Due to my recent fiasco with "lent" working space and tools, i'm currently shopping for power tools in order to start again building as soon as possible.
So far i settled on:
I'd love feedback on these items. I can't really spend 600 euros on a good power router like my dad's Metabo so i'll settle for the Bosch which comes at 100 euros. If you can suggest other brands similarly priced and better built i'd love to hear about them.
To give you an idea of what kind of builds i want to venture in next:
Since there are some 30° cuts (the uFonken front panel comes to mind), i guess i will need some kind of Circular Saw? Not a table mounted one as i can't afford it.
Main cuts will be done at my local DIY shop that cuts any kind of plywood for free as long as they are square cuts. I will just have to assemble, glue, sand and finish.
My main question is this tho:
So far i used a Wolfcraft Universal Doweling Jig with mixed results. I can get *acceptable* (not good by far) results with exhausting effort , constantly double checking alignment and such.
I recently read about a different system called "biscuit joinery". I now know what it's about but since i've never used it and i've never seen it used, i wonder if it's suitable for cabinet building? Are the cabinets as solid as with flute dowels?. I'm worried about solidity, my FE167 BR enclosure survived falling from a table onto the floor with no structural problems. I like that kind of durability.
If it's a blatant improvement in effort and time spent, i'm willing to spend the extra euros to get a biscuit cutter instead of the aforementioned jig (which is not cheap anyway).
Any toughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
So far i settled on:
- Power Router: Bosch POF 1200 AE
- Orbital Sander: Bosch PSS 250 AE
- Electronic Screwdriver/Drill: Bosch PSR 9,6 (which would come free of charge as it's my dad's spare) OR
- PSB 500 RE - For the more demanding drill works, i already own the previous generation of this unit.
I'd love feedback on these items. I can't really spend 600 euros on a good power router like my dad's Metabo so i'll settle for the Bosch which comes at 100 euros. If you can suggest other brands similarly priced and better built i'd love to hear about them.
To give you an idea of what kind of builds i want to venture in next:
- Half-Chili Chang for Fostex FE167.
- µFonken for my FF85-WK.
Since there are some 30° cuts (the uFonken front panel comes to mind), i guess i will need some kind of Circular Saw? Not a table mounted one as i can't afford it.
Main cuts will be done at my local DIY shop that cuts any kind of plywood for free as long as they are square cuts. I will just have to assemble, glue, sand and finish.
My main question is this tho:
So far i used a Wolfcraft Universal Doweling Jig with mixed results. I can get *acceptable* (not good by far) results with exhausting effort , constantly double checking alignment and such.
I recently read about a different system called "biscuit joinery". I now know what it's about but since i've never used it and i've never seen it used, i wonder if it's suitable for cabinet building? Are the cabinets as solid as with flute dowels?. I'm worried about solidity, my FE167 BR enclosure survived falling from a table onto the floor with no structural problems. I like that kind of durability.
If it's a blatant improvement in effort and time spent, i'm willing to spend the extra euros to get a biscuit cutter instead of the aforementioned jig (which is not cheap anyway).
Any toughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
Karmic, I would look into a random orbital sander instead of the model your thinking of. For joining cabinet parts together I find a biscuit easier then a dowel. If you have accurate cuts on your plywood you will not have to worry about strength. That brings me to the saw. I don't feel that I could get good angled cuts with a hand held circular saw. My local building goods store will also cut sheet goods, but there is little accuracy or precision in there cuts. There must be a local Diyer who has equipment and would be willing to make a couple of cuts....
Biscuits by a wide margin IMO. Once you learn how to use them, they're much faster, not nearly as finicky about alignment and just as strong or stronger than dowels. More expensive though especially Lamello. My Porter Cable is nice and DeWalt is supposed to be good too.
6 of one
I used to like biscuits but with todays glue and a bit of blue masking tape I have not seen much point in going to the bother. But then I have collected a lot of clamps over the years.
What I have really enjoyed using is the Kreg pocket hole jig and the screws and clamps that come with the kit. There are other pocket hole jigs out there as well but the Kreg is so well made and reasonably priced that I have stayed with it.
If my boxes were going to double as engine stands then I might consider investing in a biscuit joiner. But with a little planning all the pocket holes can be made in the inside of the box. The holes can be filled with wood dowels but I like Bondo auto body epoxy. If you need to make a pocket hole that will show then it is easy to match wood or use contrasting wood to plug the hole and it is invisible or stylish contrast, your choice.
I used to like biscuits but with todays glue and a bit of blue masking tape I have not seen much point in going to the bother. But then I have collected a lot of clamps over the years.
What I have really enjoyed using is the Kreg pocket hole jig and the screws and clamps that come with the kit. There are other pocket hole jigs out there as well but the Kreg is so well made and reasonably priced that I have stayed with it.
If my boxes were going to double as engine stands then I might consider investing in a biscuit joiner. But with a little planning all the pocket holes can be made in the inside of the box. The holes can be filled with wood dowels but I like Bondo auto body epoxy. If you need to make a pocket hole that will show then it is easy to match wood or use contrasting wood to plug the hole and it is invisible or stylish contrast, your choice.
Seems like overkill. Butt joints with modern glues like Titebond III using clamps will be nearly indestructible. You need clamps anyway. For 30 degree cuts just use the router with an appropriate angled bit and a guide fence.
The biscuits will allow you to align things a bit, while you tighten your clamps.
Most woodworking experts seem to agree that dowels (and Biscuits) are primarily alignment aids and don't add any appreciable strength to the joint, which is the job of the glue. Modern glues, when used correctly, are stronger than the wood itself
Best Regards,
TerryO
Most woodworking experts seem to agree that dowels (and Biscuits) are primarily alignment aids and don't add any appreciable strength to the joint, which is the job of the glue. Modern glues, when used correctly, are stronger than the wood itself
Best Regards,
TerryO
I love my Makita Biscuit Joiner and my DeWalt Router. It's like air-conditioning. Once you have it, you can't do without it. Same for the table saw. It'll make building your speakers more enjoyable.
one more voice to the chorus in favor of biscuits - that is it to say in a choice between the two - but I think you'd be better off with a decent 1.5HP router - with a few decent bits, straight-edges and clamps you could accomplish a much wider range of joinery than the rather restricted scope of the biscuit or dowel joiner
I have a Porter Cable biscuit joiner, and could go probably 6 months without touching it, but my routers ( actually 3 including the lighter duty laminate trimmers) and RO sander will get used almost every day I'm in the shop.
I have a Porter Cable biscuit joiner, and could go probably 6 months without touching it, but my routers ( actually 3 including the lighter duty laminate trimmers) and RO sander will get used almost every day I'm in the shop.
Wow, many replies. Lots of fantastic ideas here.
A Random Orbital Sander looks good too, but i have one doubt: Can you use it with normal rolls of sand paper? Because my experience is that pre-cut velcro backed sand paper is expensive and comes in pointless grits. I want to use good quality sand paper and in the grits i decide.
This seems the general feeling of the "pros". I'm a clumsy noobie tho so i gotta find something to compensate me being a clutz. I do love clamps tho and i plan to get loads 😛.
That's what i thought too but you never know. Italian DIYers seem to like this glue: Saratoga Axe Master - Polyurethane adhesive, fast-acting, for wood constructions, with exceptional resistance to water (classified D4).
Currently googling the Titebond III and see if i can source it in Italy.
I think i still need alignment aids.
I really don't have the space nor the money for a table saw :/
If you were not a professional, but someone that plans to go through a couple of builds a year, in a tight place, how much would you spend in a router? I can go the extra-mile for the router as i realize it's one of the most important tools in a shop, but my budget is 150€ tops for it.
Isn't it a bitch to align? 😛
A Random Orbital Sander looks good too, but i have one doubt: Can you use it with normal rolls of sand paper? Because my experience is that pre-cut velcro backed sand paper is expensive and comes in pointless grits. I want to use good quality sand paper and in the grits i decide.
This seems the general feeling of the "pros". I'm a clumsy noobie tho so i gotta find something to compensate me being a clutz. I do love clamps tho and i plan to get loads 😛.
That's what i thought too but you never know. Italian DIYers seem to like this glue: Saratoga Axe Master - Polyurethane adhesive, fast-acting, for wood constructions, with exceptional resistance to water (classified D4).
Currently googling the Titebond III and see if i can source it in Italy.
I think i still need alignment aids.
I really don't have the space nor the money for a table saw :/
If you were not a professional, but someone that plans to go through a couple of builds a year, in a tight place, how much would you spend in a router? I can go the extra-mile for the router as i realize it's one of the most important tools in a shop, but my budget is 150€ tops for it.
I'd take a lock mitre router bit over either...
Isn't it a bitch to align? 😛
No you use a router table, the guard seets the width and prevents the wood from moveing, the router is preset to the right depth and you just push the plank through, 5 second job, can't miss. Plus it would seal far better than any of the other methods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbJszKqyfBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbJszKqyfBA
You can cut biscuit slots with a router and a special bit but you have to build a jig. Like Brucegseidner said pocket screws are a good alternative. What's nice about them is you don't need a bunch of clamps but they're tricky to use in tight spaces Good and strong. Check out this thread in the construction forum. Butt joints,wood glue strong enough?
Lots of good advice above- just adding a few thoughts from my own experiences. I own a lot of tools and have built (in addition to a few speaker cabinets) boats and guitars, furniture, etc.
Biscuit joiner is far far easier to use than a dowel jig. Much more forgiving of slight errors in alignment.
Plywood and MDF butt joints are stronger with biscuits, if you are gluing sawn (not jointed) surfaces with non-gap-filling glues. If using epoxy glue, butt joints can be strong.
Biscuits work best with water-based glues which swell the biscuits- not so well with urethanes or epoxies.
I have a Ryobi biscuit joiner and a Bosch- both work fine.
I've used a router jig for biscuits - complete PITA, IMO. Spend a few extra $$ for a dedicated biscuit joiner.
If you have room for a router table (for using a fence and angled or lock-miter bit) you have room for a small (aka portable or bench-top) table saw. Try to find a table saw that has a tight blade insert (or will allow you to add a home-built one) if possible.
If you are just using the router for cutting a few speaker holes and rounding a few edges, you can probably get away with using a laminate trimmer, and light cuts. Next step up would be a 1/4" plunge router, then a 1/2" plunge/fixed router combo. The big (heavy) 2+HP routers are too awkward and heavy for my taste. EDIT- The Bosch 1200 plunge router page finally loaded here- looks like a good choice, IMO.
Remember that router bits will probably be at least 50% of the router cost, probably more if you end up needing guide collars and other accessories. You can make your own circle-cutting jig if you are 'handy', but you will need some way of cutting wood or plastic.
You can do a lot with hand tools, but you need a good bench.
If you are building 'in the house' add a good shop-vac to your list.
As suggested above, finding a friend with a good wood shop would be worth a lot! Even if it takes some bottles (many) of wine or donations of new router bits or a saw-blade.....
John
Biscuit joiner is far far easier to use than a dowel jig. Much more forgiving of slight errors in alignment.
Plywood and MDF butt joints are stronger with biscuits, if you are gluing sawn (not jointed) surfaces with non-gap-filling glues. If using epoxy glue, butt joints can be strong.
Biscuits work best with water-based glues which swell the biscuits- not so well with urethanes or epoxies.
I have a Ryobi biscuit joiner and a Bosch- both work fine.
I've used a router jig for biscuits - complete PITA, IMO. Spend a few extra $$ for a dedicated biscuit joiner.
If you have room for a router table (for using a fence and angled or lock-miter bit) you have room for a small (aka portable or bench-top) table saw. Try to find a table saw that has a tight blade insert (or will allow you to add a home-built one) if possible.
If you are just using the router for cutting a few speaker holes and rounding a few edges, you can probably get away with using a laminate trimmer, and light cuts. Next step up would be a 1/4" plunge router, then a 1/2" plunge/fixed router combo. The big (heavy) 2+HP routers are too awkward and heavy for my taste. EDIT- The Bosch 1200 plunge router page finally loaded here- looks like a good choice, IMO.
Remember that router bits will probably be at least 50% of the router cost, probably more if you end up needing guide collars and other accessories. You can make your own circle-cutting jig if you are 'handy', but you will need some way of cutting wood or plastic.
You can do a lot with hand tools, but you need a good bench.
If you are building 'in the house' add a good shop-vac to your list.
As suggested above, finding a friend with a good wood shop would be worth a lot! Even if it takes some bottles (many) of wine or donations of new router bits or a saw-blade.....
John
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The lock mitre joint is self aligning, IOW: it's a "snap".
If you're concerned over alignment of the bits prior to use; then yes, it does take some care but it provides increased glue area (extra strength) and it also eliminates "edge grain' of whatever material you're using. It makes finishing, at least a painted finish, a lot easier, faster and may help to end up with better results.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I'll quickly add a placeholder here. I don't have time for replying like you wonderful people deserve to. This is a FANTASTIC thread in my opinion and i have a few comment but i'm in the middle of relocating to the south of the country. I'll edit this post or add a new one tomorrow or very late tonight, thanks for now!
Another vote for a biscuit joiner (I have a Porter Cable). I don't have a jointer or planer but do have good quality power tools (primarily Festool) and a table saw (General 650) and I find the biscuits help align pieces and add strength.
The lock miter joint was used by Terry Cain in his professional cabinets for speakers made in his furniture shop. Lots of glue line on these (which is the point) but for a small build like fonkens etc. probably an extra expense.
The discussion of the angled front on the fonkens once suggested simply going to the local kitchen cabinet maker and have them use their sliding table table saw with a 12 in blade. Keep in mind that the angled cut needs a lot of bite which the usual small blades have a hard time coping with.
I use butt joints because I'm reusing the same lumber often on newer designs. One difference: I use tub caulk at the joints. Everyone winces at this but the joints are strong and can be knocked apart without a lot of tear out. Think of rubber cement with extra grip. Keep in mind this is how I do it as an amateur.
The discussion of the angled front on the fonkens once suggested simply going to the local kitchen cabinet maker and have them use their sliding table table saw with a 12 in blade. Keep in mind that the angled cut needs a lot of bite which the usual small blades have a hard time coping with.
I use butt joints because I'm reusing the same lumber often on newer designs. One difference: I use tub caulk at the joints. Everyone winces at this but the joints are strong and can be knocked apart without a lot of tear out. Think of rubber cement with extra grip. Keep in mind this is how I do it as an amateur.
no Kreg tool?
If u r using 3/4" plywood, Kreg tool is very helpful to minimize clamping for cabinet construction. For thinner 1/2" it is not reliable in my hands but I am an amateur in woodworking.
Frankly for me I use Kreg tool more than a orbital sander, prefer to use manual sanding...
Here is the one I use. http://www.amazon.com/Kreg-MKJKIT-M...f=sr_1_16?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1315255797&sr=1-16 Kreg vise grips make things go pretty fast.
gychang
If u r using 3/4" plywood, Kreg tool is very helpful to minimize clamping for cabinet construction. For thinner 1/2" it is not reliable in my hands but I am an amateur in woodworking.
Frankly for me I use Kreg tool more than a orbital sander, prefer to use manual sanding...
Here is the one I use. http://www.amazon.com/Kreg-MKJKIT-M...f=sr_1_16?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1315255797&sr=1-16 Kreg vise grips make things go pretty fast.
gychang
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The biscuit joiner is far superior to the dowel. It gives play on one axis and alignment on the other. That allows room for expansion if you use real wood. I used biscuits on a breadboard edge of a table that spent a few days under water. They held quite nicely.
Instead of a table saw on small pieces of wood you can trim them very precisely with a router table. It also allows precise rebate cuts that insure the work assembles truly square. If you use real wood a planer or stationary sander are very useful.
The lock miter joint used to be standard on pro loudspeakers, but improvements in glue especially setting time have made that process go away. I did get the tooling to do lock miter joints from JBL when they closed their first custom shop.
Instead of a table saw on small pieces of wood you can trim them very precisely with a router table. It also allows precise rebate cuts that insure the work assembles truly square. If you use real wood a planer or stationary sander are very useful.
The lock miter joint used to be standard on pro loudspeakers, but improvements in glue especially setting time have made that process go away. I did get the tooling to do lock miter joints from JBL when they closed their first custom shop.
I like this idea , althought i don't understand how you use mitre joints on 2 axis. For example, if you join a side and a front panel with them, how do you use it to join those two with a top panel? i don't see how routing from two sides of the corner can overlap.
Lots of great advice john, thank you very much. I don't have room for a table saw. I think i may look into this: Wolfcraft Master Cut 1000. I know it's a cheapish table and i already am familiar with the overall (mediocre) build quality of Wolfcraft products. But this is the best i can come up with on my budget.
From the looks of it, a lock mitre joint is a fantastic choice if you have a router table. I very likely won't, or if i will it will be the cheapish wolfcraft one i linked above 😛
I work with plywood more often than not. The uFonken requires only a 30° cut on the side, i think routing it with a plunge router is the cheapest option. The "bite" is not as big as a full-size fonken. (We're talking a 20 cms tall speaker here)
This is something that doesn't add up in my minuscule experience. I thought screws were a big no-no? Why are pocket-hole screws ok then? Do you remove them after gluing?
I think these last posts put the proverbial nail in the coffin about biscuit joiners. When i will have a budget that allows that, i will buy a proper router table but for the time being i will do my joinery buying a 50€ dedicated biscuit joiner, maybe a little more.
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