AJ said:
Thanks! - In my long narrow room I wanted the mids to beam horizontally to try and cut down on side wall reflections and crosstalk cancellation between the two speakers. It worked but too much - plus the twin drivers had too much output below 800 hz compared to a single 'linear' driver. I high passed one of the drivers with a first order network at 1k and the response straightened right out on axis but I lost some output below the crossover point. They also don't beam as much and the 'sweet spot' opened up.
The advantage of using two drivers (at least for me) is lower distortion, higher voltage sensitivity and higher output capabilities. IMO one GOOD driver would be better if it wil do all of those things! I have several 10's here that are OK - I'm still looking for the right driver. One that has caught my eye is the Eminence hemp cone guitar driver (10") I haven't spent the bucks yet to try them.
In the past I found the PR170 was fine placed vertically MTM if you use a small tweeter with tight spacing. The problem I have with the Audax is it's limited Xmax and behavior when pushed to 'Magnetar' listening levels. A pair ain't enough --
Work in progress.....!
Eminence Lil' Buddy - is the xmax and powe handling enough? Simulations say yes-----
Hi magnetar
Consideding that you had horn tweeter, Heil and ribbon.
Is the CD+waveguide better than the best heil or ribbon
I'm seriously considering the fountek neo5pro for my next project
http://www.fountek.net/products_neo_pro5i.htm
but Lynn olson Rave about the raal ribbon
And to add to the confusion, I also liked very much the jbl2405 slot tweeter . but with these, it will be impossible to go lower than 7Khz
but their beyma equivalent (cp21 or cp25) are appeling too and could go to 2.5-3Khz with high slope...
I plan to biamp them and cross around 2-2.5khz and use a good widerange 10" speaker to mate them (+ my rythmik subs)
Thanks
Consideding that you had horn tweeter, Heil and ribbon.
Is the CD+waveguide better than the best heil or ribbon
I'm seriously considering the fountek neo5pro for my next project
http://www.fountek.net/products_neo_pro5i.htm
but Lynn olson Rave about the raal ribbon
And to add to the confusion, I also liked very much the jbl2405 slot tweeter . but with these, it will be impossible to go lower than 7Khz
but their beyma equivalent (cp21 or cp25) are appeling too and could go to 2.5-3Khz with high slope...I plan to biamp them and cross around 2-2.5khz and use a good widerange 10" speaker to mate them (+ my rythmik subs)
Thanks
Magnetar said:
Its not surprising that you wanted a bit more dispersion above 1 kHz, this usually always improves the soundstage. (..frankly the attempt at limiting dispersion at higher freq.s is IMO misguided, though some sidewall treatment can often be very useful.)
I had mentioned (well back) on Lynn's thread the potential of 4 PR170M0's in a vertical line (though not operated into a line-source behavior) with a near non-existent baffle (paired with a ribbon or planar). I still think its an excellent idea, but it just didn't get much "play".
As for the Eminence drivers - I don't think they have any driver that is really correct for this application. BUT you might be able to get close to that with a custom order (say the Lil' Buddy with the Red Fang's magnet, and might trade-in the paper former for a nomex one, particularly if I wanted higher power with lower distortion).
Btw, good to hear that you are digg'in the Warrior 10's.. I still very much enjoy my Knight 10's.
etalon90 said:Hi magnetar
Consideding that you had horn tweeter, Heil and ribbon.
Is the CD+waveguide better than the best heil or ribbon
I'm seriously considering the fountek neo5pro for my next project
http://www.fountek.net/products_neo_pro5i.htm
but Lynn olson Rave about the raal ribbon
And to add to the confusion, I also liked very much the jbl2405 slot tweeter . but with these, it will be impossible to go lower than 7Khz
I plan to biamp them and cross around 2-2.5khz and use a good widerange 10" speaker to mate them (+ my rythmik subs)
Thanks
They all have there place! The compression driver can't be beat for dynamics and output, the Heil has it's own 'sound' that is pleasant but grows old - everything seems to sound nice but sterile - weird - Never heard a Raal - The ribbons I've used that is closest is probably the Auram Cantus G1. It's nice and linear and extended but VERY limited in output, suppresses dynamics and NO FUN to listen to. probably best mated to a typical 4" - 5" 'high end" low efficiency mid......... Unless of course you listen with little amps and don't like the music loud, then they fill in nicely. I would not expect the Raal to be better -! I don't see any changes other than a flat ribbon ( I meade my own for the AC years ago) and the foam 'guided" - I did that too..... The Fountek is probablt very close to these.
I think 2-2.5 k is too low fro the JBL or Beyma. If it were me I'd probably use the little 18 sound horn a good 1" compression driver
ScottG said:
I had mentioned (well back) on Lynn's thread the potential of 4 PR170M0's in a vertical line (though not operated into a line-source behavior) with a near non-existent baffle (paired with a ribbon or planar). I still think its an excellent idea, but it just didn't get much "play".
As for the Eminence drivers - I don't think they have any driver that is really correct for this application. BUT you might be able to get close to that with a custom order (say the Lil' Buddy with the Red Fang's magnet, and might trade-in the paper former for a nomex one, particularly if I wanted higher power with lower distortion).
Btw, good to hear that you are digg'in the Warrior 10's.. I still very much enjoy my Knight 10's.
I agree - four of the Audax a side would be killer, how would you configure them if not in a line source? Top and bottom low passed at 800 and centers wide range? Seems that would be sweet- but what about the treble?? They may even be usable to 300 cycles this way.....
What do you think about two of the Eminence 'buddy' 10's in an MTM with a compression driver coming in at 1.2K and high passed at 150 triamped with the same bottome end I'm using now?
The Warriors don't seem to be available now - I think they were like 15 bucks a piece - LOL
seen any posted opinions of Eminence's Buddy (or CH2010) for hifi? Alpha 6A seemed to measure with low distortion... not sure how they sound when used correctly - ah - I remember a quick passive lashup as mid with Karlson 12 - not too bad - pym1298 could hit hard
I've got one CH250 double magnet - pleasant but don't know how it would fare as a midrange -
I've got one CH250 double magnet - pleasant but don't know how it would fare as a midrange -
freddi said:
Nope - only for guitar - lots of people like them - pretty odd ball for hifi one is 50 bucks -- not that much to loose
the alpha 6 looks good but who knows? I have sooo many drivers here already
One that I have that surprises me is the EV VMR - ( the 6" mid with the HUGE MAGNET in it's own vented enclosure)
I took it out of the baffle and mounted it on a board and it kicked butt. I keep wanting to put those in this system......
Magnetar said:
Judging from the demos at Burning Amp, the RAAL's are capable of plenty of output. One of the demos had a double height ribbon with two cone mids and a big sub - not for domestic use, but for PA! They played loud enough outside the firehouse to disturb the demos inside, and sounded pretty good doing it.
Magnetar said:
Magnetar, I've heard both. The Fountek/Aurum Cantus are exactly as you say - wussy HF for wussy audiophile drivers like Scan-Speak, Seas, Vifa, et al. Dynamics about as compressed as a 1" soft dome - but in an oddly different way that's very hard to describe. Lots of air - which I suspect is an artifact - but the lack of impact and the flatness of harmonic colors undoes everything.
The visual similarity of the RAAL to other similar-looking drivers is deceiving. I cornered Alexander on just this point - what's going on here, anyway?
His story is that electrostats, magnetic stretched-films, and corrugated ribbons all share a common defect - the diaphragm goes into thousands of chaotic drumhead modes, and most of the kinetic energy is dissipated into self-excitation, instead of into the air. In effect, the air load supplies much less large-area damping than conventionally thought - the smoothness of the response is actually thousands of fine-grained modes, which can be measured when the microphone is a half-inch away from the diaphragm.
The "uniform surface drive" design expectation for all three classes of drivers only occurs at the lowest frequencies - above that chaotic drumhead resonances dominate and give a fine-grained roughness to the response, as well as robbing dynamics of their impact. It is equivalent to "current-hogging" in an array of transistors, where a few transistors do all the work and the rest are all idle. In planar, stretched-film, and conventional ribbons, only a few areas actually radiate sound in a coherent way, the rest is going into chaotic modes that are strongly level and frequency-dependent.
The trick on a planar driver of any sort is to distribute these drumhead modes in a controlled way, and shape the magnetic field so skin effect (a big problem with the very thin flat ribbon in a ribbon tweeter) doesn't distort the current flow in the ribbon. Solving these problems is non-trivial and requires access to laser holography labs.
Is this theory-of-operation true? I have no way of knowing without looking at the data for myself - this is the kind of thing I'm reluctant to accept on faith, or even a persuasive argument. Whether Alexander's hypothesis is valid or not I cannot say - but they do sound different than any ribbon I've heard so far, which is something I didn't expect at all.
musical waveguide - make a straight sided knockoff with 10 cents worth of pvc, ~5.3" length, 1/8" starting gap and half-ellipse slot - I got the real thing years after the guess - tilt the knockoff upwards about 30 degrees from horizontal
I put a dowel in one to hear if had any effects - some Transylvania tube had a steel roller pin about 1/2" down the thraot
10 cent tube on little coupler
de25
I put a dowel in one to hear if had any effects - some Transylvania tube had a steel roller pin about 1/2" down the thraot
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
10 cent tube on little coupler
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
de25
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Magnetar said:
..in a vertical line for the audax mids.. but listened to at a distance of at least 3 meters. That gives you a top-end extension of around 3 kHz before the line starts behaving like a line source. I.E it would be low-passed below 3 kHz (and more likely closer to 2 kHz).
About the "buddy"..
Depends on the compression driver and the horn vs. the directivity pattern of the buddy. It *sounds* about right though. I'd personally opt for a dual-compression driver/horn approach with the rear as a dipole with a single crossover point (i.e. same operational bandwidth).
Yeah, I got my Knights for less than $30 each (only 2 16 ohms per side though).. LOL
quite the bargain used as a dipole or a cardioid for the midbass.
freddi said:
But what happens to the dispersion when the pipe is straight at you and no tilt? Wouldn't it become a "sound laser" as the call it above = IOW beam like a SOB
ScottG said:
Please explain this more. What do you mean? What do you mean by rear? What do you mean by dual compression driver? Back to back dipole horns? What about the two lil buddies? back to back dipoles too?
Thanks guys
Lynn Olsson wrote;
How does the magnetic field affect the skin effect?
Thin flat ribbon type conductors are the ones that are the least suspectible to skin effect according to known laws of physics.
So far no one has been able to show (as far as I know) that skin effect is a problem in audio (though I'm still open for debate on that one).
Do you have insight in these issues Lynn or are these the words from the designer of that ribbon tweeter?
/Peter
How does the magnetic field affect the skin effect?
Thin flat ribbon type conductors are the ones that are the least suspectible to skin effect according to known laws of physics.
So far no one has been able to show (as far as I know) that skin effect is a problem in audio (though I'm still open for debate on that one).
Do you have insight in these issues Lynn or are these the words from the designer of that ribbon tweeter?
/Peter
Magnetar said:
2 compression drivers each in their own horn.
1 (the front) firing in phase. the rear firing out of phase. (i.e. dipole).
1 buddy open backed (i.e. dipole).
However IF you wanted to you could have 2 buddys operating in the same manner as the compression drivers. They would however require a fair bit of enclosure volume (for each driver), and they would have a greater compression (due to their enclosure) - BUT that would almost certainly give you a more "dynamic" sound (if you crave that over the non-box sound of the open baffle).
etalon90 said:
Cantare has built a BLH with this
http://www.ciare.com/pdf/catalogo/PM250.pdf
that goes down to 50Hz. Maybe combining it with a Beyma slot would work, but with a ring radiator (as Cantare did) you would have better-controlled dispersion.
a 1" slotted-pipe waveguide would measure hot on-axis on the top - maybe in practice it might (?) sound ok - I've listened to the Transylania tube pointing straight ahead as with the mysterious Doug's khyboe setup with Steve Clarke's "Solo Drums" cd and it was pretty good - Transylvania's tube had a 2 degree downwards sidewall taper. Here's Doug's beautiful khromed tubes
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8149/superk6lv.jpg
for a separate tweeter try a 5.3" long half-ellipse tube with 1/8" starting gap in one inch pvc pipe on a compression driver --- for higher F, CN liked APT50 with APT3 put down into 1/2" plywood then sawed off the excess of APT3 - DE25 sounds good to me on a 1" diy tube - grab whatever one inch drver you have and try a tube.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8149/superk6lv.jpg
for a separate tweeter try a 5.3" long half-ellipse tube with 1/8" starting gap in one inch pvc pipe on a compression driver --- for higher F, CN liked APT50 with APT3 put down into 1/2" plywood then sawed off the excess of APT3 - DE25 sounds good to me on a 1" diy tube - grab whatever one inch drver you have and try a tube.
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