Have the DXTs, but have not built with them. Heard DIY by another and liked it, "Best of Show" at a recent meet.
Operating via compound diffraction, in theory, they should be HOM City, but nobody can hear it, apparently....
Operating via compound diffraction, in theory, they should be HOM City, but nobody can hear it, apparently....
Hi, I have the Idunn-kit. I can really recommend it, very good off and on axis response. Mabe lacking a bit in the bass, but they roll off so slow they still go very deep.
Here is a link too my build:
AVforum.no - SEAS Idunn bygge"logg"
Its in Norwegian, but the pictures explain alot🙂
I did an inn-room measurement at my listening position with a denon calibration mic.
Dissregard the worst bumps and dips as they are room and position dependent, but you get the idea. Blue line is with subwoofer.
Here is a link too my build:
AVforum.no - SEAS Idunn bygge"logg"
Its in Norwegian, but the pictures explain alot🙂
I did an inn-room measurement at my listening position with a denon calibration mic.
Dissregard the worst bumps and dips as they are room and position dependent, but you get the idea. Blue line is with subwoofer.
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DIFORCE. Its a very nice Speaker. The Seas U18RNX/P I think produces very nice bass for its size. Controlled and smooth with plenty of backing.
"The Seas Idunn is one of my favorite loudspeakers, and they have been anchored in my living room for a long time now. It has a very neutral and detailed sound, but is still lively enough to get your foot tapping and listen to music for hours. Although, what really separates the Idunn from other speakers, is the controlled wide dispersion. This makes it sound good even outside the sweet spot, when I’m lying in the sofa reading a book, or jumping around the living room."
Håvard Sollien, SEAS R&D Manager
Cheers
Cameron
Hasaudio
"The Seas Idunn is one of my favorite loudspeakers, and they have been anchored in my living room for a long time now. It has a very neutral and detailed sound, but is still lively enough to get your foot tapping and listen to music for hours. Although, what really separates the Idunn from other speakers, is the controlled wide dispersion. This makes it sound good even outside the sweet spot, when I’m lying in the sofa reading a book, or jumping around the living room."
Håvard Sollien, SEAS R&D Manager
Cheers
Cameron
Hasaudio
...I did an inn-room measurement at my listening position with a denon calibration mic.
The classic ~ 200 Hz (in this case, exactly 200 Hz) "FBC" [Floor Bounce Cancellation] that you find with any "bookshelf" speaker.
Filling in that big dip at 200 Hz with additional woofer(s) located physically lower really improves the sound IMO.
But, that problem is not particular to the Idunn, it's what you'll see with ANY speaker design lacking low (location, not Hz) woofers.
As far as I can tell, this "problem" is not particular to any loudspeaker. For example, a male vocalist 10 feet away from me, in my room, would have the same "floor bounce cancellation". Do we give him an additional mouth located phyiscally lower?
Interesting point. But what about a drumkit that is usually poistioned on a floor, or an upright bass etc? I guess it depends on the recorded position of the instrument and how it correlates with the woofer location in your room.
To keep things kinda on topic I have a similar design (DXT + ER18) and I like it.
It IS a problem and it is particular to any speakers which do not have woofers located in a relatively low position which play up to at least 200 Hz.
As others have pointed out - does the drum set, the guitar, or, a whole orchestra come out of his mouth? NO.
A deep null at ~ 200 Hz, which is introduced by the speakers, affects ALL the sound sources being played back. Also, a singer who is standing is generally not the same height as the woofer on a "TM" stand mounted speaker, and, the distance that one is from an acoustic singer at a live performance is also usually not the same as the typical distance from speakers at one's listening position when seated at home.
Having both speakers both the same height, and, the same distance from your listening chair exacerbates the problem.
Having two woofers per speaker would at least somewhat, if not substantially, ameliorate the problem.
If I had 4 of the Seas U18RNX/P woofers I would most certainly try to build a TMM tower equivalent of the "Idunn" speaker, partially because of the FBC issue.
Regardless, I would certainly like to hear both the Idunn and the ER18DXT (preferably one after the other in the same room so that I could compare them).
Yes of course - with the upright bass there is a large area - the strings and the entire instrument body which radiate sound.
I do not generally hear a problem with tower speaker designs (such as the Revel Salon Ultima) in regards to the lower woofers making it sound as if a male vocalist has additional mouths at a lower location. I have, conversely, participated in listening experiments where the FBC was filled in and everyone participating agreed there was an audible and clear improvement...
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Well, remember that the mike also picks up the interference effects between the music source and the studio/concert venue so that any notching from the speaker in the listening room (it's not just the floor, it's all of the nearby boundaries) is on top of what's already present. The definitive work in this area was done by Roy Allison, and having heard his speakers and used his design methods myself, I can say that they work.
New Idunn Project
I built these Seas Idunns and I am excited about their response. I used MDF cabinets highly damped and braced. I am including pictures and the frequency response graph. It looks quite flat - They are 1/12 octave smoothed. Would love comments and suggestions and questions. Also, have made a modification. Will post pictures of that soon.
Best,
Atto
I built these Seas Idunns and I am excited about their response. I used MDF cabinets highly damped and braced. I am including pictures and the frequency response graph. It looks quite flat - They are 1/12 octave smoothed. Would love comments and suggestions and questions. Also, have made a modification. Will post pictures of that soon.
Best,
Atto
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
So, every time you audition "tower" speakers, do they sound terribly wrong to you?
I went to each of the higher end audio boutique stores in Manhattan and auditioned many types of speakers. The ones which were by far the best were the Madrigal Revel Salon Ultimas (1st generation). All the other brands I auditioned such as B&W sounded comparatively inferior. (I should qualify that and say that those speakers were in their own listening room with some room treatments beyond what was done for most of the other speakers). They were carefully positioned and the room was setup much better than those with most of the other speakers, which were variously located around larger rooms with multiple other speakers. So, of course that comparison is not very fair - but, I still think it is significant that our most preferred speakers across the wide array we auditioned were tower speakers, not stand mounted).
Additionally I participated in listening tests multiple times spanning a couple years in our "listening lab" while I was working at a speaker company and we unanimously agreed that it sounded subjectively "better" whenever we used methods such as a low mounted woofer to "fill in" the FBC.
It's almost always possible to adjust the design such that you don't get the perception of "additional mouths" from a lower location when doing so. It is, of course, important to maintain a decent height for the tweeter and relatively low level HF output from lower woofers to maintain proper localization.
And yes, of course this too:
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Hi,
Smallish speakers mounted quite high, or towers do not
exhibit a deep null due to the amplitude differences of
the path lengths, see lots of in room measurements.
Concocting "facts" to suit your opinion helps nobody.
rgds, sreten.
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What do you mean by "quite high"?
I'm talking about the clear and present null characteristic of "bookshelf" speakers mounted on speaker stands caused by the reflected sound which is the frequency at which you will find the reflected sound off the floor is approximately 180 degrees out of phase with the direct sound do to the increased distance. It's not uncommon to find a broad and deep dip at around ~200Hz which can be significantly reduced (as you say) by utilizing a design such as a "tower" speaker with a low woofer which has a high enough frequency low pass filter.
What fact did you presume I was "concocting"?
I don't believe you concocted the dip, but I am curious as a deep null requires a similar level from both sources and response drops off at 6dB with a doubling of distance.
At 200Hz, most listening rooms will themselves be dominating the response. I appreciate that this is a broad attitude, and the floor dip does itself amount to a room mode. Still, a grey area.
At 200Hz, most listening rooms will themselves be dominating the response. I appreciate that this is a broad attitude, and the floor dip does itself amount to a room mode. Still, a grey area.
Hi,
Your first statement is incorrect and concocted.
There is no evidence of it in averaged room responses.
rgds, sreten.
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I had a pair of ER18DXT by MarkK which is similar to Idunn. Here measurements of it placed on a stand with tweeter roughly 80cm off ground, measuring distance 150cm.
Floor bounce (and ceiling+ back wall) makes a dip even at 1000ms gating and also in RTA (not saved). My room is quite large and ceiling is tilted so other bounces have minimal influence.
ER18 is a fine midwoofer and a 2,5-way tower can be tuned around 35Hz if one does not play crazy loud! But a 4-way with a built in subwoofer and dsp-control is superior to it!
Floor bounce (and ceiling+ back wall) makes a dip even at 1000ms gating and also in RTA (not saved). My room is quite large and ceiling is tilted so other bounces have minimal influence.
ER18 is a fine midwoofer and a 2,5-way tower can be tuned around 35Hz if one does not play crazy loud! But a 4-way with a built in subwoofer and dsp-control is superior to it!
Attachments
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Perhaps, and perhaps. But apples and oranges. Certainly if one made a difference, the other would as well, except maybe by coincidence.
So maybe the room dominance moots the point anyway, as your second quote alludes to?
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No, you are wrong [at least your first statement, and somewhat the second statement]. What do you mean by averaged room responses? Taking measurements from various locations about the room? In that case then of course you would be correct, but that's not the point at all, not what I'm talking about.
I guess you're not used to being wrong, but in this case it's clear - it's quite easy to measure the null and it's often not insignificant.
Of course, in some rooms in many positions, you will not see it. But if you're using bookshelf speakers mounted on stands and you sit approximately centered between the L+R speakers it is not unlikely for that floor bounce cancellation to be both the most relevant node/reflection, but also to have a clear negative effect on the perceived sound quality in an A/B test with and without the null.
It wasn't concocted, it was something I heard before I knew about it. By fiddling with the sub woofer, changing positions of various speakers and adjusting crossover frequency knobs I filled it in without knowing what I was doing. I asked my friend for a second opinion and what he thought was going on - he explained it to me. Later experiments, listening tests, and many measurements since then confirmed it solidly.
This friend of mine is somebody who dropped out of MIT to join the audio industry about 40 years ago and he can calculate the frequency and depth of these calculations without even using a scrap of paper if you just give him the distance measurements. He can also calculate passive crossovers in his head which will most likely give better results than typical commercial speakers. Of course, the purpose of that is just a rough starting point, he uses tons of measurements including square wave/impulse for time alignment of the mid & tweeter.
I've seen you commenting on this board for years and expect you to be wrong very rarely, my friend is one of the few people who's word I would take over yours and I don't think anybody alive in the industry knows more, or has worked with more respected long-term industry experts than he has.
In most listening rooms that I'm aware of the floor is the closest boundary and has the most effect on frequencies typically covered by a smallish bookshelf speaker's woofer. If your woofer is closer to the back wall and/or your room does not have a high ceiling that will change the scenario, of course. I think the room that I was in had about 12 foot high ceilings. When the room has ~8' high ceilings and you're sitting about 1/3 of the way up from the ceiling to the floor, and, you use un-gated measurements then of course, it could be next to impossible to see the FBC null?
Look at Juhazi's measurement (and many other in room measurements of 2-way stand mounted systems you'll find from a wide variety of people on the forums) and it's often easy to see a quite clear and deep null at close to 200 Hz!
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