Just purchased a new xover for my fantastic Thors i purchased in 2004,
Figured it was time to upgrade.
So I mentioned to a certain web site builder, that i wanted the Mundorf caps in the xovers,,, a pair of 10uf Supreme Silver gold I alrady had and shipped to the builder,,along witha a pair of 8.2 uf EVO OIL SG's.. so there is 1 cap 8.2 which the designer told me *its not important cap, not in the signal, so best not to spend money where it is not needed..**, so I believed him,,But got to thinking,,, I need a 2nd opinion if that cap is in the sound circuit or not.
Its the 18uf in the Millennium tweeter xover.
I have the schematic and 2 pics to upload.
If the Supreme Aluminum is in the sonic path, then its not what i requested.
I requested all tweeter caps to be Mundorf Silver/EFVO silvergold.
With the following:
8.2uf silverglEVO Oil
10uf Silver Gold supreme+ 8.2 Silvergold EVO Oil
2.2 Aluminum EVO Oil (which i can live with, but prefer Silvergold EVO Oil)
So he decided to go with a 8.2 aluminum Supreme.
My guess is the EVO Silvergold OIL will voice a superior high range vs the Supreme aluminum which is 3 X's the size of the EVO OIL.
Figured it was time to upgrade.
So I mentioned to a certain web site builder, that i wanted the Mundorf caps in the xovers,,, a pair of 10uf Supreme Silver gold I alrady had and shipped to the builder,,along witha a pair of 8.2 uf EVO OIL SG's.. so there is 1 cap 8.2 which the designer told me *its not important cap, not in the signal, so best not to spend money where it is not needed..**, so I believed him,,But got to thinking,,, I need a 2nd opinion if that cap is in the sound circuit or not.
Its the 18uf in the Millennium tweeter xover.
I have the schematic and 2 pics to upload.
If the Supreme Aluminum is in the sonic path, then its not what i requested.
I requested all tweeter caps to be Mundorf Silver/EFVO silvergold.
With the following:
8.2uf silverglEVO Oil
10uf Silver Gold supreme+ 8.2 Silvergold EVO Oil
2.2 Aluminum EVO Oil (which i can live with, but prefer Silvergold EVO Oil)
So he decided to go with a 8.2 aluminum Supreme.
My guess is the EVO Silvergold OIL will voice a superior high range vs the Supreme aluminum which is 3 X's the size of the EVO OIL.
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Normally the caps in series with the signal (i.e. C2 and C3) have the biggest impact on the sound. If you genuinely don't care about the cost the you can of course upgrade the parallel caps as much as you like as well, but from a "common sense" POV your builder is giving you good advice 🙂
Yeah well C3 is made up of
1 Mundorf Silvergold Supreme 10uf + 1 Mundorf Supreme Aluminum ]
I would prefer that 18 uf made of
Supreme Silver Oil 10uf + EVO Oil SG.
So now i know the Supreme Aluminum(C3) has to go and be replaced with a EVO Oil SG.
Thanks
I'll let the designer know he made a error in what i initally requested.
I went over the specs several times, and went with his advice,,
Seems best to get 2nd opinions on components relating to xovers.
1 Mundorf Silvergold Supreme 10uf + 1 Mundorf Supreme Aluminum ]
I would prefer that 18 uf made of
Supreme Silver Oil 10uf + EVO Oil SG.
So now i know the Supreme Aluminum(C3) has to go and be replaced with a EVO Oil SG.
Thanks
I'll let the designer know he made a error in what i initally requested.
I went over the specs several times, and went with his advice,,
Seems best to get 2nd opinions on components relating to xovers.
Ok what about C4, how does this 2.2uf cap come in to play?
In circuit sonics pathway,, or not?
I'm thinking of replacing this aluminum with silver..
Tech geek said its not in pathway, so any cap will work *just fine*.
In circuit sonics pathway,, or not?
I'm thinking of replacing this aluminum with silver..
Tech geek said its not in pathway, so any cap will work *just fine*.
C2/C3 are the higher importance, but all caps are in the circuit. The 2.2uF is to reduce the top octave rise of the tweeter.
Wolf
Wolf
C1 may be in a less critical position. I wouldn't say it is because it is in parallel, sometimes parallel caps are very important. The resistance in series may contribute.
great,
Then here is how it will eventually work out
C1 currently has a Bennic 8.2uf (exact same cap as original xover from 2004,,= no upgrade whatsoever..??)
C2 has Mundorf8.2uf SG EVO Oil (smaller version of the Supreme SG) = will remain
C3, has M10uf Supreme SG (stays) + M Supreme 8.2 aluminum, will replace with M SG EVO Oil 8.2uf
C4 has 2.2 Aluminum, will roll to 2.2 SG EVO Oil.
The Bennic 8.2 will get dumped for a M 8.2uf Mcap Supreme EVO Oil
Then here is how it will eventually work out
C1 currently has a Bennic 8.2uf (exact same cap as original xover from 2004,,= no upgrade whatsoever..??)
C2 has Mundorf8.2uf SG EVO Oil (smaller version of the Supreme SG) = will remain
C3, has M10uf Supreme SG (stays) + M Supreme 8.2 aluminum, will replace with M SG EVO Oil 8.2uf
C4 has 2.2 Aluminum, will roll to 2.2 SG EVO Oil.
The Bennic 8.2 will get dumped for a M 8.2uf Mcap Supreme EVO Oil
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with this xover layout, ona economic consideration basis,, the Thors high tech drivers the Millennium and EXcel W18's, will now voice like they were made to sing.
I have a pair of new Millennium ssitting on my desk, and will have Richard Graw do the solder tomorrow, The used but have brand new voice coils/diaphrams ($52 each) are up for sale,,, like $300 for the pair, Test very good..and the 2 xovers with Hovland caps are also up for sale with copper flat wire attached to xovers.
maybe $150 for the pair Test good, no issues.
Will upload a YT vid once new Zfoils are employed in Jadis DPL this week, and new 6922 tubes arrive for the Cayin CD17 Mark 1, + lots and lots of other surprises comming. Stay tuned....
we are all about to find out just what magic these Seas Thors holds
Mundorf meets Seas... Could be <<explosive>>
I have a pair of new Millennium ssitting on my desk, and will have Richard Graw do the solder tomorrow, The used but have brand new voice coils/diaphrams ($52 each) are up for sale,,, like $300 for the pair, Test very good..and the 2 xovers with Hovland caps are also up for sale with copper flat wire attached to xovers.
maybe $150 for the pair Test good, no issues.
Will upload a YT vid once new Zfoils are employed in Jadis DPL this week, and new 6922 tubes arrive for the Cayin CD17 Mark 1, + lots and lots of other surprises comming. Stay tuned....
we are all about to find out just what magic these Seas Thors holds
Mundorf meets Seas... Could be <<explosive>>
C1 may be in a less critical position
Yes I am fully aware the C1 is for midwoofers,, But since we are going top notch,, why not try the far superior Mcap Supreme Aluminum??
I am trying to take the Thors to their <<ultimate limits>> which no one has gone thus far,, I will have the only set of Thors with this high tech xover.New Millenniums were purchased,,<<just in case there might be some wear after 17 yrs,,but laying silent a good 10 yrs,,as i had no high quality pre/line stage for the Defy7..
Been bringing my entire system into upgrades.
In 2 months all will be complete with new Zfoils going in DPL , later in Defy7.
Yes I am fully aware the C1 is for midwoofers,, But since we are going top notch,, why not try the far superior Mcap Supreme Aluminum??
I am trying to take the Thors to their <<ultimate limits>> which no one has gone thus far,, I will have the only set of Thors with this high tech xover.New Millenniums were purchased,,<<just in case there might be some wear after 17 yrs,,but laying silent a good 10 yrs,,as i had no high quality pre/line stage for the Defy7..
Been bringing my entire system into upgrades.
In 2 months all will be complete with new Zfoils going in DPL , later in Defy7.
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No, actually it's better to do comparative listening tests between components to check for differences 😉
"Desk research" on the benefits of expensive audiophile components and the differences between them is actually pretty stupid, because "more expensive" doesn't always mean "better" 😀
mozartfan, I am so pleased you are having a good time with the SEAS Thor:
Most people moan insufferably about this thing:
Thor speaker – lots of help needed please!
TBH, the best speaker in the World is going to sound terrible in an overly-lively room setup like that! 😀
I honestly wouldn't bother with component upgrades in your crossover beyond replacing ferrite coil inductors with air-cores which aren't expensive.
Ferrite is scientifically, measurably bad on distortion.
Resistors are just copper wire like your voicecoils.
I have never been able to hear improvement with different types of capacitor. They work.
If you really need to upgrade your system, I would consider thicker carpets and heavier drapes. IMO, there is something to be said for valve amplifiers too:
Stereo 40 MkIV Integrated KT88 Amplifier - Stereo 40 MkIV - Integrated Amplifiers
Valves are Fast!
You will need feedback mode with your reflex Thors. I really ought to buy one myself! 😎
Most people moan insufferably about this thing:
Thor speaker – lots of help needed please!
TBH, the best speaker in the World is going to sound terrible in an overly-lively room setup like that! 😀
I honestly wouldn't bother with component upgrades in your crossover beyond replacing ferrite coil inductors with air-cores which aren't expensive.
Ferrite is scientifically, measurably bad on distortion.
Resistors are just copper wire like your voicecoils.
I have never been able to hear improvement with different types of capacitor. They work.
If you really need to upgrade your system, I would consider thicker carpets and heavier drapes. IMO, there is something to be said for valve amplifiers too:
Stereo 40 MkIV Integrated KT88 Amplifier - Stereo 40 MkIV - Integrated Amplifiers
Valves are Fast!
You will need feedback mode with your reflex Thors. I really ought to buy one myself! 😎
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Well, don't have that kind of cash. So here is what i am thinking,
The Bennic cap in the midwoofer,, might not be all that important as per tech guy's opinion,, but for some $30-$40 I can get the M Supreme 8.2 and perhaps will add something the Bennic does not,,
The Bennic looks likea 2$ cap. I told the tech I want top quality throughout the xover,, so I have to call the Wisconsin company and get another tech to help me get things right. btw I see you are in DEnamark, the land of the celestial speaker labs.
Seas, Scanspeak, SB Acoustics. No other conuntry comes even close to Denmark's engineering magic in speakers.
As I mentioned ona audiogon topic yesterday,, if a speaker does not have these 3 labs in the drivers,, I am not even the least bit interested.
The audiogon poster loves to bash big speaker labs all day long.
Which is a good thing.
Most speakers sound terrible. Including the wayyy over rated B&W's.
The previous xover from 2003 had 14 Goertz for midwoofers,, thiankfully the tech suggested going 12 ga,, , the mids now sound like subwoofers,, If you meausre the W18's, the acutal surround edge to edge mmeasures 5.5 inches, Fora tiny cone, these W18 with super heavy copper magnet systems, put out rock solid, heavy metal slam style bass.
Adding a nice M Supreme cap,, should add even more clean, tight bass and upper bass fq's.
Will post a YT vid here once the xovers are updated with superior caps.
mozartfan, you are off your head! Sorry. 😀
Upgrading an 8.2uF C1 capacitor will add exactly NOTHING to bass response! It only works in the midrange.
I know you want more, but this is not the way to do it. If you want a serious upgrade, get in touch with Rick Craig of Selah Audio:
Now THAT is good.
Upgrading an 8.2uF C1 capacitor will add exactly NOTHING to bass response! It only works in the midrange.
I know you want more, but this is not the way to do it. If you want a serious upgrade, get in touch with Rick Craig of Selah Audio:
Now THAT is good.
As an addition Seas are Norwegian, not Danish. 😉
Either way, as Steve said, C1 is part of the stopband notch, i.e. it operates above the frequency across which you are using the driver. Its purpose is to attenuate the bell mode resonance. Which it does. Although whether it does so sufficiently to suppress the resonance induced HD lower down, where the driver is being used, is another question. Some feel it doesn't; unfortunately, if that is the case (I'm not saying it is, just noting what happens if they are correct), the only way of fixing it is to redesign the crossover.
Either way, as Steve said, C1 is part of the stopband notch, i.e. it operates above the frequency across which you are using the driver
to suppress the resonance induced HD lower down
😕
over my DIY range skills
, Denmark, Norway, , lets say Scandanavian😉
Well , then the Bennic will do the job,,however if I swap out the M Supreme 8.2(C3)aluminum for a M SG EVO Oil 8.2(C3), I will have the Supreme as extra..
Here is my Q, the M Supreme will not fit flat where the Bennic is in the C1,, can we stand it up?,,and just solder a longer lead to the top end?
Doable?
Not sure if Richard Gray wants to do it,,he will solder my new Millenniums tomorrow,, But as for going along with taking out caps for superior caps,, he might say *why?*,,
But if i know its doable, then he can't get away with saying << won't work standing up>> after reading here that in fact is doable,,and will have to make the solders myself.
Beginners luck...
😕
over my DIY range skills
, Denmark, Norway, , lets say Scandanavian😉
Well , then the Bennic will do the job,,however if I swap out the M Supreme 8.2(C3)aluminum for a M SG EVO Oil 8.2(C3), I will have the Supreme as extra..
Here is my Q, the M Supreme will not fit flat where the Bennic is in the C1,, can we stand it up?,,and just solder a longer lead to the top end?
Doable?
Not sure if Richard Gray wants to do it,,he will solder my new Millenniums tomorrow,, But as for going along with taking out caps for superior caps,, he might say *why?*,,
But if i know its doable, then he can't get away with saying << won't work standing up>> after reading here that in fact is doable,,and will have to make the solders myself.
Beginners luck...
I am one of the few who have actually made to to SEAS head-quarters in Moss, Norway.
Trust me on this. SEAS build significantly good woofers. TBH, only people who match them are the US company Eminence IMO.
TBH, I get a bit vaguer on tweeters. I am not too sure that dome tweeters are exactly the best way to approach things.
Would I spend Money on this tweeter?
Probably not. 😀
This Rick Craig Ribbon however warms my Heart:
Reason being, whatever you think of Ribbons versus domes, Rick has understood the inverse-square Law:
Same Idea done another way:
Trust me on this. SEAS build significantly good woofers. TBH, only people who match them are the US company Eminence IMO.
TBH, I get a bit vaguer on tweeters. I am not too sure that dome tweeters are exactly the best way to approach things.
Would I spend Money on this tweeter?
Probably not. 😀
This Rick Craig Ribbon however warms my Heart:
Reason being, whatever you think of Ribbons versus domes, Rick has understood the inverse-square Law:
Same Idea done another way:
I know you are in England,
You do realize England has never made a good driver.
High Fidelity comes out of Denmark/Norway.
I have no doubts this RC Ribbon MTM is a very nice speaker.
I can see those sweet Scan midwoofers.
But I am old school from the 70's, and stuck on the dome concept.
There are trade offs with every midtweet,
What the ribbon voices so beautiful, falls short where the Cresendo sings gorgeous,
No perfect midtweet, as you know.
Does not the ribbon suffer from that same liability as the Planars?
<the Sweet spot>> If yes, then, not for me..
Would grate my nerves everytime i move around the sound alters,,, not doable.
I've seen a ribbon MTM and offers two ribbons to help alleviate this issue,, so I am aware there is this pointed directional wave form thing going on..
Sorry, can't go that route.
I'll have the Bifrost next year,. will post a YT vid.
You do realize England has never made a good driver.
High Fidelity comes out of Denmark/Norway.
I have no doubts this RC Ribbon MTM is a very nice speaker.
I can see those sweet Scan midwoofers.
But I am old school from the 70's, and stuck on the dome concept.
There are trade offs with every midtweet,
What the ribbon voices so beautiful, falls short where the Cresendo sings gorgeous,
No perfect midtweet, as you know.
Does not the ribbon suffer from that same liability as the Planars?
<the Sweet spot>> If yes, then, not for me..
Would grate my nerves everytime i move around the sound alters,,, not doable.
I've seen a ribbon MTM and offers two ribbons to help alleviate this issue,, so I am aware there is this pointed directional wave form thing going on..
Sorry, can't go that route.
I'll have the Bifrost next year,. will post a YT vid.
Then assuming you wish to learn: no drive unit motor is linear. They all have a baseline distortion level. Cone resonant modes amplify this distortion. Even if those modes are outside the region across which you are using the driver, the distortion they amplify lower down the range is still present. Look at the data for a unit like the EX001. Note in the FR the bell mode. You will see in an HD plot spikes in distortion at multiples of this resonance. For example, in the case of this unit, its main cone mode is at about 5KHz (depending on batch). This amplifies HD3 at about 1.67KHz. The Thor crossover is criticised by some because in their view it does not do enough to suppress that stopband cone mode and prevent it from continuing to amplify the distortion lower down the range. The C1 capacitor you are concerned about is part of the existing suppression circuit that some find insufficient, and changing a regular MKP for an expensive MKP of the same value cannot do anything to change that.
I'm afraid that statement is utter nonsense. There are in fact many excellent moving coil (and other) drive units that are, or have been, produced by UK firms, in the same way there are many excellent moving coil (and other) drive units that have been produced by US firms, and firms across the globe. If you are not aware of that, you will need to reassess your knowledge base.
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AW come off it. We have in London the Albert Hall. The BBC Radio Proms are priceless. I will never forget seeing the Huge Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra doing Sibelius "Swan of Touenela" for a mere £1.50! 😀
The home of good Classical music. I happen to be a Fan of the great French composers.
Lyrical Camille Saint-Saens, Jazzy Claude Debussy. Brilliant.
But I can do Handel, Haydn and any other German refugees that rocked up on our shores.
Great British speakers include Tannoy, KEF and especially Harbeth and Spendor. Who are still delighting us.
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