1. I believe you should do it.
2. I would say it would be reasonable if you first adopted design skills and basic understanding of how to do that.
3. Yes, it would be wiser to start off with a simpler (2 way) set
I advise to choose a good quality kit, treat the XO filter as
if it didn't exist at all and do the work all by yourself, after you have
made yourself familiar with speaker building. I you fail to be successful,
you can use its original filter and be happy with it. No loss, no risk.
I support Sreten's suggestion in post #8.
If you are doing near field monitoring in your home studio, the Seas KingRO4Y active speaker kit might be a good kit to consider. Gives you exposure to passive and active crossover designing.
Yes, yes, no and yes.
But only if you start with an already made design done by a good designer.
And stick to that design, if you change a driver or the shape of cabinets the outcome will be different and you'll have to change/design the crossover.
With $2k you have a nice budget, plenty of options.
Take a look at Troels site for some projects.
Regards,
Danny
If you are competent at woodworking and following a competent published design it doesn't matter whether the speaker is 2, 3 or 4 way with a simple or complicated cabinet. However, as soon as you start deviating from a competent design then knowledge is required in order to maintain competence. Without detailed speaker knowledge it is difficult to assess the competence of existing designs. In this thread you are receiving conflicting advice, some good and some bad. How well can you sort it out?
Is you $2k budget for a 5.1 system? Something like a pair of 3 way floor standing mains, a 3 way centre, a pair of 2 way surrounds and a subwoofer or two?
Is you $2k budget for a 5.1 system? Something like a pair of 3 way floor standing mains, a 3 way centre, a pair of 2 way surrounds and a subwoofer or two?
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IMO..
If you're not experienced, build something with a proven design. It's not wrong to copy a unit and it's the safest way to get your feet wet and not waste your investment. Someone else did all of the leg work but total failure is less apt to happen. If you're a cabinet maker, I'm sure you've followed directions before and was happy with the outcome..
If you're not experienced, build something with a proven design. It's not wrong to copy a unit and it's the safest way to get your feet wet and not waste your investment. Someone else did all of the leg work but total failure is less apt to happen. If you're a cabinet maker, I'm sure you've followed directions before and was happy with the outcome..
1 Yes and Yes
2 No and No
3 Yes build a pair of 2-way first
4 Maybe
I'm a just do it jump in the deep-end sort of bloke who's simply been lucky and only built one real disaster
Use some old fashioned easy to design for drivers and simple crossovers and the result can be very pleasing
Not stunning but workable
Look at the this whole thread as the drivers are available again
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/25590-diyaudio-reference-speaker-project.html
That Seas KingRO4Y looks like a very high end speaker, but having never programmed digital filters in the power amp they recommend, I can't help thinking it could be difficult to get right for a newbie. Does that part require a computer and knowing how to use some software? Digital crossover and filters with a great human interface (user friendliness) could be amazing, but I get the feeling programmable digital filters are a bit complicated for someone not up to speed on that.
As a user of computer-programmed filters, yes, there is indeed a learning curve. For home studio, you may again want to take a look at the Linkwitz LX Mini-studio. A well thought-out design that includes the digital filter configuration... Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
I second the notion about the Linkwitz LXMini. I haven't actually heard it, but I would expect it to compete well with the very best speakers out there.
I don't know if I would go with the Linkwitz "studio" open baffle woofer. I think a good active closed box woofer might go lower and thereby sound better. When I heard the Orion, I thought the mids and treble were some of the best I've ever heard, but the bass seemed weak below about 45 HZ. An open baffle woofer requires a huge amount of active EQ and drivers capable of huge amounts of cone displacement in order to have decent low bass. The Orion bass didn't impress me. A woofer that is acoustically flat down to 30HZ is IMO worth the trouble.
Bob,
With all due respect, Please give yourself another audition with a properly LinkwitzLab set up. The bass should floor you.
Jacq.
With all due respect, Please give yourself another audition with a properly LinkwitzLab set up. The bass should floor you.
Jacq.
Seems to me that DocNice wants a $5000 speaker for $2000! 😀
Well, we can do better than that IMO! Since you are American, you want something that blows the roof tiles off in a room the size of an aircraft hanger. 😎
Our own Adolf Corkscrew suggested an Eminence Coaxial solution. I think that is worth considering. These sort of speakers aren't the last word in measured smoothness, but they have guts and definition. 😎
So consider this WLM Diva. Now if my eyes don't deceive me, that is an Eminence Beta 10CX and an APT 50 MkII tweeter. And that's a VERY expensive speaker!
How hard can it be to get the Eminence crossover and wire that up in a box. Or use some other Eminence tweeter. It's gonna work. Eminence tell you everything you need to know. You get the gutsy PA sound without deep bass, but great dynamics and efficiency. It'll move your body. You'll just be dying to get it finished and plug it in! 🙂
Well, we can do better than that IMO! Since you are American, you want something that blows the roof tiles off in a room the size of an aircraft hanger. 😎
Our own Adolf Corkscrew suggested an Eminence Coaxial solution. I think that is worth considering. These sort of speakers aren't the last word in measured smoothness, but they have guts and definition. 😎
So consider this WLM Diva. Now if my eyes don't deceive me, that is an Eminence Beta 10CX and an APT 50 MkII tweeter. And that's a VERY expensive speaker!
How hard can it be to get the Eminence crossover and wire that up in a box. Or use some other Eminence tweeter. It's gonna work. Eminence tell you everything you need to know. You get the gutsy PA sound without deep bass, but great dynamics and efficiency. It'll move your body. You'll just be dying to get it finished and plug it in! 🙂
Attachments
The OP brought up such question, it's obvious there's already some motivation.
So, just go for it. Otherwise, the itch is always there. 😀
(what would you think/feel when the woodwork on the commercial product is not good enough as you can do better yourself? ... )
Once started, there're always gains. And of course, no pain, no gain. Fortunately, I guess the gain would be more than the pain. Maybe barely, but it's there. 😀
So, just go for it. Otherwise, the itch is always there. 😀
(what would you think/feel when the woodwork on the commercial product is not good enough as you can do better yourself? ... )
Once started, there're always gains. And of course, no pain, no gain. Fortunately, I guess the gain would be more than the pain. Maybe barely, but it's there. 😀
Dear DocNice,
Of course you must build!
Look what I built for USD800 (back in 2006; if memory is correct), only my second built, with no real woodworking hability:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/J_h51VtFWtnYvIgm1Ghbg9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
Unbeatable speakers if you have good corners separated at least by 5 meters.
The best option I think of now (and the way I'll go for my second system) is a two way speaker:
1) ESS AMT Heil tweeters: around USD$350 a pair, used, on eBay.
2) Acoustic Elegance TD15H 15" woofer: USD700 a pair.
AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
With or without the passive radiator used by ESS AMT.
Plus a Two way, second order filter, passive or active, crossed at 1Khz...
Good luck!
M.
Of course you must build!
Look what I built for USD800 (back in 2006; if memory is correct), only my second built, with no real woodworking hability:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/J_h51VtFWtnYvIgm1Ghbg9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
Unbeatable speakers if you have good corners separated at least by 5 meters.
The best option I think of now (and the way I'll go for my second system) is a two way speaker:
1) ESS AMT Heil tweeters: around USD$350 a pair, used, on eBay.
2) Acoustic Elegance TD15H 15" woofer: USD700 a pair.
AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
With or without the passive radiator used by ESS AMT.
Plus a Two way, second order filter, passive or active, crossed at 1Khz...
Good luck!
M.
I think the unstated question is whether you should DESIGN the speakers you build. For the first several, especially using expensive components, surely not. Deciding what drivers to use, cabinet volume, driver placement, where the crossover frequencies should be, zobels, how to handle differences in driver sensitivities, and other stuff all adds up to more than can be successfully conquered on a first speaker design. With a basic cabinet and crossover you can make a woofer woof and a tweeter tweet, but it'll sound bad next to any commercial mid-fi speaker.
Build one or more kits. Parts Express has many kits, some available as just drivers-and-crossover parts where you can build the cabinets from the given dimensions.
Get a few books on speaker building to learn what many of the design tradeoffs are. Weems has written several, though depending on edition the drivers listed for his designs are likely no longer available. Then there's the bible, the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook.
This is the Tarkus that was mentioned:
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
Build one or more kits. Parts Express has many kits, some available as just drivers-and-crossover parts where you can build the cabinets from the given dimensions.
Get a few books on speaker building to learn what many of the design tradeoffs are. Weems has written several, though depending on edition the drivers listed for his designs are likely no longer available. Then there's the bible, the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook.
This is the Tarkus that was mentioned:
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
Thanks for all the great advice everyone. Now time for me to ignore it!
The universal consensus seems to be that I should buy a kit or go from a plan. I may still do that. But consider that I have never built a single piece of furniture from plan. Or even cooked food straight from a recipe (I always have to alter it at least a bit, if not make it up on my own).
I think rather than try to spend 2 grand on components and be unhappy with them, I think I will spend a few hundred and see if I like doing this. If so, I can make my "dream" speakers after a practice run or two.
My reading list is:
Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System (Weems)
Introduction to Loudspeaker Design: Second Edition (Murphy)
Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual (TAB Electronics)
Master Handbook of Acoustics, Sixth Edition (Everest)
Current plan of attack (until I learn the right way)
1. Read the above (Already finished 1.5 of them)
2. Choose a basic outline of a design (e.g., closed/vented, active/passive xo, general size)
3. Choose appropriate drivers
4. Use SoundEasy to help design the box volume, anticipate crossover frequencies and determine crossover needs as well as other circuitry
5. Design the cabinet in Sketchup
6. Order drivers and crossovers
7. Build cabinet
8. Install drivers
9. Test speakers using my recording gear and SoundEasy
10. Make adjustments
11. Finish cabinet
I'm pretty sure I'm missing a test phase in there and I need to get way deep into acoustics and crossover theory. That said, from the comments I'm receiving, it seems like the two hardest parts of this are:
- Building the cabinet (if I struggle with this I'm just selling my table saw and calling myself a failure as a woodworker. I'm not a woodworking genius, but I have done hardr things that this)
- Getting the crossovers to work well. I'm hoping the software combined with some study of theory can get me over this hump.
The universal consensus seems to be that I should buy a kit or go from a plan. I may still do that. But consider that I have never built a single piece of furniture from plan. Or even cooked food straight from a recipe (I always have to alter it at least a bit, if not make it up on my own).
I think rather than try to spend 2 grand on components and be unhappy with them, I think I will spend a few hundred and see if I like doing this. If so, I can make my "dream" speakers after a practice run or two.
My reading list is:
Designing, Building, and Testing Your Own Speaker System (Weems)
Introduction to Loudspeaker Design: Second Edition (Murphy)
Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual (TAB Electronics)
Master Handbook of Acoustics, Sixth Edition (Everest)
Current plan of attack (until I learn the right way)
1. Read the above (Already finished 1.5 of them)
2. Choose a basic outline of a design (e.g., closed/vented, active/passive xo, general size)
3. Choose appropriate drivers
4. Use SoundEasy to help design the box volume, anticipate crossover frequencies and determine crossover needs as well as other circuitry
5. Design the cabinet in Sketchup
6. Order drivers and crossovers
7. Build cabinet
8. Install drivers
9. Test speakers using my recording gear and SoundEasy
10. Make adjustments
11. Finish cabinet
I'm pretty sure I'm missing a test phase in there and I need to get way deep into acoustics and crossover theory. That said, from the comments I'm receiving, it seems like the two hardest parts of this are:
- Building the cabinet (if I struggle with this I'm just selling my table saw and calling myself a failure as a woodworker. I'm not a woodworking genius, but I have done hardr things that this)
- Getting the crossovers to work well. I'm hoping the software combined with some study of theory can get me over this hump.
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If you want to design your own then starting with a low cost initial effort that you recognise is going to contain one or two things that are subsequently going to be found to be not quite right looks like a good plan to me. Some points:
- Soundeasy costs money. There is free software out there that does pretty much the same thing and may be a better place to start.
- Sketchup can be hard work. Recently released free online CAD software like onshape and the autocad equivalent may be a better choice.
- Reliable measurements require a calibrated measurement microphone. Recording microphones can get you something but it will need careful interpretation.
- If you have got recording equipment then you can develop your crossover approach actively for no cost by using plugins for the filters, delays,... and sending the channels via amplifiers to the relevant drivers. The equivalent passive crossover will be hard work, cost significant money and probably not perform as well but...
You seem to have the bug, which is great. I know books 1 and 4 and they are good stuff. Expect to redo 2,3,4 until you find what fits. Keep passive xovers out the speaker cabs if you are going to fiddle. I always think those who try to copy a commercial speaker are missing the point. Commercial means:
Fastest possible construction. Cut costs drivers and xovers are cheap but work through R+D. Shipping logistics, heavy fragile boxes, idiot customers, scammers, dodgy couriers etc. Must be fashionable, same as others, conventional parts. Marketing overheads etc.
When you DIY use good drivers with generous wide fr resp. Then you take some of the headache out of xovers because you have plenty of driver overlap. If you want to wait 2 weeks to cast glue in 3D, no problem. Think out the box. If you feel you need anything steeper than a 2nd order xover filter, then revise the design. You can combine different slopes eg an underdamped 2nd LP [like a 1st] and a sharp 2nd HP. A practical 1st order usually uses the same component count as a 2nd, so is pointless. Chipboard is ace.
Quote..
"I think rather than try to spend 2 grand on components and be unhappy with them, I think I will spend a few hundred and see if I like doing this. If so, I can make my "dream" speakers after a practice run or two." (Or, three or four or..)😉
Wise decision. I've built quite a few homebrew ideas myself and I'm still chicken to spend big bucks on drivers. I still can't see the huge difference between drivers to justify the cost..
Just have fun! That's what it's all about! Go cheap, impress yourself and then you'll catch the fever! Once you're "Infected", the wife wants to leave because there's no room to move around the house anymore because of "Experimenting" and the constant yearning to buy stuff on Ebay.. 🙂
Let the journey begin..
"I think rather than try to spend 2 grand on components and be unhappy with them, I think I will spend a few hundred and see if I like doing this. If so, I can make my "dream" speakers after a practice run or two." (Or, three or four or..)😉
Wise decision. I've built quite a few homebrew ideas myself and I'm still chicken to spend big bucks on drivers. I still can't see the huge difference between drivers to justify the cost..
Just have fun! That's what it's all about! Go cheap, impress yourself and then you'll catch the fever! Once you're "Infected", the wife wants to leave because there's no room to move around the house anymore because of "Experimenting" and the constant yearning to buy stuff on Ebay.. 🙂
Let the journey begin..
Maybe try making a really easy 2.1 system, then, as an entry-level project.
Sealed Sub: I list this first because it is almost impossible to stuff up a sealed sub, and because anyone into audio can find a use for an extra sub. Sealed means virtually no learning curve - just sling a driver or two into a solid box of roughly the right size, and add a small plate amp. You can simply focus on the woodwork aspect and get it looking excellent.
If you decide not to build any other speakers, you can always incorporate the sub into a regular, (non DIY) system, whereas if you decide to scale up, a spare sub is still useful - multiple subs are (always?) better than one.
Example sub: two Dayton Audio DC200-8 8" Classic Woofers in a 50 litre box. Use a small plate amp or maybe the Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier if you think the versatility could be handy.
Mains: something really easy-but-good to get started. If you later hunger for a more ambitious project, you can demote the small ones to use as surround speakers, or as premium desktop / PC speakers, or whatever.
Example: Visaton B 80 in a sealed 2 litre cabinet.
With this pairing, you're looking at about $200 in drivers. No crossover and no design skills are needed: the B 80 drivers will roll off at about 125Hz, so that's where you set the upper cutoff of the sub.
...and what you build should stay useful if/when you build a more sizable system.
Now you're on the right track, you can whip up a pair of these in a weekend. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-sr71-kit-pair-parts-only/
A little pricy, but the drivers are very nice.
Two other thoughts, please don't go to Best Buy for "store bought speakers" (cringe) and don't sell the table saw!! 😀
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