<1Vpp is <30mW into 8r0.
Seems like your avearge level was of the order of 1mW to 10mW. Probably <70dB @ 1m per speaker
Seems like your avearge level was of the order of 1mW to 10mW. Probably <70dB @ 1m per speaker
if kanye west is that one of american boy i must say that the an super 8" where doing a great job, it seemed like most of the bass wow effect energy had been mastered in the 200-400hz region
Is there any consensus on how much head room is necessary for most types of music? I'd imagine 2.5 wpc would more than cover it.
I'm really looking forward to hearing what the A166 sounds like when connected to the K-12g. Currently I'm running double Large Advents to a Phase Linear 400, so it should be a night and day difference. Sort of like comparing a tiny high performance sports car to a 30 year old bulldozer.
I'm really looking forward to hearing what the A166 sounds like when connected to the K-12g. Currently I'm running double Large Advents to a Phase Linear 400, so it should be a night and day difference. Sort of like comparing a tiny high performance sports car to a 30 year old bulldozer.
If you're a headbanger and prepared to tolerate the typical distortions of a disco that has insufficient headroom then aimfor ~10dB.
If you use normal music at normal levels then try for 20dB of headroom.
If you listen to high quality sources that are capable of good dynamic range then ~30dB may be necessary.
Assume your average level for quiet and background music is between 60 and 70Db SPL at your listening position.
If your like it to be more lifelike then th average could be ~80dB SPL at the listening position.
If 20mW/ch is quiet then an average of 200mW/ch is lifelike and headroom of 30dB will require 200W/ch.
If you are prepared to listen with just 20dB of headroom then 20W/ch is necessary to meet the references of 20mW & 200mW.
If you use normal music at normal levels then try for 20dB of headroom.
If you listen to high quality sources that are capable of good dynamic range then ~30dB may be necessary.
Assume your average level for quiet and background music is between 60 and 70Db SPL at your listening position.
If your like it to be more lifelike then th average could be ~80dB SPL at the listening position.
If 20mW/ch is quiet then an average of 200mW/ch is lifelike and headroom of 30dB will require 200W/ch.
If you are prepared to listen with just 20dB of headroom then 20W/ch is necessary to meet the references of 20mW & 200mW.
that's the beauty of these little SE thingies. Even when they clip, it is harmonic and you won't notice it... another way of saying that 2.5W/ch coming out of which amplifier (topology) and driving what speakers is important.
I agree with AndrewT on the listenning levels, but I find 2.5W into full range drivers is enough to make my hair stand on ends.
ofcourse, 200W of class A will be better, but then it costs $$$$
I agree with AndrewT on the listenning levels, but I find 2.5W into full range drivers is enough to make my hair stand on ends.
ofcourse, 200W of class A will be better, but then it costs $$$$
I recently attended a symphony orchestra and was reading on tnt-audio that the peaks in such a performance can be more than 30 db over average program levels.
Geoff Husband makes the point (tnt-audio), that if you actually are able to recreate such peaks would you still like to stay in the same room? Imagine a grand piano striking that bottom note with full power. If you reproduce that realistically, you better have something like a big concert hall as your living room.
Geoff Husband makes the point (tnt-audio), that if you actually are able to recreate such peaks would you still like to stay in the same room? Imagine a grand piano striking that bottom note with full power. If you reproduce that realistically, you better have something like a big concert hall as your living room.
This is beyond my knowledge blue lander. All i know is that the sonic signature depends on the amplifier topology. I know my dad's EL84 push-pull has second harmonic clipping. Most probably yours does too. Odd orders are fine as long as they are low in number ie. 3rd or 5th. Higher orders are known to be objectionable and more easily discernible.
Anyway, I think i should shut up and let some of the more knowledgeable members reply to your questions.
Anyway, I think i should shut up and let some of the more knowledgeable members reply to your questions.
One point to remember is that FR drivers themselves don't have a whole lot of LF dynamic BW. All other things being equal, the more clean power you can provide a speaker the better so you're minimising the risk of the amp running out of headroom & the speaker itself becomes the limiting factor.
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can someone point out if the watt/headroom thing holds true for all the bandwidth or just the bass region?
Well, the bass region is the killer for fairly obvious reasons, & sub 500Hz is where the majority of your power / excursion demands occur.
forgive my irritating ignorance: what parameters should i look at in a driver specs sheets to understand how many watts i'll need to get a certain spl for a given bandwidth?
is it already said by the spl curve? or is it a function of various? sensitivity being a function of the whole bandwidth only i guess
(my main concern being i would know how should i drive say a 96 mid/high driver OB to obtain the said 105db circa attacks and peaks of a symphonic orchestra?)
P.S. Scott being you the designer, do you think the miniwatt is a suitable match for the alpair10 BVR (i'll be at it as soon as i end the work i'm on 🙂 ) i also tought of the dyens ampino
is it already said by the spl curve? or is it a function of various? sensitivity being a function of the whole bandwidth only i guess
(my main concern being i would know how should i drive say a 96 mid/high driver OB to obtain the said 105db circa attacks and peaks of a symphonic orchestra?)
P.S. Scott being you the designer, do you think the miniwatt is a suitable match for the alpair10 BVR (i'll be at it as soon as i end the work i'm on 🙂 ) i also tought of the dyens ampino
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Dayens Ampino while being extremely good, is Class AB, and may not equal Class A amps, in my humble opinion.
And so many of your questions are good questions, the answers to which not many people have. Many aspects of design are still based on experience and rules of thumb.
And so many of your questions are good questions, the answers to which not many people have. Many aspects of design are still based on experience and rules of thumb.
Nothing irritating about it.
There isn't really a simple answer TBH, because it greatly depends on the method of loading employed in the bass regions. A horn is the optimal means; it's much more efficient than any other method of coupling the driver to the air, which means reduced excursion, lower distortion & more dynamic bandwidth / headroom.
The Miniwatt? On the face of it, I'd say output's on the low side for the Alpair 10s. It'll do, providing you're only wanting background listening, but the driver can handle more than the amp puts out.
There isn't really a simple answer TBH, because it greatly depends on the method of loading employed in the bass regions. A horn is the optimal means; it's much more efficient than any other method of coupling the driver to the air, which means reduced excursion, lower distortion & more dynamic bandwidth / headroom.
The Miniwatt? On the face of it, I'd say output's on the low side for the Alpair 10s. It'll do, providing you're only wanting background listening, but the driver can handle more than the amp puts out.
Frugelhorn + Miniwatt review
Hi all,
I recently purchased the Miniwatt. Over the past month or so I've been breaking it in. This weekend my parents had a 30th birthday party for me at their house. We went with the "album party" theme and told everyone to dig up record albums they wanted to listen to. I brought over my Frugelhorns and the Miniwatt. I also brought my Music Hall MMF-2.2 turntable and Bellari VP-530 preamp. It's a modest setup compared to what some of you have but it's the best sounding setup I've ever listened to. The room size was quite large with a low ceiling and wall-to-wall carpeting, the frugels were properly placed in corners.
How did it sound? Testing the setup before guests arrived, I was in heaven. The frugels were really shining in the room. The bass was toned down a bit from my small listening room at home but the sound stage was alive with pin point imaging. With no other distractions in the room, 2.5 watts was more than enough for me to enjoy the music. I tested a few jazz albums and some classic rock. I had to pull out the poly-fill from the horn mouths for the rock music. I had it in there to reduce the boomy-ness in my room at home.
When guests arrived, I had to boost the bellari pre-amp to 4:00 (90%) when I normally keep it around 12:00, while keeping the Miniwatt at 12:00 (50%). As the night went on and things got louder, even pegging both the Bellari and the Miniwatt, I couldn't get the system to keep up. The Fostex speakers weren't being overdriven so I think it was simply a matter of 2.5 watts not being enough. But again, how did it sound? Awesome! Even at full-tilt the music was smooth as butter and enjoyable by all. We just wanted a little extra push to cut through the background chatter and it wasn't there.
So my brief conclusion of the Miniwatt is that it is an amazing amp at an even more amazing price...but you need to keep your expectations in check about what 2.5 watts can actually do. The FE126eN drivers will need more juice if you want to over power a crowd of 10 people singing along to Bohemian Rhapsody 🙂
On a side note, I also had my iPod touch connected for a short while. With the iPod at 90% volume, I had roughly the same volume as the Bellari at 90% volume. So I would imagine if you have a pre-amp with more gain than your typical MP3 player, you'd have more overhead to work with when using the Miniwatt.
Hi all,
I recently purchased the Miniwatt. Over the past month or so I've been breaking it in. This weekend my parents had a 30th birthday party for me at their house. We went with the "album party" theme and told everyone to dig up record albums they wanted to listen to. I brought over my Frugelhorns and the Miniwatt. I also brought my Music Hall MMF-2.2 turntable and Bellari VP-530 preamp. It's a modest setup compared to what some of you have but it's the best sounding setup I've ever listened to. The room size was quite large with a low ceiling and wall-to-wall carpeting, the frugels were properly placed in corners.
How did it sound? Testing the setup before guests arrived, I was in heaven. The frugels were really shining in the room. The bass was toned down a bit from my small listening room at home but the sound stage was alive with pin point imaging. With no other distractions in the room, 2.5 watts was more than enough for me to enjoy the music. I tested a few jazz albums and some classic rock. I had to pull out the poly-fill from the horn mouths for the rock music. I had it in there to reduce the boomy-ness in my room at home.
When guests arrived, I had to boost the bellari pre-amp to 4:00 (90%) when I normally keep it around 12:00, while keeping the Miniwatt at 12:00 (50%). As the night went on and things got louder, even pegging both the Bellari and the Miniwatt, I couldn't get the system to keep up. The Fostex speakers weren't being overdriven so I think it was simply a matter of 2.5 watts not being enough. But again, how did it sound? Awesome! Even at full-tilt the music was smooth as butter and enjoyable by all. We just wanted a little extra push to cut through the background chatter and it wasn't there.
So my brief conclusion of the Miniwatt is that it is an amazing amp at an even more amazing price...but you need to keep your expectations in check about what 2.5 watts can actually do. The FE126eN drivers will need more juice if you want to over power a crowd of 10 people singing along to Bohemian Rhapsody 🙂
On a side note, I also had my iPod touch connected for a short while. With the iPod at 90% volume, I had roughly the same volume as the Bellari at 90% volume. So I would imagine if you have a pre-amp with more gain than your typical MP3 player, you'd have more overhead to work with when using the Miniwatt.
Well, I built my a166 speakers and tried them out with a few different amplifiers. The K-12g, an unidentified old console tube amp, a Leipai ta2025 t-amp, and Arjen Heder's ta2025 mk II t-amp. All of them provide more than enough gain to power the a166 speakers in my living room. I mostly listen to LPs on a Rega p3-24 with a dl-103 cart. The phono stage is a CA 640p and the preamp is a NAD 1155.
K-12g: I upgraded it with auricaps and took out the dc blocking caps and did most of the other recommended alterations (snubber caps, etc). This is my preferred amp so far. It's not the quietest amp in the world, I still haven't figured out how to get rid of the hum. But it's sweet, clear, and has no problems driving the fostex. However, it lacks the punch and deep bass of my older console tube amp, and it isn't as clear as Arjen's t-amp. It sounds much better when I use it with a preamp. When I connect the phono stage directly to it, it sounds both bloated and slightly weak (this may be because the 640p doesn't provide enough gain to the dl-103 mc cart). I also suspect it's running too hot, but there's no way to adjust the bias. It actually sounds worse after it's warmed up than when it's still cold, and I've already burnt out a tube.
Old console tube amp: No idea what make or model. This one can really make music with the a166, however it sounds old, washed out, and muddy. I'm guessing the caps need replacing. I have a feeling that if I fully reconditioned it, it'd be much better than the k-12g. It's already more powerful and musical, it's just worn out sounding.
The Lepai ta2025 based t-amp sounded very harsh, metallic and all around cheap. It sounded a lot better with a pair of Advent /2 speakers, but it's a very bad match for the A166. I know there's a lot of upgrades people do to these things, maybe they'd make it behave better.
Arjen Heder's ta2025 MK II: Terrific sounding amplifier, probably the best solid state amp I've ever heard. It's clear and powerful without being harsh and nasty like the Lepai. It has even less punch and slam than either tube amps, nor does it have that tube sweetness. Even so, it's very listenable, supremely clear, and I could easily live with it if my tubes all blew out. Arjen also makes a 12au7 preamp for it, so I've ordered one along with a MK III amp, maybe that will give it a little tube sweetness. My only complaint is that it doesn't have that transient power or "slam" the tube amps have. Other than that, it's a wonderful little amp for a great price. I highly recommend it.
I'm also in the process of building a tubelab SE amp with type 45 tubes. The board's done, I'm just waiting for transformers from Edcor. I suspect this will be my "ultimate" amplifier, and I think they should provide enough gain but we'll see.
After that, I'm going to try to build Nelson Pass's F5. I still haven't listened to the Miniwatt, but if I had to do it all over again I would probably have bought one over the k-12g. It's worth the extra price to have a nice case and I doubt the k-12g sounds much better. It's a great way to dip your toes in DIY tube stuff, though. You don't have to order all the parts seperately like the Tubelab amps, it's pretty fool proof. I also suspect a reconditioned console tube amp from the 60's would outperform any of the sub-$300 tube amps out today, but I'll have to wait until I recondition mine to see.
K-12g: I upgraded it with auricaps and took out the dc blocking caps and did most of the other recommended alterations (snubber caps, etc). This is my preferred amp so far. It's not the quietest amp in the world, I still haven't figured out how to get rid of the hum. But it's sweet, clear, and has no problems driving the fostex. However, it lacks the punch and deep bass of my older console tube amp, and it isn't as clear as Arjen's t-amp. It sounds much better when I use it with a preamp. When I connect the phono stage directly to it, it sounds both bloated and slightly weak (this may be because the 640p doesn't provide enough gain to the dl-103 mc cart). I also suspect it's running too hot, but there's no way to adjust the bias. It actually sounds worse after it's warmed up than when it's still cold, and I've already burnt out a tube.
Old console tube amp: No idea what make or model. This one can really make music with the a166, however it sounds old, washed out, and muddy. I'm guessing the caps need replacing. I have a feeling that if I fully reconditioned it, it'd be much better than the k-12g. It's already more powerful and musical, it's just worn out sounding.
The Lepai ta2025 based t-amp sounded very harsh, metallic and all around cheap. It sounded a lot better with a pair of Advent /2 speakers, but it's a very bad match for the A166. I know there's a lot of upgrades people do to these things, maybe they'd make it behave better.
Arjen Heder's ta2025 MK II: Terrific sounding amplifier, probably the best solid state amp I've ever heard. It's clear and powerful without being harsh and nasty like the Lepai. It has even less punch and slam than either tube amps, nor does it have that tube sweetness. Even so, it's very listenable, supremely clear, and I could easily live with it if my tubes all blew out. Arjen also makes a 12au7 preamp for it, so I've ordered one along with a MK III amp, maybe that will give it a little tube sweetness. My only complaint is that it doesn't have that transient power or "slam" the tube amps have. Other than that, it's a wonderful little amp for a great price. I highly recommend it.
I'm also in the process of building a tubelab SE amp with type 45 tubes. The board's done, I'm just waiting for transformers from Edcor. I suspect this will be my "ultimate" amplifier, and I think they should provide enough gain but we'll see.
After that, I'm going to try to build Nelson Pass's F5. I still haven't listened to the Miniwatt, but if I had to do it all over again I would probably have bought one over the k-12g. It's worth the extra price to have a nice case and I doubt the k-12g sounds much better. It's a great way to dip your toes in DIY tube stuff, though. You don't have to order all the parts seperately like the Tubelab amps, it's pretty fool proof. I also suspect a reconditioned console tube amp from the 60's would outperform any of the sub-$300 tube amps out today, but I'll have to wait until I recondition mine to see.
Interesting. I'm in the middle of a love affair with Tripath amps - and I see that I'll have to try more tube amps 🙂
That said, I can reeeeaally recommend the Tripath TK2050 chipset. It's noticeably sweeter and clearer than the TA2024, higher powered, and also has very noticeably greater dynamics / slam at equivalent power levels.
I've personally built and loved 41Hz Amp4 and Amp11 kits with this chipset, and Sure Electronics are also selling readymade amplifier boards using it - there's a great modding thread for those in the Class-D subforum here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/143669-sure-electronics-new-tripath-board-tc2000-tp2050.html
Stock, the Sure amps seem to be inferior to the 41Hz stuff, but have the advantage of being prebuilt, and modified, it looks like they're on par.
I've powered my 3" BiB speakers with a TA2024 and it was magical ... I'll have to try my TK2050 amps with them. I forgot to do it, plain and simple 🙂 ... so thanks for the reminder.
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