tweeter.
When I listen to classical music that includes high frequencies such as violins, piccolos, and triangles the sound is spectacular. I just cannot imagine improving on it by changing anything in Jeff's design. In fact, it is very likely that I would just screw it up by trying. So there is absolutely no point in me changing capacitors or anything else in this design.
Now if someone isn't really happy with the way their speakers sound and think that they can improve them, then by all means they should try. But I'm not in that camp and have no desire to be in it.
The capacitors, by the way, that come with the kit from Meniscus are Audyn Cap Q4s. They are modestly priced polypropylene caps with a 5% tolerance. When I ordered the kit from Meniscus I asked Mark if he thought that a capacitor upgrade would be a good idea. His answer was probably not and he was absolutely right. It's hard for me to imagine these speakers sounding any better than they do with these drivers.
Last edited:
Not strange at all.
The point is that when people make comparisons of two similar things they tend to confirm the one that they expect to be better. They usually base that expectation on one of the items being more expensive than the other. Or they perceive it to be of a higher quality. That's where confirmation bias comes in. They need some way to justify their additional expense or reason for choosing one over the other.
That is entirely different from what I am saying here. I'm not making any comparisons at all. Nor am I basing my opinion on cost. The Piccolos are very reasonably priced at only $400 for the pair. If these were $4000 per pair perhaps you could accuse me of confirmation bias. But at only $400 that doesn't hold.
To me these Piccolos sound great. They far exceed my expectations. If they didn't I would say so.
Last edited:
Maybe stop to think why that is? He's also stated he preferred the sound of a cheap speaker cable so your expensive is better bias idea isn't the case for him.
Yeah, I read the three laws. Not impressed with them for purposes of this discussion.
We pretty well understand how speaker drivers and crossover work right now. And performance is very predicable base on what we know.
Is it possible that some new revelation will come along to alter our understanding and change how we design things? Yes, it's possible. But it's also possible that no significant new things will be learned. There is no guarantee of that happening.
So in the meantime it makes the most sense to deal with what we know now and not conjecture about what might or might not be known in the future. Uncertainty can limit action.
How well do we understand how the hearing system creates and analyses an auditory scene from the, frankly, very poor, information it receives from the speakers?
You obviously don't understand what I have been writing. I never said that expensive is better.
My position is that capacitors of the same value will all sound the same regardless of their construction materials and that capacitors with tighter tolerances help keep those values true. Cost is not an issue. You can find capacitors with 5% tolerances at a very reasonable price.
No, I did not say that. Please quit trying to attribute things to me that are not true.
You obviously have a big problem with reading comprehension.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.