Hi,
Has anybody modified or have any comments on the Squeezebox 3? Wondering if they had any potntial regarding tweaks.
I've a few modified cdp's and a diy dac and was thinking of buying one of these SB3's to have a play about with.
Only things I've seen is a better external 5v supply and bypassing the output op-amp with a coupling cap.
Is it worth going further with these units
Has anybody modified or have any comments on the Squeezebox 3? Wondering if they had any potntial regarding tweaks.
I've a few modified cdp's and a diy dac and was thinking of buying one of these SB3's to have a play about with.
Only things I've seen is a better external 5v supply and bypassing the output op-amp with a coupling cap.
Is it worth going further with these units
Hi T
I'm currently planning to mod my SB3. Having spent lots of time looking around the web for ideas, I have a list of tweaks I want to try and am currently collecting parts. I plan to use my SB3 without a DAC, so my tweaking will focus on improving the analogue outputs. I've read lots of good things about modded SB3's and i'm hoping after modding to retire my Arcam CD92T.
1) I already built a linear 5V supply to replace the stock supply. This bought some slight improvement, but for me it wasn't the step improvement i'm looking for.
2) I'll be removing the output opamp and coupling the DAC output to RCA sockets via Blackgate/Sonicap Platinum caps. I expect this to bring the biggest single improvement (fingers crossed!)
3) I'll upgrade the DAC to the "KE" version
4) I'll swap out the internal DAC supply caps for Panasonic FC/Blackgates.
May also remove 12.28Mhz oscillator (used to upsample low bit rate radio stations). This has been shown to lower jitter marginally.
For analogue out, I think that's about all there is to tweak. The only other stuff I've seen is to do with re-routing DAC power feeds to avoid internal switching supplies. Also one report of using an external TentLabs clock.
Hope this helps
I'm currently planning to mod my SB3. Having spent lots of time looking around the web for ideas, I have a list of tweaks I want to try and am currently collecting parts. I plan to use my SB3 without a DAC, so my tweaking will focus on improving the analogue outputs. I've read lots of good things about modded SB3's and i'm hoping after modding to retire my Arcam CD92T.
1) I already built a linear 5V supply to replace the stock supply. This bought some slight improvement, but for me it wasn't the step improvement i'm looking for.
2) I'll be removing the output opamp and coupling the DAC output to RCA sockets via Blackgate/Sonicap Platinum caps. I expect this to bring the biggest single improvement (fingers crossed!)
3) I'll upgrade the DAC to the "KE" version
4) I'll swap out the internal DAC supply caps for Panasonic FC/Blackgates.
May also remove 12.28Mhz oscillator (used to upsample low bit rate radio stations). This has been shown to lower jitter marginally.
For analogue out, I think that's about all there is to tweak. The only other stuff I've seen is to do with re-routing DAC power feeds to avoid internal switching supplies. Also one report of using an external TentLabs clock.
Hope this helps
Hi Clipper,
thank you for your reply, I'd have thought modding these SB3 would be more popular.
How do you currently rate the sound of your SB3? I have a few modded cdp's including a highly modified Arcam Alpha5 which sounds excellent, Ideally I'd like to replace it with a SB3 if it has the potential.
If not I'll use the SB3 with my diy Pedja dac.
I was planning on running separate super regs to each of its supplys, instead of totally removing the op-amp I may build an output stage using something like an LM4562 or AD827 and feeding it a +/-v supply instead of the single +v supply as used in the SB3.
I may also remove the 12mhz clock and fit a tent based XO for 11.2896mhz
I have a PCM1748KE chip already😀 unfortunately when I ordered the SB3 there was none in stock so I'm waiting for another delivery
thank you for your reply, I'd have thought modding these SB3 would be more popular.
How do you currently rate the sound of your SB3? I have a few modded cdp's including a highly modified Arcam Alpha5 which sounds excellent, Ideally I'd like to replace it with a SB3 if it has the potential.
If not I'll use the SB3 with my diy Pedja dac.
I was planning on running separate super regs to each of its supplys, instead of totally removing the op-amp I may build an output stage using something like an LM4562 or AD827 and feeding it a +/-v supply instead of the single +v supply as used in the SB3.
I may also remove the 12mhz clock and fit a tent based XO for 11.2896mhz
I have a PCM1748KE chip already😀 unfortunately when I ordered the SB3 there was none in stock so I'm waiting for another delivery
Agreed. There doesn't seem to be much DIY modding of these going on. Lots of talk however about professionally modded units (from Bolder or Red Wine Audio etc) on SlimDevices.com forum and AudiCircle.com. Lots of happy people using modded units in very high-end systems.
The stock SB3 sound is far from shabby. When you consider the price of these things it's pretty impressive what they've achieved. Since I got mine, i've used it pretty much exclusively, only really using the CD92T occasionally for comparison. As you'd expect, the SB3 stock sound isn't as nice as my CD92T. It's less detailed, and gives a flatter presentation (in terms of soundstage, rather than dynamics) and is a little bright. That said, I still find it a pleasing listen. I'm sure using your stock SB3 with an external DAC would improve these areas. So you "stock" sound may be better than I currently get.
I too have a few PCM1748KE, so that one is a no-brainer. Super-regs is fairly major surgery and is further than I want to go at the moment. Although I would be very interested in your implementation of this (and the Tent XO) for a possible phase 2 set of mods!
A lot of folk with pro-modded units where the op-amp stage is removed use the analogue outs directly to a power amp. I was keen on removing the op-amp partly to get the resulting output level drop. A potential downside of this however is that it introduces a phase inversion. Not sure if this is something I will hear.
The stock SB3 sound is far from shabby. When you consider the price of these things it's pretty impressive what they've achieved. Since I got mine, i've used it pretty much exclusively, only really using the CD92T occasionally for comparison. As you'd expect, the SB3 stock sound isn't as nice as my CD92T. It's less detailed, and gives a flatter presentation (in terms of soundstage, rather than dynamics) and is a little bright. That said, I still find it a pleasing listen. I'm sure using your stock SB3 with an external DAC would improve these areas. So you "stock" sound may be better than I currently get.
I too have a few PCM1748KE, so that one is a no-brainer. Super-regs is fairly major surgery and is further than I want to go at the moment. Although I would be very interested in your implementation of this (and the Tent XO) for a possible phase 2 set of mods!
A lot of folk with pro-modded units where the op-amp stage is removed use the analogue outs directly to a power amp. I was keen on removing the op-amp partly to get the resulting output level drop. A potential downside of this however is that it introduces a phase inversion. Not sure if this is something I will hear.
Ideally I didn't want to use an active pre-amp going to my amp so I'm searching around trying to find a decent circuit that would be suitable for the PCM1748 output stage, if I can't find anything I'll just build something based on op-amps.
I think one of the older downloads is supposed to invert the signal so should be suitable to use if you remove the op-amp and fit a coupling cap
My modified CDP has already seen off enough non modded units so the SB3 needs to be made to sound at least as good before I'd consider using it as my main source.
Hopefully we can get a few more interested in modding these units
I think one of the older downloads is supposed to invert the signal so should be suitable to use if you remove the op-amp and fit a coupling cap
My modified CDP has already seen off enough non modded units so the SB3 needs to be made to sound at least as good before I'd consider using it as my main source.
Hopefully we can get a few more interested in modding these units
There have also been requests for Slimserver to implement a switchable phase setting. The new Transporter supports this feature, but it hasn't yet been adapted for the SB3.
One other potentially exciting option with the SB3 is the Digital Room Correction plugin that a guy named Inguz has developed. Its early days but a few users are reporting good results. I'm trying to track down the bits needed to give this a go.
One other potentially exciting option with the SB3 is the Digital Room Correction plugin that a guy named Inguz has developed. Its early days but a few users are reporting good results. I'm trying to track down the bits needed to give this a go.
Clipper said:
Digital room correction, I've not heard of that for the SB3, should be interesting.
The switchable phase setting would certainly be worthwhile, I'll have a look on the slimdevices forum to see if I can find anything
Hi,
I modified my SB3 almost a year ago and reported the results over on the slim devices forum. It's gotten buried in all the traffic since then but you can take a look here:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19822
Since writing this up, I've changed the external power supply to an HP lab supply I picked up off of ebay and it represented another step up in performance.
I can also report that there seems to be a big variation in preference for the digital out of the squeezebox vs. analog outs from system to system. In my system, I now greatly prefer an external dac. But I've taken it over to other people's houses and there the internal dac was better. But the mods I did improve both the digital and analog outputs so you get to experiment for yourself.
Have fun.
---Gary
I modified my SB3 almost a year ago and reported the results over on the slim devices forum. It's gotten buried in all the traffic since then but you can take a look here:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19822
Since writing this up, I've changed the external power supply to an HP lab supply I picked up off of ebay and it represented another step up in performance.
I can also report that there seems to be a big variation in preference for the digital out of the squeezebox vs. analog outs from system to system. In my system, I now greatly prefer an external dac. But I've taken it over to other people's houses and there the internal dac was better. But the mods I did improve both the digital and analog outputs so you get to experiment for yourself.
Have fun.
---Gary
The analog circuits in the SB3 are powered from the DC-DC converter that provides high voltage for the display. I would think that biggest bang for the buck modification would be to cut the analog section's power free of the DC-DC converter and replace it with an analog regulated source.
I_F
I_F
Linear voltage feeds from within the SB3?
Hi I_F,
Good idea.
t. mentioned using super regs with external feeds for analogue circuit power. This would be the best solution, but I was wondering about an internal alternative.
The SB3 has a linear regulated 3.3V for the headphone amp derived directly from the 5V input.
Anybody got thoughts on borrowing this, together with a line from the main 5V input to power the DAC?
Hi I_F,
Good idea.
t. mentioned using super regs with external feeds for analogue circuit power. This would be the best solution, but I was wondering about an internal alternative.
The SB3 has a linear regulated 3.3V for the headphone amp derived directly from the 5V input.
Anybody got thoughts on borrowing this, together with a line from the main 5V input to power the DAC?
i've been trying to find a detailed schematic for the SB3, only thing I could find was a basic one for SB2 which is not very detailed, it would be better to see one with the regulation circuits.
I'm still waiting for SB3 to arrive, theres currently no stock.
Keep the replys coming guys, be nice to get some more interest for modding these things🙂
I'm still waiting for SB3 to arrive, theres currently no stock.
Keep the replys coming guys, be nice to get some more interest for modding these things🙂
I don't know why there are so few posts here having anything to do with SB3 and similar devices/systems. It seems like the DIY audiophile community is a little slow to adjust to new technology.
I_F
I_F
I_Forgot said:
Hi I_F,
Totally agree with you! I put it off for long enough but decided to give it a go
t,
Did you get your SB3 yet?
To whet your appetite, I've attached a SB2 schematic I found on the slimdevices forums.
Did you get your SB3 yet?
To whet your appetite, I've attached a SB2 schematic I found on the slimdevices forums.
Clipper said:
Thanks for that Clipper🙂
Yes I have the SB3, I've done a few mods
Changed the supplied plug in supply for one using a 4-pole T-net cap supplying a ALW super reg with LM1084 pre-reg.
Changed the op-amp to AD8066, changed the caps biasing the opamp to 1uf film, removed the 12mhz crystal, changed the decoupling caps for the dac to Rubycon ZA, lowered the cap going across the feedback resistor for the op-amp, changed coupling caps to BC128
Oh my SB3 already had the KE grade dac chip fitted so that saved me a job😉
The sound so far isn't bad, better than the stock unit but still has a very long way to go, I feel even my modified cdp beats it in a lot of area's.
The sound is a little lacking in depth, the mids are a weaker than my cdp, its not bad though.
Ideally we need to get more people on here, I'm sure we can get things much better
Hi t,
I made a few mods too. I stuck more to the "tried and tested" stuff. I've gone for directly coupling the KE dac to RCAs with 4.7uF Blackgates, bypassed with 0.1uF Sonicap Platinums. Removed the opamp and a few surrounding caps. Lifted the 12mHz crystal.
After playing for a few days, its sounding quite nice. Much better than stock. Greatly improved soundstage and generally less "in-your-face". Compared to my CDP, its a close call. The SB3 highs are rolled off (maybe caps still breaking in?) and there isn't quite the same level of detail (suppressed reverb detail etc). But tonality and dynamics are close. Well on the way though.
I've been using the Inguz DRC plugin to give me a phase inversion. Plus the drop in output level lets be plug the SB3 directly into the power amp stage of my integrated. This helps also.
I;m still using the messy internal switchers to power the DAC. I haven't swapped out the dac supply caps yet either. I'm using an external linear supply for 5V (LT1086+ panasonic FCs) but didn't hear any significant improvement over the stock supply.
Next on the list.... derive non-switching supply for the DAC. I can go wired and lose the wireless card, may give enough space for some internal ALW super regs?
I made a few mods too. I stuck more to the "tried and tested" stuff. I've gone for directly coupling the KE dac to RCAs with 4.7uF Blackgates, bypassed with 0.1uF Sonicap Platinums. Removed the opamp and a few surrounding caps. Lifted the 12mHz crystal.
After playing for a few days, its sounding quite nice. Much better than stock. Greatly improved soundstage and generally less "in-your-face". Compared to my CDP, its a close call. The SB3 highs are rolled off (maybe caps still breaking in?) and there isn't quite the same level of detail (suppressed reverb detail etc). But tonality and dynamics are close. Well on the way though.
I've been using the Inguz DRC plugin to give me a phase inversion. Plus the drop in output level lets be plug the SB3 directly into the power amp stage of my integrated. This helps also.
I;m still using the messy internal switchers to power the DAC. I haven't swapped out the dac supply caps yet either. I'm using an external linear supply for 5V (LT1086+ panasonic FCs) but didn't hear any significant improvement over the stock supply.
Next on the list.... derive non-switching supply for the DAC. I can go wired and lose the wireless card, may give enough space for some internal ALW super regs?
Clipper said:
Hi Clipper,
I'm finding the highs a bit rolled off, lacking detail too, also the midrange is weaker than I'm used to, its been running in well over a couple of weeks now.
I think its the dac chip tbh but we'll see.
Regarding how you use the SB3 I love it and its hard going back to messing about with cd's😀
It just needs the sound sorting out although I am picky😉
I'm currently using slimserver 6.2.2 and firmware 15.
still tempted to try the direct cap coupling of the output but don't want to loose any more dynamics tbh.
Mines the wired version, theres next to no room inside already so fitting better regulation is going to be hard, I'd like a schematic for the internal switcher and regulation just to see what can be removed etc.
You're right about the convenience of the SB3. I'm really not interested in going back to CDP. I'm prepared to make some small sacrifice in sound quality for this, but want to get the best I can before ditching the arcam.
Power thoughts...
One option is to hack into the rail for the 3.3V & 5V dac regulators (think it's 14V ) and hook up an external supply. No more internal switchers.
Or as I said before, the headphone amp is supposed to have a linear 3.3V supply. Any thoughts on using this together with the main 5V feed for DAC power? How much of a problem would it be not having regulators near to the DAC? Looks like any vastly improved regulation will likely have to be external anyway given the size restraints.
Power thoughts...
One option is to hack into the rail for the 3.3V & 5V dac regulators (think it's 14V ) and hook up an external supply. No more internal switchers.
Or as I said before, the headphone amp is supposed to have a linear 3.3V supply. Any thoughts on using this together with the main 5V feed for DAC power? How much of a problem would it be not having regulators near to the DAC? Looks like any vastly improved regulation will likely have to be external anyway given the size restraints.
Clipper said:
Mine seems to have a linear reg for the 3.3v and the 5v supplying the dac, but as you say they are run from the internal switcher,
Could try removing the 5v reg and wiring it straight to the input so my ALW super reg runs the dac direct and also have the 3.3v reg run from the 5v supply input too, is this what you meant?
I don't think the distance would be too much of a problem
One thing with my SB3 is that its ROHS making it a swine to remove the components😀
Hi all!
I'm an SB3 owner who is eager to dig in and modify..
So far I have only switched to using battery power.
One thing I was thinking was if the whole display section and it's internal power supply could simply be disabled (for example with a toggle switch). This would enable evaluating if it will be worth breaking out various power supplies.
The lack of chematics and the rather crowded circuit board have stopped me from doing anything so far..
Rgds
I'm an SB3 owner who is eager to dig in and modify..
So far I have only switched to using battery power.
One thing I was thinking was if the whole display section and it's internal power supply could simply be disabled (for example with a toggle switch). This would enable evaluating if it will be worth breaking out various power supplies.
The lack of chematics and the rather crowded circuit board have stopped me from doing anything so far..
Rgds
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