Yep. The operative word with those optical cartridges is transparency. Kind of like the diy dac I mentioned in at least one sense, once you hear either one in your system you will never want to go back.
However, regarding DS Audio in particular I will say the optical preamps DS Audio sells will work with any of their cartridges. IOW, the better preamps make any of the cartridges sound better. Which is why it might be worthwhile to design your own discrete preamp to their basic specs.
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^ did you build your own optical preamp?
I seem to recall they had a application note describing the circuit.
I seem to recall they had a application note describing the circuit.
"Concert venues aren’t just big, fancy rooms—they’re designed to make music sound incredible. Every curve, panel, and surface is carefully crafted to enhance sound distribution, blending notes seamlessly into a rich, immersive experience." This part is probably the least informed of that article, but there are many other problems with what they're saying. Most concert venues (in fact, almost all of them) are not designed for good sound and have as many or more problems than your living room.
My friend and I made a fully discrete one, but friend wants to keep it private for possible commercial purposes.
And, yes, there is a version 2 app note. IIRC the original version had the lowest pole too low.
For every Orchestra Hall at Symphony Center there is a Hampton Coliseum and a Tucson Community Center. And on and on and on...
I'm still lost on the "So what." Per Shannon, information has entropy. Recordings are a copy of the original so they will never be the original. But how many can just pop down to the Kimmel Center for an afternoon of Beethoven any afternoon they wish?
I'm still lost on the "So what." Per Shannon, information has entropy. Recordings are a copy of the original so they will never be the original. But how many can just pop down to the Kimmel Center for an afternoon of Beethoven any afternoon they wish?
^ The comment was very sweeping....
I proved it wrong. We've been to two of those.... I hope to be in Vienna and Berlin before I kick the bucket.
I proved it wrong. We've been to two of those.... I hope to be in Vienna and Berlin before I kick the bucket.
Are you sure that they're designed for good sound? I see the first one has some sound treatment up top, non-linear walls and seems to be good for classical performances, but that's not the majority. There are certainly a few that are well designed for classical stuff, but the majority of venues are not designed well for sound. I've done shows in hundreds of theaters, arenas and stadiums around the world and many of them are terrible. Some are good. A few are great, but I haven't encountered many that have considerable acoustic considerations in the design. The hockey arenas in Canada have been removing all of the sound treatment so the crowds sound louder at Hockey games and now our shows are just dismal.
I do see that there is a massive difference between venues designed for classical music (which is a minority of them) and venues used for rock, pop, etc. So that could be where we aren't seeing eye to eye on this. I've done rock shows in these classical music venues and it's dismal. I'm sure it's great for classical stuff.
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Actually, the first one, the Segerstrom Concert Hall is state of the art.
It's actually a box within a box. If you see the "blue" wall behind the side boxes... those are the openings from the inner to the other chamber. They tune the whole thing for different types of performances. It's neither bright nor dark, it is indeed a perfect listening environment. Currently , it is likely the best listening hall in the World as it was design after extensive analysis of Western European Halls.
They don't record much there because of the union dues kill it and there is no "resident World Class" orchestra. The LA resides up in LA and they are expensive and unionized. BTW, the Vienna Phil will be there next month for two nights but I screwed up and didn't get tickets... Shitsky! There are some left.... but they are pricey and wife says no.... well, I might just get them.
It also has great parking and is "freeway close", important in SoCal. We can be in and out in from our garage to our seats there in 20 minutes.
The other two are classical designs from the Old World. We've been to the Lyceum, and I've read about and heard recordings made in the Opera House. I assure they are absolutely world class listening halls. as well. Just a tiny bit little bit darker than Costa Mesa but the sound is spectacular.
Note how they are all tall, rather narrow and long, with lots of broken up areas and reflective/absorbing materials to even out the echoes. There are no standing waves and the low organ notes get to develop fully. There is nothing like listening to low level bass notes from the timpani and the contra basses. People who buy sub-woofers for their home theaters have no clue what real, clean bass sounds like.
I don't go to rock concerts in stadiums or arenas. Actually, we haven't gone to an "arena" rock concert since Billy Idol in the early 80s. Although we have gone to rock concerts in Hollywood venues. Smaller, more intimate and actually very good sounding.
Oh, the Santa Barbara outdoor amphitheater is awesome too.
Living in a big metropolis has distinctive advantages when it comes to live music.
It's actually a box within a box. If you see the "blue" wall behind the side boxes... those are the openings from the inner to the other chamber. They tune the whole thing for different types of performances. It's neither bright nor dark, it is indeed a perfect listening environment. Currently , it is likely the best listening hall in the World as it was design after extensive analysis of Western European Halls.
They don't record much there because of the union dues kill it and there is no "resident World Class" orchestra. The LA resides up in LA and they are expensive and unionized. BTW, the Vienna Phil will be there next month for two nights but I screwed up and didn't get tickets... Shitsky! There are some left.... but they are pricey and wife says no.... well, I might just get them.
It also has great parking and is "freeway close", important in SoCal. We can be in and out in from our garage to our seats there in 20 minutes.
The other two are classical designs from the Old World. We've been to the Lyceum, and I've read about and heard recordings made in the Opera House. I assure they are absolutely world class listening halls. as well. Just a tiny bit little bit darker than Costa Mesa but the sound is spectacular.
Note how they are all tall, rather narrow and long, with lots of broken up areas and reflective/absorbing materials to even out the echoes. There are no standing waves and the low organ notes get to develop fully. There is nothing like listening to low level bass notes from the timpani and the contra basses. People who buy sub-woofers for their home theaters have no clue what real, clean bass sounds like.
I don't go to rock concerts in stadiums or arenas. Actually, we haven't gone to an "arena" rock concert since Billy Idol in the early 80s. Although we have gone to rock concerts in Hollywood venues. Smaller, more intimate and actually very good sounding.
Oh, the Santa Barbara outdoor amphitheater is awesome too.
Living in a big metropolis has distinctive advantages when it comes to live music.
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I’ll add to that fire…
I have been to many concert halls and depending on where you are seated, your experience varies greatly. Too close is not good either.
The sound waves that reach you tend to be more visceral in all cases, though. But, some instruments may be emphasized due to your positioning, etc.
It’s a different experience altogether. Like drinking from a firehose is different from sipping from a glass, even if it’s ambrosia in both cases.
I have been to many concert halls and depending on where you are seated, your experience varies greatly. Too close is not good either.
The sound waves that reach you tend to be more visceral in all cases, though. But, some instruments may be emphasized due to your positioning, etc.
It’s a different experience altogether. Like drinking from a firehose is different from sipping from a glass, even if it’s ambrosia in both cases.
Yeah. That's where we are differing. Classical venues are totally different. And that's awesome to hear how well designed they are for that. I've done shows at the Santa Barbara Bowl and it's pretty good but there is a strict DB limit because it's too close to a bunch of rich peoples' houses. I recently did a show at SoFi stadium in LA. We were calling it "Lowfi" because it sounds so bad. It's literally impossible to get anything to sound good there with a PA system. So many venues are like that. Sound treatment is incredibly expensive for an arena and interferes with the crowd noise. Plus, it's just so much reflective cement and metal. There are a few that sound pretty good. There are some other theaters that sound good for rock shows, but the majority are pretty bad and plagued with acoustic problems. Again, this is when we're trying to amplify stuff so it's totally different. But I have a lot more problems distributing sound in these venues than I would in a living room.
We heard Kenny Loggins in the 80s in Santa Barbara. Sat about 50 feet from the stage. The sound didn't have to be loud at all. The PA was very small and sounded just perfect. It was a brilliant PA implementation.
Also, I used to do bluegrass PA up in Santa Barbara and up to SLO. We'd do it outdoors or in small venues... never cranked it up loud, with small systems, just reinforcement... awesome sounding.
I'd guess the difference is in the purpose of the PA. In some halls, like a made to order concert hall, you don't need no PA... in some other places, you might need a small PA for reinforcement... stuff like the mandolin and the singing voice -for non opera singers-...
Rock,. is a different story. In small venues, The Whiskey A GoGo, The Palladium, a simple double stack of Marshalls will do fine, the drum kit won't need anything... just you, the band, 200 other happy people and some good cold beer and loud enough.
IF course then you got the Punk Clubs of the 80s. Good sounding places, relatively small and LOUD. Good sounding and LOUD. That's an interesting combination. Did I say, LOUD and CLEAR?
Stadiums, Arenas? Just pure greed. Unless you got the Dead's Wall Of Sound.
Also, I used to do bluegrass PA up in Santa Barbara and up to SLO. We'd do it outdoors or in small venues... never cranked it up loud, with small systems, just reinforcement... awesome sounding.
I'd guess the difference is in the purpose of the PA. In some halls, like a made to order concert hall, you don't need no PA... in some other places, you might need a small PA for reinforcement... stuff like the mandolin and the singing voice -for non opera singers-...
Rock,. is a different story. In small venues, The Whiskey A GoGo, The Palladium, a simple double stack of Marshalls will do fine, the drum kit won't need anything... just you, the band, 200 other happy people and some good cold beer and loud enough.
IF course then you got the Punk Clubs of the 80s. Good sounding places, relatively small and LOUD. Good sounding and LOUD. That's an interesting combination. Did I say, LOUD and CLEAR?
Stadiums, Arenas? Just pure greed. Unless you got the Dead's Wall Of Sound.
The best halls only change the nature soundstage based on where you sit.
If you sit close up you hear a much deeper relative soundstage with a bigger difference between the strings up front and the brass in the back. You hear each instrument separately.
If you sit further back, the entire presentation becomes more homogeneous.
In our case we prefer mid orchestra, center.
But in neither case do you hear abnormal standing waves. The sound is smooth.
For opera, though, nothing like the Middle Of The Front Row.
Recordings, listening to live music, choral singing (in things like Beethoven's 9th symphony among others), I've had all three kinds of experiences. I never have thought that the sound coming from speakers is anything like live, (and WAY different than performing it) but that is OK because I don't expect that. They're just different, and should be enjoyed as such.
Most music recordings do not sound like live performances because there was no live performance. D'Oh! (slaps forehead).
On recordings of the space in which a musical performance is taking place, Maggies do a reasonably credible job of reproducing the sound of the space.
The last live orchestra I have heard was an elementary school orchestra. 😉 I have heard small ensembles, sometimes un-amplified, at outdoor events.
Ed
On recordings of the space in which a musical performance is taking place, Maggies do a reasonably credible job of reproducing the sound of the space.
The last live orchestra I have heard was an elementary school orchestra. 😉 I have heard small ensembles, sometimes un-amplified, at outdoor events.
Ed
A while ago I recorded some live performances with "binaural" electret microphone capsules, i.e. the microphones plugged in my ear. Listening back via headphones was a real life-like experience. Listening via loudspeakers was not so good, a kind of sound chaos.
Recordings intended to be listened to via loudspeakers need a different (mixture of close + ambience) miking technique, and they never will sound as the real performance, listened by your own ears. It can be pretty close, at most.
Recordings intended to be listened to via loudspeakers need a different (mixture of close + ambience) miking technique, and they never will sound as the real performance, listened by your own ears. It can be pretty close, at most.
Concerning dynamics, tonality and correct impulse response (=correct time domain) you can have today perfect speakers.
Maybe because of room interaction you won't get 100% same image like in a life concert with big orchestra, but technology today delivers all that is necessary to give the right sound.
I have recordings of single instruments I made extra for being able to develop loudspeakers with dsp correction and you simply cannot hear any difference if the speaker is done right, playing the same instruments at the same time with their recording on the speakers.
Time coherent PA loudspeakers are available
Maybe because of room interaction you won't get 100% same image like in a life concert with big orchestra, but technology today delivers all that is necessary to give the right sound.
I have recordings of single instruments I made extra for being able to develop loudspeakers with dsp correction and you simply cannot hear any difference if the speaker is done right, playing the same instruments at the same time with their recording on the speakers.
Time coherent PA loudspeakers are available
Sweeping but very much true as it was a caveated statement, not absolute. For every actual designed concert hall, there's a tonne of bars, civic centers, school auditoriums etc that serve. As you have pointed out, well designed concert halls are the exception. Even when they are designed by professionals for the intended purpose, results not guaranteed. The Walt Disney Concert Hall was an interesting endeavor.
But, again, so what to the linked article?
I'm a bit surprised that no one has caught the source of this latest "brouhaha" (as if we've never had to wade through this argument before):
Notice any conflict of interest?
I actually detest headphones for hi-fi listening. Eardrum bounce destroys the soundstage.
Chris
Notice any conflict of interest?
I actually detest headphones for hi-fi listening. Eardrum bounce destroys the soundstage.
Chris
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