cdsgames, yes that's the one, Topping D50s.
You are coming to conclusions too soon. I too have an experience of 4 decades in audio. Have done consultancy and auditions for big brands like EV, Cadence and others. Having built some hundreds of amps, preamps, speaker systems, cables and acoustics, I have learnt to preempt sound characteristics better by looking at graphs.
A simple fact you should not ignore while looking at the measurements you have linked for the D50s is that overall it is H2 dominant. H2 is down at -120db relative to fundamental. So that should tell you that the sound will be clean and not coloured. It will be ever so slightly warmer because H2 is higher than H3 by more than 10db. I am aware that 7th to 11th odd harmonics play a great role. But H5 is down 5db and H7 8db compared to H2.
Hence being, down -125db and below, these harmonics are not going to influence the fundamental too much, as you suppose.
In conclusion what you end up hearing is a very clean but not sterile sound with a tinge of warmth. Resolution, Attack, Decay, Rhythm, Macro and Micro Dynamics is second to none. Perhaps, DACs which cost above $1k, will surpass it's performance
But the returns are miniscule. If one can afford, then there is no objection.
Charts don't tell you a thing about sound stage width, depth or height. Channel cross talk being so high for the D50s should indicate that channel cross talk is not an issue. Very high Signal to Noise ratio and Dynamic range should indicate to you the rest of the story.
Shielding the Pi for EMI and RFI ingress enhances it's performance by miles. This is also where direct attached HATs lose out.
In my listening tests, it was a no contest between D50s and Boss2 player. There was no sound stage width or depth with the latter. Forget about resolving the height of the sound stage, which is a lot harder in any system.
Yes, it's also system synergy. But being the builder of all my amps, I carried out tests with one of my favourite amps. It's only the output stage of Nelson Pass' M2 directly driven from DAC. There's not even a hardware volume control between DAC and Amp. Interconnects are constructed from scratch by me. So I know the characteristics. An evaluation test can hardly be surpassed than what I used. If it were not for the pandemic, I would have gladly invited your team here in Bangalore for their own evaluation. Let's hope that time does arrive sooner.
I give it to the Allo team for the Shanti Linear Power Supply. When I had a look inside, I knew that it would take a lot of designing, building many iterations and listening tests to go beyond what the dual supply, stock Shanti offers.
You are coming to conclusions too soon. I too have an experience of 4 decades in audio. Have done consultancy and auditions for big brands like EV, Cadence and others. Having built some hundreds of amps, preamps, speaker systems, cables and acoustics, I have learnt to preempt sound characteristics better by looking at graphs.
A simple fact you should not ignore while looking at the measurements you have linked for the D50s is that overall it is H2 dominant. H2 is down at -120db relative to fundamental. So that should tell you that the sound will be clean and not coloured. It will be ever so slightly warmer because H2 is higher than H3 by more than 10db. I am aware that 7th to 11th odd harmonics play a great role. But H5 is down 5db and H7 8db compared to H2.
Hence being, down -125db and below, these harmonics are not going to influence the fundamental too much, as you suppose.
In conclusion what you end up hearing is a very clean but not sterile sound with a tinge of warmth. Resolution, Attack, Decay, Rhythm, Macro and Micro Dynamics is second to none. Perhaps, DACs which cost above $1k, will surpass it's performance
But the returns are miniscule. If one can afford, then there is no objection.
Charts don't tell you a thing about sound stage width, depth or height. Channel cross talk being so high for the D50s should indicate that channel cross talk is not an issue. Very high Signal to Noise ratio and Dynamic range should indicate to you the rest of the story.
Shielding the Pi for EMI and RFI ingress enhances it's performance by miles. This is also where direct attached HATs lose out.
In my listening tests, it was a no contest between D50s and Boss2 player. There was no sound stage width or depth with the latter. Forget about resolving the height of the sound stage, which is a lot harder in any system.
Yes, it's also system synergy. But being the builder of all my amps, I carried out tests with one of my favourite amps. It's only the output stage of Nelson Pass' M2 directly driven from DAC. There's not even a hardware volume control between DAC and Amp. Interconnects are constructed from scratch by me. So I know the characteristics. An evaluation test can hardly be surpassed than what I used. If it were not for the pandemic, I would have gladly invited your team here in Bangalore for their own evaluation. Let's hope that time does arrive sooner.
I give it to the Allo team for the Shanti Linear Power Supply. When I had a look inside, I knew that it would take a lot of designing, building many iterations and listening tests to go beyond what the dual supply, stock Shanti offers.
HPA-1 won a few product of the year awards, its still the main reference HPA Stereophile uses for evaluating headphones. Some Pass customers have complained that it sounds better than Pass Labs best power amps, and at a small fraction of the cost. Some people use it as line amp, because it sounds better than any other they have found. M2 simply is not in the same class.
Mark, I agree with your comments. But they are different animals. You can't drive speakers with a dedicated headphone amp or vice versa, without it's attendant issues.
Now to put it in perspective. HPA1 is a complete amplifier with a Cascoded Complementary JFET Front End, VAS stage, MOSFET Output Stage, Opamp based Servo and probably stage wise power filtering. It is probably H2 dominant, negative phase. I don't know for sure. It's output stage has plenty of drive for Headphones and Line duty.
Commercial and Diy M2s are different in that there is a Buffer Front End, Line Transformer Gainstage and Mosfet PP output stage.
Hence, each topology and gain stages will have it's own influence on sound characteristics.
On the other hand, what I am using is only the Output stage of the M2. It has no voltage gain. So it will easily reveal the full character of the preceding stage. In my case, the two Days I compared.
P. S. I also have ACA, F7 clone, SissySIT with Mosfets, H2 from the Pass stable to compare. So I hope, I have explained my setup and evaluation better now.
Now to put it in perspective. HPA1 is a complete amplifier with a Cascoded Complementary JFET Front End, VAS stage, MOSFET Output Stage, Opamp based Servo and probably stage wise power filtering. It is probably H2 dominant, negative phase. I don't know for sure. It's output stage has plenty of drive for Headphones and Line duty.
Commercial and Diy M2s are different in that there is a Buffer Front End, Line Transformer Gainstage and Mosfet PP output stage.
Hence, each topology and gain stages will have it's own influence on sound characteristics.
On the other hand, what I am using is only the Output stage of the M2. It has no voltage gain. So it will easily reveal the full character of the preceding stage. In my case, the two Days I compared.
P. S. I also have ACA, F7 clone, SissySIT with Mosfets, H2 from the Pass stable to compare. So I hope, I have explained my setup and evaluation better now.
You are not a Topping employee, right?
Jokes aside I had the D50 (first version non s) with a decent power supply and it wasn't anything special. Topping D70.. nothing special also actually pretty bad (ymho) .
The Allo Revolution that I have now is 2 classes above both.
If Topping improved the little dac that much in the new version... Bravo!
I would be curious to hear it now.
My Revolution is powered by Nirvana - now I'm wondering if Shanti (or better) could actually further lift its performance
Jokes aside. I am not a Topping employee. I too researched sufficiently to understand that the "s" version is vastly improved.
Revolution is a different DAC compared to Boss2, you would agree. I haven't heard one, but.... A peek into the rest of your system will help get a better perspective. Thanks.
Revolution is a different DAC compared to Boss2, you would agree. I haven't heard one, but.... A peek into the rest of your system will help get a better perspective. Thanks.
I had a quick look at the THD spectra of Revolution DAC. I was very surprised to see that it is Odd Harmonics dominant. Ok, below -130db, but it's H3 and every odd harmonic upto H9 which is visible. So using your own yardstick, can we say that the Rev is bright?
After all these years of pursuit of audio grail, I would have strived to get a bit of H2 in there at -125db or thereabouts.
Why not take a challenge. You can easily assemble Nelson's H2 board and insert it after your Revolution DAC, just to get a taste. This circuit inverts phase, so swap at the speaker cable end to get Absolute phase back and hear negative phase H2.
Alternately, you can get Shaan's Pee Cee Bee preamp for adjustable H2 or even NuTube Korg.
It's not about H2. But about balancing voicing and adding a bit of euphonic warmth in the reproduction chain.
My brother owns a PA rental company. An art which I taught him quite early in life. So having been at mixing desks from the days of analogue and spring based reverbs to BBDs, to Audio Note Valve amps, and now playing with SITs (TH-51S Tokins), I have learnt a thing or two.
It's not bragging rights either, but just a technical challenge to taste (hear) and see (know).
Not to deride Douglas Self, but none of his Blameless amps were really praised for sound quality though they were THD champs. Yet Dean Hugh and Nelson Pass designs are praised for sound quality, musicality, immediacy etc. though the gear don't measure well. Why reinvent the wheel. I want to follow the footsteps of giants, without losing creativity and originality. Wish Allo could take some inputs, by having more auditioning from the discerning public during development and trial phase.
After all these years of pursuit of audio grail, I would have strived to get a bit of H2 in there at -125db or thereabouts.
Why not take a challenge. You can easily assemble Nelson's H2 board and insert it after your Revolution DAC, just to get a taste. This circuit inverts phase, so swap at the speaker cable end to get Absolute phase back and hear negative phase H2.
Alternately, you can get Shaan's Pee Cee Bee preamp for adjustable H2 or even NuTube Korg.
It's not about H2. But about balancing voicing and adding a bit of euphonic warmth in the reproduction chain.
My brother owns a PA rental company. An art which I taught him quite early in life. So having been at mixing desks from the days of analogue and spring based reverbs to BBDs, to Audio Note Valve amps, and now playing with SITs (TH-51S Tokins), I have learnt a thing or two.
It's not bragging rights either, but just a technical challenge to taste (hear) and see (know).
Not to deride Douglas Self, but none of his Blameless amps were really praised for sound quality though they were THD champs. Yet Dean Hugh and Nelson Pass designs are praised for sound quality, musicality, immediacy etc. though the gear don't measure well. Why reinvent the wheel. I want to follow the footsteps of giants, without losing creativity and originality. Wish Allo could take some inputs, by having more auditioning from the discerning public during development and trial phase.
Jay
I always have respect for people with experience . In the audio world we deal constantly with people that think they know the absolute truth about SQ (that's basically subjective ), to me you are one example .
While I do not have you decades of experience in audio , we do have multiple DAC designs and some of them (Katana) that had both THD+N stages and SQ stage . From an experience point of view , we were confident enough...to design for it .
You talk about dominant H , sorry to correct you but that's almost irrelevant , what matters is not to have H after the 3. I few people here know what I am talking about and d50s gets an F in my book .
Now you talk about euphonics , maybe that's why Revolution and Boss2 are picture perfect examples (rev dac can change H2/h3 level) of what it means . Boss2 especially (on 1.7Vrms even more) . I also see that d50s gets another F (since H9 and H11 are almost the same level of H2)
I do agree that d50s mono mode might have better stage. They get an A.
You talk about RFI from RPI...of course you don't know that we have used 3 ground planes and earth connection , in addition to at least 100 test to make sure there is none . You also don't know that i2s and i2c signals are buffered by Schmidt triggers buffers (with dedicated LDOs) to remove any RFI noise reaching the DAC ic .
Frankly speaking , if my team will show me measurements of d50s(on our dac) , I will redo the board . To me its rather bad .
My first guess is that your speakers have excellent crossovers (check d50s measurements with 90Khz bandwith) that remove all that hi frequency noise.My second guess is that you never measured any of your hardware . My last guess ... if you do measure ...you will have some big surprises .
d50s is not better than Boss2. D50s is , at best , a mediocre DAC. You might like it but its still ...meh . Is Boss2 the best dac in the world ? No but its a very good value.
One last thing , a few messages before you were saying that Shanti cables are not even good for 1A. Once you opened the unit up your opinion changed . To me it looks like you are making assumptions . Do not judge a book by its cover ( or Boss2 / shanti PSU ).
Enjoy your d50s and Shanti .
I always have respect for people with experience . In the audio world we deal constantly with people that think they know the absolute truth about SQ (that's basically subjective ), to me you are one example .
While I do not have you decades of experience in audio , we do have multiple DAC designs and some of them (Katana) that had both THD+N stages and SQ stage . From an experience point of view , we were confident enough...to design for it .
You talk about dominant H , sorry to correct you but that's almost irrelevant , what matters is not to have H after the 3. I few people here know what I am talking about and d50s gets an F in my book .
Now you talk about euphonics , maybe that's why Revolution and Boss2 are picture perfect examples (rev dac can change H2/h3 level) of what it means . Boss2 especially (on 1.7Vrms even more) . I also see that d50s gets another F (since H9 and H11 are almost the same level of H2)
I do agree that d50s mono mode might have better stage. They get an A.
You talk about RFI from RPI...of course you don't know that we have used 3 ground planes and earth connection , in addition to at least 100 test to make sure there is none . You also don't know that i2s and i2c signals are buffered by Schmidt triggers buffers (with dedicated LDOs) to remove any RFI noise reaching the DAC ic .
Frankly speaking , if my team will show me measurements of d50s(on our dac) , I will redo the board . To me its rather bad .
My first guess is that your speakers have excellent crossovers (check d50s measurements with 90Khz bandwith) that remove all that hi frequency noise.My second guess is that you never measured any of your hardware . My last guess ... if you do measure ...you will have some big surprises .
d50s is not better than Boss2. D50s is , at best , a mediocre DAC. You might like it but its still ...meh . Is Boss2 the best dac in the world ? No but its a very good value.
One last thing , a few messages before you were saying that Shanti cables are not even good for 1A. Once you opened the unit up your opinion changed . To me it looks like you are making assumptions . Do not judge a book by its cover ( or Boss2 / shanti PSU ).
Enjoy your d50s and Shanti .
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I know Revolution is not Boss2 and I expect it to be (much?) better.. as it is 3x price. I brought it into discussion because you said that d50s is the best < 1k $ dac. That is one thing I just don't think is true. There are many dacs today in the sub 1000$ range and digital audio improved A LOT in the last years - difficult to believe you won't find something there to like even better
Is Revolution one of them? Don't know, maybe/maybe not. All I know is that I like it very much and for the moment
I'm not interested in another source. I must admit that I'm thinking for a while about an akm4499 based dac but for the moment only Topping has one at a decent price and after the personal disappointment of Topping D70 I just didn't feel like buying it. Maybe Topping learned how to make good dacs and I made a bad decision I don't have an expensive rig but it's not bad either:
- pc+wtfplay -> revolution -> Shure KSE1200
Ceausuc
Ak4499 is a great DAC ic. H2 , H3 and nothing else point to great SQ. Indeed to me it sounded very good.. I know that Mark is trying to make it sound even better.
However , to me its an (almost) dead end . Yes we can squeeze more SQ from this generation of ICs....but by small increments .
I believe (and design now the next gen Dac) that in order to further the SQ we need to look at the biggest issues and correct them . Room and speakers
My next design will feature a powerful DSP.
Ak4499 is a great DAC ic. H2 , H3 and nothing else point to great SQ. Indeed to me it sounded very good.. I know that Mark is trying to make it sound even better.
However , to me its an (almost) dead end . Yes we can squeeze more SQ from this generation of ICs....but by small increments .
I believe (and design now the next gen Dac) that in order to further the SQ we need to look at the biggest issues and correct them . Room and speakers
My next design will feature a powerful DSP.
Ah, the things I could tell you about rooms and speakers....DSP can only do so much.
Also, since AK4499 is not in currently in production and its not clear if it will ever come back, I am starting to experiment with Rohm's new BD34301EKV dac chip. Have the eval board. Too soon to say much about the sound, but it may have some promise.
@ceausuc,
Topping D90 (with AK4499) is a great value for the price, especially in direct DSD256 mode. However, there are audible flaws; some people don't notice, know one guy who did notice and returned his unit for that reason. First the good stuff: bass is great, sound stage is very wide, wider than the speaker positions on a good system. The bad is that as frequency goes up, SQ starts to suffer slightly; unfortunately it starts to show some imperfection at vocal frequencies and above. That's not a problem with the dac chip as much as it is with the board implementation.
Also, since AK4499 is not in currently in production and its not clear if it will ever come back, I am starting to experiment with Rohm's new BD34301EKV dac chip. Have the eval board. Too soon to say much about the sound, but it may have some promise.
@ceausuc,
Topping D90 (with AK4499) is a great value for the price, especially in direct DSD256 mode. However, there are audible flaws; some people don't notice, know one guy who did notice and returned his unit for that reason. First the good stuff: bass is great, sound stage is very wide, wider than the speaker positions on a good system. The bad is that as frequency goes up, SQ starts to suffer slightly; unfortunately it starts to show some imperfection at vocal frequencies and above. That's not a problem with the dac chip as much as it is with the board implementation.
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One thing for sure.
Audio Precision measurement gear - being used by the vast majority of audio device designers - alone, is simply not reflecting the full scope of sound reproduction.
Because real music load is a different animal than just feeding test signals.
And that's been said by Audio Precision btw! That's not me saying it.
Instead of running after the next great thing, I'd say, we first need to learn what's actually
wrong with all these devices. Why do all these devices still sound pretty different despite their great specs!
Simply squeezing out another db on SNR or THD simply won't be of any use for anybody but the marketing department.
No. I am not looking forward to a DSP based DAC.
Audio Precision measurement gear - being used by the vast majority of audio device designers - alone, is simply not reflecting the full scope of sound reproduction.
Because real music load is a different animal than just feeding test signals.
And that's been said by Audio Precision btw! That's not me saying it.
Instead of running after the next great thing, I'd say, we first need to learn what's actually
wrong with all these devices. Why do all these devices still sound pretty different despite their great specs!
Simply squeezing out another db on SNR or THD simply won't be of any use for anybody but the marketing department.
No. I am not looking forward to a DSP based DAC.
You need to find the stuff that "really matters".
On 9 out of 10 reviews of modern DACs I read, "better dynamics" "wider and deeper stage" "better separation", despite showing basically all standard specs beyond audible thresholds.
As soon as there's a proper explanation on the table, we'll find that being addressed.
Just adding a supercap at whatever position might not help with that.
And that's IMO also the reason why a D50 very well can sound better on certain aspects.
Enjoy.
On 9 out of 10 reviews of modern DACs I read, "better dynamics" "wider and deeper stage" "better separation", despite showing basically all standard specs beyond audible thresholds.
As soon as there's a proper explanation on the table, we'll find that being addressed.
Just adding a supercap at whatever position might not help with that.
And that's IMO also the reason why a D50 very well can sound better on certain aspects.
Enjoy.