jacco vermeulen,
You, possibly, not understand me. I won't build amps from post 1 even if I found schematic. I can't listen all of this amp to choose one for me. So I need schematic to, possibly, predict sound quality. Another words, to sort most of amp, choose best of them for schematic and then listen and choose cost effective. I search not only Hi-End schematic, but also PRO-series and DIY-project.
Sorry for bad English.
lumanauw,
Thanks.
wbr, Taifun
You, possibly, not understand me. I won't build amps from post 1 even if I found schematic. I can't listen all of this amp to choose one for me. So I need schematic to, possibly, predict sound quality. Another words, to sort most of amp, choose best of them for schematic and then listen and choose cost effective. I search not only Hi-End schematic, but also PRO-series and DIY-project.
Sorry for bad English.
lumanauw,
Thanks.
wbr, Taifun
Taifun said:
Taifun,
that is exactly where you go astray.
Plinius makes amplifiers because they have customers that favor the sound of these amplifiers.
Meletzky's 8011 uses comparable output devices to the ones of the Plinius but their amplifier designing philosophy is totally different, MBL has customers that favor the sound of their amps.
You'll find out which you favor by listening to a bunch, not by showing some schematics to engineering types.
And even then you have to figure out how much effort you will need to put into constructing it.
Parts like the Sanken output devices you see on the picture of the Plinius SA-250 posted by David i have or i can get for $2 the piece. Whether you are able to find those big Sanken types like 2SC2921, 2SC2922, 2SC3264, 2SC3857 or 2SC3858, it is likely that it will take you much more effort and money than me.
My advice is not to get into such a project unless you know exactly yourself what you want, and you have the skills and resources to do it.
Here you can see some regular prices for these parts:
www.ampslab.com/components_power.htm
Your engineer friends can't tell you what kind of sound you like.
Your English is fine.
Hi, Taifun,
If you are going to DIY an audio amp, just do it with the simple/most likely to be built. Searching in this site will tell you clues which one you are going to built.
Many years ago I have attitude just like you. Gathering the "best" schematic (according to my eyes) studying a part here, studying a part there and hoping I will get the ultimate audio power amp.
It sounds bad.
An amp is a whole design. You cannot combine all the best part (according to your eyes) and result in better amp from each original design.
To relax you : amps are like food. There is no #1 tasting food. Each is good, for the ones who likes it. An amp that is built with your own hand (evenmore if you got soldering-iron burn in your hand by yourself or accidently cut your finger during construction) it will sound better to you
Don't worry. The sound quality have little corelation with amp's price. I've heard many expensive amps/system and many DIY projects and I can tell you many DIY amps sounds better than 5digit USD commercial amps
If you are going to DIY an audio amp, just do it with the simple/most likely to be built. Searching in this site will tell you clues which one you are going to built.
Many years ago I have attitude just like you. Gathering the "best" schematic (according to my eyes) studying a part here, studying a part there and hoping I will get the ultimate audio power amp.
It sounds bad.
An amp is a whole design. You cannot combine all the best part (according to your eyes) and result in better amp from each original design.
To relax you : amps are like food. There is no #1 tasting food. Each is good, for the ones who likes it. An amp that is built with your own hand (evenmore if you got soldering-iron burn in your hand by yourself or accidently cut your finger during construction) it will sound better to you
Don't worry. The sound quality have little corelation with amp's price. I've heard many expensive amps/system and many DIY projects and I can tell you many DIY amps sounds better than 5digit USD commercial amps
jacco vermeulen,
My friend say about ART SLA-1: In that schematic output stage on bipolar transistors, but if change them to MOSFET we can't hear different, because schematic is very bad.
He also don't like Bryston's schematic and many others. He named them classical.
About 20 years ago he compare bipolar vs mosfet transistors in amp. Than he like mosfet transistors on output stage. I also like mosfet. Two reference schematic that I found (one I'm found and one found my friend) are very different and one have bipolar and another have mosfet on output stage. THD in they also different: 0,002 with bipolar and 0,03 with mosfet. Both of them don't use error correction circuit. Both amp of them cost less than 1k$ on ebay.
On Russian forums of hi-fi I know some members who listen almost of these amp in post 1. I trust them. Engeneer is not one of them. So I want show him schematics of these amp and compare their opinion after listen with opinion engineer. 1 result coincided. And then I try choose cost effective.
Also on our forum some members said that ART SLA-2 is very good amp. It cost about 300$, but they compare them with amps cost more than 1k$. And they think he equal to amp cost more than 1k$.
So I also try to find schematic for ART SLA-2.
I think there is a serial amp that sound like tube, but also is transparent, powerful, dynamic, with small THD. I think I find these amp but I want to check other amp. I also wait this amp on ebay.
lumanauw,
jacco vermeulen, lumanauw,
Thank for answer.
wbr, Taifun
OK, philosophy different, but they, possibly, sound very similar. Are you listening them in one setup? Design and philosophy I'am not intrested. And schematics of them, possibly, are classical. So why I cost more for classical schematic of 1980 years? I buy seconhand with similar sound. If not I try to listen and analyze.
I like mosfet on output stage and without error correction circuit. That is enough?
Constructing amp possible if I don't find serial amp that can be equal of DIY project. Some problem that I don't find DIY project that can equal for two serial amp that I find. Both of them now are not building. So, you are right:
My friend say about ART SLA-1: In that schematic output stage on bipolar transistors, but if change them to MOSFET we can't hear different, because schematic is very bad.
He also don't like Bryston's schematic and many others. He named them classical.
About 20 years ago he compare bipolar vs mosfet transistors in amp. Than he like mosfet transistors on output stage. I also like mosfet. Two reference schematic that I found (one I'm found and one found my friend) are very different and one have bipolar and another have mosfet on output stage. THD in they also different: 0,002 with bipolar and 0,03 with mosfet. Both of them don't use error correction circuit. Both amp of them cost less than 1k$ on ebay.
On Russian forums of hi-fi I know some members who listen almost of these amp in post 1. I trust them. Engeneer is not one of them. So I want show him schematics of these amp and compare their opinion after listen with opinion engineer. 1 result coincided. And then I try choose cost effective.
Also on our forum some members said that ART SLA-2 is very good amp. It cost about 300$, but they compare them with amps cost more than 1k$. And they think he equal to amp cost more than 1k$.
So I also try to find schematic for ART SLA-2.
Yes, first he said me a similar phrase. Do you see schematic of Technics SE-A3?
I think there is a serial amp that sound like tube, but also is transparent, powerful, dynamic, with small THD. I think I find these amp but I want to check other amp. I also wait this amp on ebay.
lumanauw,
My friend think that SE-A3 is Hi-End amp of 1970-80 in Japan without modern analog. But SE-A3 in output stage have bipolar transistors. So he don't like bipolar. He not search amp, but intresting in "originaly" schematic. I also show him some DIY schematic from these forum. All of them wasn't equal for two references. May I bad search?
Ok, if I so can't find good amp for myself, what I must do? Buy all amps in alphabetical order and listen? I must sort amp to economy my money. How I can sort amp? What amp you have?
Of course, I understand that.
Ok, I don't know taste of apple. You can't interpritate me what taste apple have. So I need to eat apple. But I also don't know taste of bananas. They are both fruits. Question. How many different sounding amps? I think it mostly two in "right" schematic. Different is only in output stage. May I mistake?
I read this opinion in this and my forums. And I agree with this, but I intrested for technical part of amp.
I agree with you.
Please, tell about these DIY project.
jacco vermeulen, lumanauw,
Thank for answer.
wbr, Taifun
What is it that your friend interested in? What kind of schematic? Sometimes the "good looking/hi-tech" schematic does not sounds as good as a less interesting one (to the eyes).
Well, you cannot escape this. You cannot suddenly make a very good amp (worse : you cannot even BUY the best amp at 1 single purchase). You will have to make alot of ccts (if you are a DIYer) or buy quite alot of different kind of power amps (if you are a consumer). You will loose time and money before you get what you wanted. No way you can advoid this.
Good side : Our ear is like rubber. It can adjust its opinion about 1 sound source (power amps, speakers, etc) in just minutes. You CANNOT say that one amp sounds good or bad IF you haven't heard another amp that sounds better or worse. Our ear needs a standard for comparison. Without comparison you cannot say a certain amp is good or bad. Our ear has no fixed standard about how to rate an amp sound. It's adjusting it's standard of acceptance every minute.
If you hear a music videoclip in TV in your livingroom, and you happens to like the music, you will tap your feet, enjoying the music, even the TV set has no below 50hz or more than 12khz in it's spectrum range. Our ears "adjust" its level of acceptance, even the sound from our TV is not complete (from 20hz-20khz). The same thing when you listen to your stock car-radio. Most stock factory-built car stereo also doesn't have full 20hz-20khz, mostly middle range, but when you tuned to a song that you like, you just enjoy the music, not complaining about the "not perfect" reproduction of your stock car audio system. You won't turnoff your stock car stereo, instead you will sing along with the song.
Bad side : Our ear is like rubber. It's the same thing, like rubber. Bad in what sense? Our ears will adjust its acceptance level for an amplifier sound in just minutes. Assume you already got a very good amp. At the same time, our ear also will take this very good sounding amp as just "ordinary, not strange" in just minutes too. You will begin to search for another amp that "should" sound better than this one. At this point you already in a journey that has no end.
I have a friend who has spend alot-lot-lot of $$$ just to trade in audio stuff. Everytime he buy/sell his audio gear, it cost him so much $$$ to loose. Unfortunately, he is only interested in the highest price gears in the catalogue. Until today, he hasn't stop doing this, still "searching". (But this is a good thing for audio companies, new models will always have someone who bought it
)(Note : there is something that our ear will absolutely accept/not accept. High order harmonics caused by intermodulation. If an amp has this, you will be tired to listen to it, and wanted to turn down the volume or turnoff the music. Whether an amp sounds different to another, all should not have this, otherwise our ear will be tired listening to the reproduction)
You are right. The sound of an amp cannot be understood by reading comments from other people or by hearing comments from people who has heard it. You just got to hear it yourself.
Your acceptance big chance is different from a person in left or right of you.
There are MANY - MANY different sound characteristic that is made by the electronic cct configuration. Global feedback-non global feedback. Current feedback-voltage feedback. Singleton input-differential input-complementary singleton input-diamond buffer. High gain VAS-Folded Cascode VAS. EF-CFP-Diamond output stage. Error Correction-non error correction. 2stages-3stages-4.....5stages, etc. Whew....there's much more that will make an amp sound different. Even in the same schematic, you vary the component value or vary bias current or vary compensation schemes, the same schematic can sound very differently. Note : not all sound changes can be interpreted in measurement results. This is also another never ending story for a DIYer.
He may be right but in the same time LM3875 is an easy way to achive something. By using this IC you are take rather many shortcuts. I think it's best if you state a budget then deside what you can get for it.Taifun said:
State also basic specifications like power, bandwidth, distortion, complexity etc.
Sonny has nice design very much alike my QRV-08 headphone amp but a problem may be the surface mounted parts.
www.mirand.dk
Hugh (AKSA) doesn't mind surely to sell a amp kit to you. You have many options if you settle for a pcb and gather the parts by yourself. Hugh sells a kit and this may be easier.
Hi Per Anders,
Of course, I'm happy to sell my kit to any person wanting one, but I spoke to Pavel for very different reasons.....
I have nothing against the 3886 and related chips. They serve an important part of the market and are a very good way to start out. Results can be very good, too.
Of course, the purpose of the forum is not to sell kits, but rather, to foster discussion. Whatever happened to Sonny's amp? We were supposed to swap kits, but it never happened, what's it like, Per Anders? Good sonics?
Cheers,
Hugh
Of course, I'm happy to sell my kit to any person wanting one, but I spoke to Pavel for very different reasons.....
I have nothing against the 3886 and related chips. They serve an important part of the market and are a very good way to start out. Results can be very good, too.
Of course, the purpose of the forum is not to sell kits, but rather, to foster discussion. Whatever happened to Sonny's amp? We were supposed to swap kits, but it never happened, what's it like, Per Anders? Good sonics?
Cheers,
Hugh
My point was that this poor russian guy must deside something and this is not to copy a high-end amp because it will not be a copy. It's probably better to try to buy a used one.
Mirand A1 has got good reports in Sweden but personally I have not listended to it (from what I know ).
Sonny has been busy so it seems. Have you had any email contact with him lately?
Mirand A1 has got good reports in Sweden but personally I have not listended to it (from what I know
).Sonny has been busy so it seems. Have you had any email contact with him lately?
Hi, Taifun,
The title of this thread is "Schematic of Hi-End". What is it that you are looking for? Hi-End usually automaticly associated with "Expensive", but it is not quite right, I think.
I read somewhere an explenation of the term "Hi-End" :
First : Hi-End refers to the product's performance, not their price. What kind of performance that can catagorized to Hi-End? If your amp has meet minimal standard of THD, S/N-ratio, channel separation, and other technical measurement (THX standard, for example), usually it is catagorized to Hi-Fi. So Hi-End needs other requirements.
Second : High-End audio is about communicating the musical experience. Hi-End equipment are not difficult to operate. Usually they don't have "high-tech-difficult-to-operate" buttons that makes the equipment hard to be operated. High-End audio is for music lovers, not intentionally made only to show technical excellence.
Third : anyone who likes music can immediately appreciate the value of high-quality sound reproduction. It doesn't take a "golden ear" to know what sounds good. The difference between good and mediocre music reproduction are instantly obious. The reaction-usually pleasure and surprise-of someone hearing a true high-end audio system for the first time underscores that high-end audio can be appreciated by everyone. If you enjoy music, you'll enjoy it more through a high-end system. It's that simple.
Last and most important : The goal of high-end audio is to make the equipment "disappear"; when that happens, we know that we have reached the highest state of communication between musician and the listener. High-End audio isn't about equipment; it's about music.
In the 4 items above, none has technical terms like bipolars, mosfets, tubes, feedback, etc, and high-end is not associated with price limitation.
So you can built whatever you want, with whatever budget you have, and if in the final result, your equipment has already "dissappear", ie: you only feel the emotion inside the song/music you hear, forgetting about your system, then conragulations, you have made a high-end amp
(Note : High-End is associated with a "system", so besides the power amp, the room accoustics, all other equipement : signal source, speakers, etc has to meet the quality of your power amp too)
The title of this thread is "Schematic of Hi-End". What is it that you are looking for? Hi-End usually automaticly associated with "Expensive", but it is not quite right, I think.
I read somewhere an explenation of the term "Hi-End" :
First : Hi-End refers to the product's performance, not their price. What kind of performance that can catagorized to Hi-End? If your amp has meet minimal standard of THD, S/N-ratio, channel separation, and other technical measurement (THX standard, for example), usually it is catagorized to Hi-Fi. So Hi-End needs other requirements.
Second : High-End audio is about communicating the musical experience. Hi-End equipment are not difficult to operate. Usually they don't have "high-tech-difficult-to-operate" buttons that makes the equipment hard to be operated. High-End audio is for music lovers, not intentionally made only to show technical excellence.
Third : anyone who likes music can immediately appreciate the value of high-quality sound reproduction. It doesn't take a "golden ear" to know what sounds good. The difference between good and mediocre music reproduction are instantly obious. The reaction-usually pleasure and surprise-of someone hearing a true high-end audio system for the first time underscores that high-end audio can be appreciated by everyone. If you enjoy music, you'll enjoy it more through a high-end system. It's that simple.
Last and most important : The goal of high-end audio is to make the equipment "disappear"; when that happens, we know that we have reached the highest state of communication between musician and the listener. High-End audio isn't about equipment; it's about music.
In the 4 items above, none has technical terms like bipolars, mosfets, tubes, feedback, etc, and high-end is not associated with price limitation.
So you can built whatever you want, with whatever budget you have, and if in the final result, your equipment has already "dissappear", ie: you only feel the emotion inside the song/music you hear, forgetting about your system, then conragulations, you have made a high-end amp
(Note : High-End is associated with a "system", so besides the power amp, the room accoustics, all other equipement : signal source, speakers, etc has to meet the quality of your power amp too)
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