Hello
Im planning on a 3-way, all Seas front-speaker.
And this is what I'm thinking so far:
* Wide baffle, 50-55cm.
* Active bass, xo about 250Hz because of bafflestep.
* CA26RFX or L26RFX/P in bassreflex.
* One or two CA18RNX as mid
* 27TFFC or 27TDFC as tweeter.
* Passive xo mid/tweet at 2000-2500Hz.
I'm planning for a full 5.1-system here, thats why the CA18 and not a smaller unit are used as mid. The other 3 speakers will be two way, with CA18 as mid/bass.
I had big hopes for the L26, and purchased them first. But in a closed boxed (20L & 50L tried) they just meet x-max to easy.
In 50L bassreflex this is better, still the enclosure are a little to small for the driver.
WAF demand a nicer looking driver, more like the paper-mid.
So I've bought the CA26 also. They are now playing in 50L bassreflex, looks! and sound good, but the L26 played deeper.
On the other hand, CA26 has better sensivity.
If I use the CA26, maybe I should use two CA18? It looks perfect in Bassbox.................
This just makes a new qt (if I use 2xCA18), should I go for TMMW or MTMW?
And in the end (where my brain is frying) the qt about waveguide are popping up also...........
Please help me out!
Im planning on a 3-way, all Seas front-speaker.
And this is what I'm thinking so far:
* Wide baffle, 50-55cm.
* Active bass, xo about 250Hz because of bafflestep.
* CA26RFX or L26RFX/P in bassreflex.
* One or two CA18RNX as mid
* 27TFFC or 27TDFC as tweeter.
* Passive xo mid/tweet at 2000-2500Hz.
I'm planning for a full 5.1-system here, thats why the CA18 and not a smaller unit are used as mid. The other 3 speakers will be two way, with CA18 as mid/bass.
I had big hopes for the L26, and purchased them first. But in a closed boxed (20L & 50L tried) they just meet x-max to easy.
In 50L bassreflex this is better, still the enclosure are a little to small for the driver.
WAF demand a nicer looking driver, more like the paper-mid.
So I've bought the CA26 also. They are now playing in 50L bassreflex, looks! and sound good, but the L26 played deeper.
On the other hand, CA26 has better sensivity.
If I use the CA26, maybe I should use two CA18? It looks perfect in Bassbox.................
This just makes a new qt (if I use 2xCA18), should I go for TMMW or MTMW?
And in the end (where my brain is frying) the qt about waveguide are popping up also...........
Please help me out!
Ahh, I see, you want no small midrange
If you go fore double 6" it might be better to use one of them as a 0.5way, and going active you could cross the woofer lower and still have BSC, but might be more tricky
But you have a sub ... have you thought about using triple 6" in a 2.5way... that way you could have the same driver and xo in the whole setup
using the same driver doesnt result in the same sound with different xo, one being 3way and others being 2way - different design=different sound
Just thoughts!
If you go fore double 6" it might be better to use one of them as a 0.5way, and going active you could cross the woofer lower and still have BSC, but might be more tricky
But you have a sub ... have you thought about using triple 6" in a 2.5way... that way you could have the same driver and xo in the whole setup
using the same driver doesnt result in the same sound with different xo, one being 3way and others being 2way - different design=different sound
Just thoughts!
Well I agree that a smaller mid would be better, but even if its difficult to get the same sound from the same drivers with different xo and different cabinets. I think it would be very, VERY hard to get it with different drivers. And smaller drivers than 7" in the center and surround speakers are not an issue!
When I simulate 2xCA18 and the CA26 in Bassbox pro, they are very simular in the 50-500 Hz range. And for the passive xo, the biggest problem is the centerspeaker, because of its horisontal baffle. But that problem would be the same, even if I used 2 or 3 CA18 in the front speakers.
I know that one CA 18 works fine, but will two be even better?
Both CA26 and 27TFFC has a 91/92dB sens. CA18 has 88dB......?
When I simulate 2xCA18 and the CA26 in Bassbox pro, they are very simular in the 50-500 Hz range. And for the passive xo, the biggest problem is the centerspeaker, because of its horisontal baffle. But that problem would be the same, even if I used 2 or 3 CA18 in the front speakers.
I know that one CA 18 works fine, but will two be even better?
Both CA26 and 27TFFC has a 91/92dB sens. CA18 has 88dB......?
In your first post you write..."active bass, xo about 250hz because of bafflestep"
I thought you knew about BSC, but obviously dont
With a 92db woofer and 88db mid you get perfect BSC.. actually the 88db mid might be slightly more than 88db when used as a mid only ... and the woofer may not be 92db at all ... so maybe not enough BSC after all, and in the end you actually may have to attenuate the mid
A lot of people have many theories how to get good sound and what is important, and I believe that its true that all the speakers in a surround setup should have the same nature ... but it dont really mean nothing if you dont have the skills to execute it
I thought you knew about BSC, but obviously dont
With a 92db woofer and 88db mid you get perfect BSC.. actually the 88db mid might be slightly more than 88db when used as a mid only ... and the woofer may not be 92db at all ... so maybe not enough BSC after all, and in the end you actually may have to attenuate the mid
A lot of people have many theories how to get good sound and what is important, and I believe that its true that all the speakers in a surround setup should have the same nature ... but it dont really mean nothing if you dont have the skills to execute it
Have you looked at nonlinear distortion data for the CA18RNX? Look at here: http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html
Compare the CA18RNX and the new ER18RNX. Distortions of all types, espeically odd order ones, are significantly lower for the ER18RNX than for the CA18RNX in the 200 to 1000 Hz range. The new ER's cone is basically paper and wouldn't look bad with CA26RFX.
I think the driver choice of 27TDFC, ER18RNX, and CA26RFX is excellent. No doubt they will be great speakers if XO's are well designed.
L26 will give a bit cleaner bass, I guess, but CA26 will give a better look with other drivers.
I don't think you'll need two midrange drivers. You'll lose the woofer's sensitivity due to baffle step, anyway.
-Jay
P.S. I'd use 1.5 - 1.6 kHz as a mid/tweet xo point. The TDFC can handle this. It will give better system harmonic distortions.
Compare the CA18RNX and the new ER18RNX. Distortions of all types, espeically odd order ones, are significantly lower for the ER18RNX than for the CA18RNX in the 200 to 1000 Hz range. The new ER's cone is basically paper and wouldn't look bad with CA26RFX.
I think the driver choice of 27TDFC, ER18RNX, and CA26RFX is excellent. No doubt they will be great speakers if XO's are well designed.
L26 will give a bit cleaner bass, I guess, but CA26 will give a better look with other drivers.
I don't think you'll need two midrange drivers. You'll lose the woofer's sensitivity due to baffle step, anyway.
-Jay
P.S. I'd use 1.5 - 1.6 kHz as a mid/tweet xo point. The TDFC can handle this. It will give better system harmonic distortions.
Yes I know what baffle step is, and yes I wrote active bass.
If I used passive xo all the way I agree with you.
But with active xo and amps, I can use gain to adjust the the BSC (I hope).
I want the extra SPL, without the extra distortion, thats why I wondering about 2 mids.
If I have the skills? No I dont, (thats why I'm asking!) but I'm planning to get there......
I bought the CA18 before ER18 was launched, if not I would have bought the ER18 instead.
(Puh its hard to write english, hopefully someone understand what I mean........
)
If I used passive xo all the way I agree with you.
But with active xo and amps, I can use gain to adjust the the BSC (I hope).
I want the extra SPL, without the extra distortion, thats why I wondering about 2 mids.
If I have the skills? No I dont, (thats why I'm asking!) but I'm planning to get there......
I bought the CA18 before ER18 was launched, if not I would have bought the ER18 instead.
(Puh its hard to write english, hopefully someone understand what I mean........
)Norcad said:Yes I know what baffle step is, and yes I wrote active bass.
If I used passive xo all the way I agree with you.
But with active xo and amps, I can use gain to adjust the the BSC (I hope).
I want the extra SPL, without the extra distortion, thats why I wondering about 2 mids.
If I have the skills? No I dont, (thats why I'm asking!) but I'm planning to get there......
I bought the CA18 before ER18 was launched, if not I would have bought the ER18 instead.
(Puh its hard to write english, hopefully someone understand what I mean........
Hi,
BSC affects max SPL just as much as it effects frequency response.
Increasing bass gain will not increase maximum SPL. The distortion
and levels to worry about are generally in the bass, not midrange.
/sreten.I see now what you hope about woofer gain control
well, if your subamp has exstra gain of say +6db it might work ... otherwise your gain controll will only attenuate your woofer to less SPL
Another issue with the use of active instead of passive is better controll and more tight bass, which you might experience as less bass ... well, it depends on other things as well
well, if your subamp has exstra gain of say +6db it might work ... otherwise your gain controll will only attenuate your woofer to less SPL
Another issue with the use of active instead of passive is better controll and more tight bass, which you might experience as less bass ... well, it depends on other things as well
Thank you for your reply, and please continue!
Maybe its overkill with two mids, and maybe it makes the xo to difficult, and I'm not so sure about MTM's because of the small sweetspot at least some of them have trouble with.
My idea was to get headroom for the mids, and be sure that they could handel max power and SPL without to much dist.
I thought that the dist in midrange is much, much more important than in the lower freq.
I will do the passive crossover work myself, the active will be the surround receivers work!
I have a Behringer ECM8000 mic and M-Audio PreUSB SC, and are playing with Speaker Workshop, Arta and LspCad. I have a little trouble getting the impedance measurements right, so maybe I need another soundcard.
Maybe its overkill with two mids, and maybe it makes the xo to difficult, and I'm not so sure about MTM's because of the small sweetspot at least some of them have trouble with.
My idea was to get headroom for the mids, and be sure that they could handel max power and SPL without to much dist.
I thought that the dist in midrange is much, much more important than in the lower freq.
I will do the passive crossover work myself, the active will be the surround receivers work!
I have a Behringer ECM8000 mic and M-Audio PreUSB SC, and are playing with Speaker Workshop, Arta and LspCad. I have a little trouble getting the impedance measurements right, so maybe I need another soundcard.
Uh Oh, you use a surround receiver to cross the mid with the woofer?
As far as I know, a surround receiver's subwoofer output is mono. If you cross your woofer at 250 Hz, then you will lose stereo under 250 Hz! Norcad, do I miss something here?
Another concern is that low and high pass filters in most surround receivers have fixed slope roll offs. In this case, you'll need to be careful to make sure the acoustic phases of mid and woofer are aligned well.
In general, I don't think a crossover in a surround receiver is adequate for your design.
As far as I know, a surround receiver's subwoofer output is mono. If you cross your woofer at 250 Hz, then you will lose stereo under 250 Hz! Norcad, do I miss something here?
Another concern is that low and high pass filters in most surround receivers have fixed slope roll offs. In this case, you'll need to be careful to make sure the acoustic phases of mid and woofer are aligned well.
In general, I don't think a crossover in a surround receiver is adequate for your design.
As good neighbours we can deliver the goods
http://www.groundsound.com/products.html
BTW, about one or two mids .... your amp might be much happier with 8ohm load rather than 4ohm
http://www.groundsound.com/products.html
BTW, about one or two mids .... your amp might be much happier with 8ohm load rather than 4ohm
I'm planning closed mid enclosure about 5 liters (qtc 0,7), but I read somewhere that CA18 had better mid in a vented enclosure. I havent tested it myself yet.
The big smile after the receiver meant(?) that it was a joke!
I'm starting with a Behringer, modified by its earlier owner.
We dont need to talk about that, yet.............
Someone think its crap, someone think its good. For me, I got to take one step at the time.
First of all: L26 or CA26?
then: one or two CA18? - closed or vented?
Then I can start building the cabinets.
After that I can play the whole winter with the passive xo
So next summer we can talk about active xo!
Interesting tinitus!
The big smile after the receiver meant(?) that it was a joke!
I'm starting with a Behringer, modified by its earlier owner.
We dont need to talk about that, yet.............
Someone think its crap, someone think its good. For me, I got to take one step at the time.
First of all: L26 or CA26?
then: one or two CA18? - closed or vented?
Then I can start building the cabinets.
After that I can play the whole winter with the passive xo
So next summer we can talk about active xo!
Interesting tinitus!
tinitus said:Using a 18cm mid can be hard enough to get right, but using two seems like even more trouble
We are thinking the same
Background:
The last to years I have used a 5.1 system with Epos ELS3 and a DIY sub with Peerless XLS12.
This is my fourth 5.1 speaker system, and the only one with similar sound all around. I'm using it to listen to music also.
But because of WAF, the sub is placed near the sweetspot, and is to easy to locate when listen to music.
The ELS3 has a very good midrange, but no bass and little clearity in the tweet. With 5" they also give up a little to easy, and the centerspeaker struggles now and then.
So I want to build frontspeakers who can play music, and center and surround speakers that has a similar sound.
When planning this frontspeakers I'm trying to think music, and not movie. But still remember that they are moviespeakers!
The goal is: Better than ELS3 !
I don't think two CA18s will cause any problem, if your receiver/amp can handle low impedance. And if you already have enough drivers to do MTM, why not?
And as I said, target an XO point of 1.5 - 1.6 kHz between mid and tweeter. According to my experience, the TDFC has no problem handling it and it will help reduce the system's nonlinear distortions in the 1 kHz to 2 kHz range because the CA18's distortion in this range is rather high.
-Jay
And as I said, target an XO point of 1.5 - 1.6 kHz between mid and tweeter. According to my experience, the TDFC has no problem handling it and it will help reduce the system's nonlinear distortions in the 1 kHz to 2 kHz range because the CA18's distortion in this range is rather high.
-Jay
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