Re: Re: Re: Scary! my old panasonic portable performs better than the GC!!
Don't be.
I think your post was not very precise about what are you exactly comparing.
You didn't say what speakers are you using and of course I can't believe that the internal speakers decent.
As you didn't specify what are you testing, you get posts about clock radios and the like.😀
So, let's see:
Are you using the same source for both amps?
Are you using the same speakers?
What speakers?
What source?
Do you trust your source, do you consider it good enough and neutral enough to make a reliable test?
Otherwise you'll get fooled by the results because the worst amp is just making the sound of the source more bearable.
The Gaincard was not the first "serious" chipamp, other manufacturers (like Linn) were already using chips on expensive amps.
Anyway, maby you have found a good chip?
But maby that thing was made only to drive cheap high-impedance TV speakers.
demogorgon said:
Don't be.
I think your post was not very precise about what are you exactly comparing.
You didn't say what speakers are you using and of course I can't believe that the internal speakers decent.
As you didn't specify what are you testing, you get posts about clock radios and the like.😀
So, let's see:
Are you using the same source for both amps?
Are you using the same speakers?
What speakers?
What source?
Do you trust your source, do you consider it good enough and neutral enough to make a reliable test?
Otherwise you'll get fooled by the results because the worst amp is just making the sound of the source more bearable.
demogorgon said:
The Gaincard was not the first "serious" chipamp, other manufacturers (like Linn) were already using chips on expensive amps.
Anyway, maby you have found a good chip?
But maby that thing was made only to drive cheap high-impedance TV speakers.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Scary! my old panasonic portable performs better than the GC!!
thanks David! i'l be checking it out..
go play hide and sek in teh dark somewhere, just not here.
if you cant keep seriuos, then dont post.
if you have a good power opamp or ic amp in your cellphone, great, lets hear about it, otherwise..
/\
Look up. |
I like my audigy very much, it's far from the best, but more than enough to compliment a chipamp.
Carlos, read the first post again.. you will se that i wrote wich speakers i use, and my source.
you will altso find that i'm testing a Panasonic portabel casette\radio versus my lm3886 GC.
The audigy2 has pretty good specs no matter where you look at it from. a 106db signal to noise ratio, and the same for dynamic range, 196kHz output, although i only use it at 96kHz, but most importantly, it sound good. i compared it directly against my old cd player, a pioneer pd306 or something, cost me about 220euro 5-6 years ago.
I dare say that the pioneer was better in all other areas then bass and high treble, but the audigy impressed me nontheless. it held it's ground rather well for a computer soundcard.
and yes, same source and speakers for both amps. even the same cables.
My friend agreed with me as well, that the panasonic sounded a lot better than "it had a right to", so to say.
but over to something else:
i ****ed up when removing one og the NC pins on a lm4700, so that amp will have to wait.
I decided then to build myself another lm 3886 amp, with the opa627 as a buffer, buildt your way.
I'v been doing a lot of searching on your work, but i havn't found a lot on your power amp:
you use the opa627 as a buffer, biased to class a with a 1.8kohms resistor from V- to the output?
220k and 20k as feedback resistors?
you use 100uf caps on the pins of the is bypassed by 0.1uf polyprops?
you use mur860 with bypass caps?
snubbered 10.000uf psu, using 1ohm in series with 0.1uf?
and a pair of 4.7kohms in paralell with the snubber?
is there anything more i need to know?
do you use anything else on the lm? like the 22uf in series with the 20k ect?
you say you have high end sound, and so would i.
maby then i'l throw away the panasonic too..
dw1narso said:
thanks David! i'l be checking it out..
albystarvation said:
go play hide and sek in teh dark somewhere, just not here.
if you cant keep seriuos, then dont post.
if you have a good power opamp or ic amp in your cellphone, great, lets hear about it, otherwise..
adason said:
/\
Look up. |
Vix said:
I like my audigy very much, it's far from the best, but more than enough to compliment a chipamp.
carlosfm said:
Don't be.
I think your post was not very precise about what are you exactly comparing.
You didn't say what speakers are you using and of course I can't believe that the internal speakers decent.
As you didn't specify what are you testing, you get posts about clock radios and the like.😀
So, let's see:
Are you using the same source for both amps?
Are you using the same speakers?
What speakers?
What source?
Do you trust your source, do you consider it good enough and neutral enough to make a reliable test?
Otherwise you'll get fooled by the results because the worst amp is just making the sound of the source more bearable.
The Gaincard was not the first "serious" chipamp, other manufacturers (like Linn) were already using chips on expensive amps.
Anyway, maby you have found a good chip?
But maby that thing was made only to drive cheap high-impedance TV speakers.
Carlos, read the first post again.. you will se that i wrote wich speakers i use, and my source.
you will altso find that i'm testing a Panasonic portabel casette\radio versus my lm3886 GC.
The audigy2 has pretty good specs no matter where you look at it from. a 106db signal to noise ratio, and the same for dynamic range, 196kHz output, although i only use it at 96kHz, but most importantly, it sound good. i compared it directly against my old cd player, a pioneer pd306 or something, cost me about 220euro 5-6 years ago.
I dare say that the pioneer was better in all other areas then bass and high treble, but the audigy impressed me nontheless. it held it's ground rather well for a computer soundcard.
and yes, same source and speakers for both amps. even the same cables.
My friend agreed with me as well, that the panasonic sounded a lot better than "it had a right to", so to say.
but over to something else:
i ****ed up when removing one og the NC pins on a lm4700, so that amp will have to wait.
I decided then to build myself another lm 3886 amp, with the opa627 as a buffer, buildt your way.
I'v been doing a lot of searching on your work, but i havn't found a lot on your power amp:
you use the opa627 as a buffer, biased to class a with a 1.8kohms resistor from V- to the output?
220k and 20k as feedback resistors?
you use 100uf caps on the pins of the is bypassed by 0.1uf polyprops?
you use mur860 with bypass caps?
snubbered 10.000uf psu, using 1ohm in series with 0.1uf?
and a pair of 4.7kohms in paralell with the snubber?
is there anything more i need to know?
do you use anything else on the lm? like the 22uf in series with the 20k ect?
you say you have high end sound, and so would i.
maby then i'l throw away the panasonic too..
Upupa Epops said:
Upupa Epops, maybe I didn't explain myself properly, what I meant is DIYaudio is about pleasing yourself. Everyone has different tastes and the Panasonic maybe preferrable to some people.
I've heard Joe's JLTi Mk I GC and its sounds a lot better than my Gainclones. So I know there are very good GCs out there.
Are GC "sound endstation"? If I understand you right are you asking me if I think GC are the best amp. Well IMHO I'd say no. I don't use Gainclones on my main system.
I recently bought a $146 amp with the intention of gutting it and using the case for a GC. When I plugged it in and listened to it I got the surprise of my life. This thing sounds pretty good, I don't know what to do now. 😕
Re: Re: Re: Scary! my old panasonic portable performs better than the GC!!
No, I have schematic.
http://cxema.ru/audio.htm
Regards,
Milan
demogorgon said:
No, I have schematic.
http://cxema.ru/audio.htm
Regards,
Milan
Certainly better than a portable
Don't take me wrong Marius but there are thousands of ways of using a chip, and nobody does it the same way.
Your result is just your result, and I take it just as that.
Don't judge an LM3886 chip for what you can get out of it.
I think I've proven many times here that the chip is just a small part of the amp, everything counts to make it sing properly.
Chip "critics" say that with a chip and half a dozen parts you can't go wrong and these are amps for "beginners", but they just don't know what they are talking about, and they don't even suspect how this thing can perform or how to make it perform.
I don't know exactly what topology or implementation are you using on your LM3886 amp, but try something like this if you want.😎
demogorgon said:
Don't take me wrong Marius but there are thousands of ways of using a chip, and nobody does it the same way.
Your result is just your result, and I take it just as that.
Don't judge an LM3886 chip for what you can get out of it.
I think I've proven many times here that the chip is just a small part of the amp, everything counts to make it sing properly.
Chip "critics" say that with a chip and half a dozen parts you can't go wrong and these are amps for "beginners", but they just don't know what they are talking about, and they don't even suspect how this thing can perform or how to make it perform.
I don't know exactly what topology or implementation are you using on your LM3886 amp, but try something like this if you want.😎
I agree with Carlos. I have been playing with chipamps for over 3 years, and the thing that makes or breaks them more than any premium or exotic components is schematic and layout. These things are very sensitive. However, I don't downplay your findings. It would be interesting to see if you can trace the schematic for the chip in your Panny and see if we can work out what is going on.
Marius
No question: you must love (relatively) high harmonic distortion. Look at the datasheet!
Specially the thd below 200Hz makes you writing about "good bass" 😀
Maybe, you build a tube amp, one day?
Regards
Franz
No question: you must love (relatively) high harmonic distortion. Look at the datasheet!
Specially the thd below 200Hz makes you writing about "good bass" 😀
Maybe, you build a tube amp, one day?
Regards
Franz
Re: Certainly better than a portable
Carlos, thanks!
I'm in the midle of soldering what i have available as of now, just lacking a pair of resistors, but nothing critical.
what sort of layout do you use?
reallly appreciate your help on this, to make the amp perform it's max.
Franz: i havn't had a look yet, but i think distortion figures are highly overrated, i'm not using SEAS exel speakers you know, i'm not gonna hear the difference between 1% and 0.0001.
paper cone speakers have a high enough energy storage to hide a lot of "****" in the sound.
and may i add that i'm not driving it hard at all, actually i would be surprised if it's putting out more than just a few watts, maby 2-3 watts.. distortion is not very high then is it?
It does sound bad when driven hard, it does.
it's not a magical amp, just a huge positive suprise.
carlosfm said:
Carlos, thanks!
I'm in the midle of soldering what i have available as of now, just lacking a pair of resistors, but nothing critical.
what sort of layout do you use?
reallly appreciate your help on this, to make the amp perform it's max.
Franz G said:
Franz: i havn't had a look yet, but i think distortion figures are highly overrated, i'm not using SEAS exel speakers you know, i'm not gonna hear the difference between 1% and 0.0001.
paper cone speakers have a high enough energy storage to hide a lot of "****" in the sound.
and may i add that i'm not driving it hard at all, actually i would be surprised if it's putting out more than just a few watts, maby 2-3 watts.. distortion is not very high then is it?
It does sound bad when driven hard, it does.
it's not a magical amp, just a huge positive suprise.
Re: Certainly better than a portable
Agree 100% with you Carlos.
Sorry Carlos, you haven't proven ANYTHING. You have given your OPINION about mod results.
Jan Didden
carlosfm said:
Agree 100% with you Carlos.
Sorry Carlos, you haven't proven ANYTHING. You have given your OPINION about mod results.
Jan Didden
Going back to the original post or thereabouts, is there any chance the problem is as mundane as impedance matching and/or coupling between tjhe signal source and the and the amplifier? One presumes Panasonic got it right if only because given the unit volume, doing it more or less right carries little or no cost penalty. Putting it another way, perhaps the amp is OK except that it's putting too much burden on the signal source.
I say this only because based on the one I built, the LM3886, though not brilliant, should be **at least** in the same league as most of what you can get from CircuitCity or Walmart.
I say this only because based on the one I built, the LM3886, though not brilliant, should be **at least** in the same league as most of what you can get from CircuitCity or Walmart.
janneman said:
For those who have tried my "crazy" ideas it is proved, and I was talking for those.
For you, it's just an oppinion.
sam9 said:
Sam,
It could be, if for instance the input impedance of the GC is rather low and that of the Panasonic high, the GC could load down the source. But it is a rare source these days that cares about anything over a few k input impedance, with the possible exception of a tube output source. So although a theoritical possibility, it's unlikely, but maybe Marius can inform us here.
And don't belittle Walmart & Co, with volume production and the ready availability of very good components at very low prices, a 50$ amp can be very, very good. What can a GC bring to outperform an up-to-date mass-produced far east product? I mean in parts quality and such? Not a whole lot, I would think. True, you can put exotic caps and whatnot in the GC, but the advantage, if any, is easily lost by an unfortunate ground wire or a suboptimal transformer position. It is very difficult for the DIY-er to get all these interrelated and conflicting ducks in a straight row, they just don't have the measurement equipment to make sure they are optimal.
Jan Didden
janneman said:
I like this statement as I find it to be true in a lot of cases. My experience is that mass produced gear often has way lower RMA rates than high end models of the same manufacturers. It seems low end gear is thoroughly designed to function well enough with a low component count and maybe these design efforts and rethinking can be found in a more thought-out design/prototype before production starts ?!?!
One of the shining examples is the Koda KD-269 amp Conrad sells for 149 Euro. Never seen anything electronic before so mechanically and electronically well-built at that price ! As a bonus it even sounds very good. Mine had Nichicon (!) caps at most places which I replaced for Panasonic FC. I did not try the preamp but as you can see it has relays for input switching which is a surprise as it only costs 99 Euro.
http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/d...330120-sp-01-en-Endst_KD269_Vorverst_KD33.pdf
Another example is that Behringer DCX2496 digital xover. People say, hey, less than 400 euro, what can that be as a digital component with DSP and 6 channel DACs and ADCs and XLR and useable as delay compensator, xover, equaliser etc.
Well, open one up: Mr Behringer is making a killing even at less than 400 euro's! All that performance that 15 years ago simply wasn't available to anyone except well-heeled studios is now ridiculously cheap.
Sorry, I know, OT. Won't happen again (today).
Jan Didden
Well, open one up: Mr Behringer is making a killing even at less than 400 euro's! All that performance that 15 years ago simply wasn't available to anyone except well-heeled studios is now ridiculously cheap.
Sorry, I know, OT. Won't happen again (today).
Jan Didden
oh, thats no problem for me, at least, this thred wasn't ment to be much more than a way to get out my shock over the panasonic.
anyways, i'm resting my case until a propper comparacing can be made of the two amps, and the new one i'm building, copying carlos as much\well as i can.
Being just a seventeen year old i dont have any expreience with building electronics. this offcource means that the stuff i build does not perform as well as what others make who ave some years to tip the scale the right way.
here in norway we have a saying (yes Jan, this is for you 😉
"de gamle er eldst". the meaning behind this jan will inform you of shortly.
anyways, i stand corrected, for now.
anyways, i'm resting my case until a propper comparacing can be made of the two amps, and the new one i'm building, copying carlos as much\well as i can.
Being just a seventeen year old i dont have any expreience with building electronics. this offcource means that the stuff i build does not perform as well as what others make who ave some years to tip the scale the right way.
here in norway we have a saying (yes Jan, this is for you 😉
"de gamle er eldst". the meaning behind this jan will inform you of shortly.
anyways, i stand corrected, for now.
http://www.hi-fi-end.narod.ru/Pleer.htm
look to pictures of my craizy Sumsung Upgrade sori text is only in russian
look to pictures of my craizy Sumsung Upgrade sori text is only in russian
I agree to some extent with the RMA observation, however, it seems to me (my experience is all I've got even if it has no statistical significance <shrug>) that under certain circumstances the high volume Japanese products (which may not even be made in Japan anymore) have difficulties. Those happen when the demands placed on them go somewhat beyond the "typical". I 'm thinking specificly of Sony and Pioneer AVR units that died while driving Magnepans. Low sensativity plus low inpedance just ran them too hot notwithstanding being rated for 4-ohms and having thermal protection mechanisms.
Re: GC's -- I just like discrete amps because they are more of a challenge.
Re: GC's -- I just like discrete amps because they are more of a challenge.
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