I was thinking Satori all along but maybe I just found the answer? What do people think of the SB29NRX75-6 woofers in a sealed box? I have read good things about the woofer section for the Kairos kit by Bagby (Meniscus kit). According to several online calculators; I could expect an f3 in the mid to low 40's with just about 33 Liters (1.17 ft^3). If that holds to be true; I might consider the PE knock down box (Denovo 1.16 ft^3) #300-7066. (the diameter of the SB29 is 290 mm or about 11.4 in. and the "depth" of the PE box is 11.0 in. I can always add a 12 in. by 12 in. baffle cover panel if the overlap won't match up with the mounting screw holes). The advantage is I don't have a real work shop any longer or many power tools (would have borrow from friends, family, etc.) AND, this box would fit nicely into my existing space without having to move much around. Comments? Experiences??
Thanks again!
I was considering the W024P; So, in your opinion and experience; you like the NE265 MUCH better???
I have some 33 liter boxes; I tried the SB29NRX...but don't like the mid and upper bass; great lower bass but I want something in the 9 inch to 11 inch range. I also thought about 2 per side Satori 7 1/2 inch but then that price per side is really more than my budget
I would most likely cross to mids at 300 Hz or so; I'd like an in room f3 in the 40's or maybe even low 50's Hz. Closed box or vented or Aperiodic; I want to use my existing boxes if at all possible
Thanks!
I think your options are following, considering you already have 33l boxes available:
- WO24P in closed box
- NE265W, I used it in 50l BR, but if I recall Basta modelling, lower volume would be even better, and it could actually work well in 33l BR, though BR length will be probably quite long
- or to go with 8" woofer, 21W-8555, WF223BD, NE225W,....
If I average my experiences with different woofers, I prefer Scan Speak woofers, I was never disappointed with any of them, they have nice effortless and open sound. NE line and WF line are also very good too.
- WO24P in closed box
- NE265W, I used it in 50l BR, but if I recall Basta modelling, lower volume would be even better, and it could actually work well in 33l BR, though BR length will be probably quite long
- or to go with 8" woofer, 21W-8555, WF223BD, NE225W,....
If I average my experiences with different woofers, I prefer Scan Speak woofers, I was never disappointed with any of them, they have nice effortless and open sound. NE line and WF line are also very good too.
Thanks! I saw a modeling of the 4 Ohm NE265W; in 35 l, f3 and tuning were 33 Hz. WO24P in closed box would also work. I have several smaller Satoris and really like them.
What specifically did you NOT like about the WO24, especially as compared to the NE265W???
My SB29NRX just sounds congested and boring in the mid and upper bass in 33 l closed with Aperiodic vent. I also have the Satori MW16P-4 in 15 l vented; it sounds WAY better than the SB29; more like music.
The newer Satori 7 1/2 inch might work but I'm really wanting something larger; I do have a sub woofer for below 40 Hz so either MW19P 4 or 8 Ohm MIGHT have enough output from 40 Hz up to satisfy my need for more bass SPL. All else being equal; I would prefer a nominal 10 inch over a nominal 8 inch; even if closed box.
I'm getting an in-room f3 of 37 Hz with the SB29; very low bass from a smaller, closed box and not using any bass EQ, etc.
If my new amplifier could power BOTH the SB29 and MW16 in parallel; that would be perfectly satisfactory. The combined impedance in parallel would get as low as 2 to 2.5 Ohms at certain frequencies. I am going to e mail or call the amplifier people and talk to the applications engineers. They may say it COULD do 2 Ohms. It is a pro amp; Crown XLi1500, it MIGHT just be able to do this. (I don't think wiring two very different woofers in series would work very well although; I could try it just as an experiment). I don't have $400 US right at the moment so any new woofer pair can wait a month or more.
Of course; another alternative is to sell the SB29's and MW16's both here on the swap shop; not QUITE ready to do that but that is a high possibility.
Thanks, looking forward to your opinions re the sound quality differences of the NE265 vs WO24.
Is there a particular Scan Speak driver in the 9 inch to 11 inch size you have tried and are particularly found of??? Other ideas???
I would prefer to keep the cost at about $200 US per woofer or lower. Seas Excel or SS Revelator I'm sure are both quite good but too expensive for this particular project; same reason I can't do two per side of the MW19...
Thanks again
I have to admit I did not give WO24 proper conditions to work in, the most probably, BUT, I tried BR and closed, crossovers 200-400Hz, LR2 and LR4. I would compare my impressions to your SB29NRX impressions. DEEEP bass, but that was all. Ulrik recommended 47l BR tuned to ~29Hz. Better, but very similar impression I had from SB17 series.
MW19, MW16 - these sound much better in 2way.
NE265W was very good, though I recall its FR shape was not easy to work with. I would not hesitate to use it again.
I currently work with 28W/4878T01, +MW19 +SS6600 in WG, still work in progress, but impression from 28W is great, I have it in ~43l 29Hz I think. But the cost of that woofer :-(.
Scan Speak does not have much woofers to choose from:
26W Revelator Alu - great but expensive
25W/8565 - goes deep in closed box ~80l
26W Discovery, that one could actually wok well in 33l closed box. Though maxSPL is quite limited with its +-6mm Xlin. 2 in parallel could work well to increase maxSPL.
MW19, MW16 - these sound much better in 2way.
NE265W was very good, though I recall its FR shape was not easy to work with. I would not hesitate to use it again.
I currently work with 28W/4878T01, +MW19 +SS6600 in WG, still work in progress, but impression from 28W is great, I have it in ~43l 29Hz I think. But the cost of that woofer :-(.
Scan Speak does not have much woofers to choose from:
26W Revelator Alu - great but expensive
25W/8565 - goes deep in closed box ~80l
26W Discovery, that one could actually wok well in 33l closed box. Though maxSPL is quite limited with its +-6mm Xlin. 2 in parallel could work well to increase maxSPL.
I can handle fancy X/O work if necessary. So, in your opinion and experience, the NE265W might be my best choice in my price range for size, SPL, low, mid and upper bass all 3. Have you modeled or tested the NE265W 4 Ohm vs 8 Ohm as compared to closed or vented and what box sizes, tunings, f3, etc. did you have or model? The NE265W looks to be very well designed and built but is low on sensitivity. I have a very powerful amp. now for dedicated woofer only use so low sensitivity is now no longer a problem.
Thanks again, looks like we have similar goals and tastes; many people just want boom and slam bass; they are missing out not having a FULL bass capable of more refinement up to 300 Hz or more. By the way; my mids are an odd duck. I am using the Satori MR16P-4 AND the new Mark Audio Pluvia 7 PHD BOTH to cover from 300 Hz up. They both have merits and sound good on their own; together; the combined experience is very magical and very musical. Imagine a very high end mid bass or full range capable of 300 Hz to over 4 KHz that might cost in excess of $600, maybe $800 US or more. THIS is what these two drivers sound like when used together. Now that I have a new dedicated woofer amplifier; I will separate the MR16P and P7PHD so they will also each have their own amplifiers. My system is all passive (except sub woofer plate amp) but each driver pair will now have a separate amplifier with individual gain control. NOT full active obviously but the next best thing I suppose!??
Cheers and thanks once again; creative juices flowing again...very crazy and addictive hobby we speaker and HiFi "nerds" have for sure!
Thanks again, looks like we have similar goals and tastes; many people just want boom and slam bass; they are missing out not having a FULL bass capable of more refinement up to 300 Hz or more. By the way; my mids are an odd duck. I am using the Satori MR16P-4 AND the new Mark Audio Pluvia 7 PHD BOTH to cover from 300 Hz up. They both have merits and sound good on their own; together; the combined experience is very magical and very musical. Imagine a very high end mid bass or full range capable of 300 Hz to over 4 KHz that might cost in excess of $600, maybe $800 US or more. THIS is what these two drivers sound like when used together. Now that I have a new dedicated woofer amplifier; I will separate the MR16P and P7PHD so they will also each have their own amplifiers. My system is all passive (except sub woofer plate amp) but each driver pair will now have a separate amplifier with individual gain control. NOT full active obviously but the next best thing I suppose!??
Cheers and thanks once again; creative juices flowing again...very crazy and addictive hobby we speaker and HiFi "nerds" have for sure!
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HiFi Loudspeaker Design
Here is a model of the NE265W 8 Ohm assuming a Qt of 0.3 (I always use an inductor with very heavy wire gauge so DCR added would be very small).
With a Ql of 15; 33 l looks pretty good; f10 about 23 Hz
With a Ql of 7; box size goes up some but I have stuffing to increase apparent box volume. f10 would still be about 23 Hz
The 4 Ohm version has more sensitivity and actually calls for a smaller box size here. I think the slightly higher Q of the 8 Ohm would be a little more to my advantage but the difference is very small considering...
Comments??? Advice??? Experience???
Here is a model of the NE265W 8 Ohm assuming a Qt of 0.3 (I always use an inductor with very heavy wire gauge so DCR added would be very small).
With a Ql of 15; 33 l looks pretty good; f10 about 23 Hz
With a Ql of 7; box size goes up some but I have stuffing to increase apparent box volume. f10 would still be about 23 Hz
The 4 Ohm version has more sensitivity and actually calls for a smaller box size here. I think the slightly higher Q of the 8 Ohm would be a little more to my advantage but the difference is very small considering...
Comments??? Advice??? Experience???
I wonder whether you're familiar with the box sim programs out there, because I'm guessing you'd be interested in seeing response plots together with maximum pressure plots, or the plots of different boxes, tunings and drivers together on the same chart.
There is nothing inferior about either kind. Just different advantages, different methods etc.
I am only familiar with calculators; not modeling or simulation software exactly. I read what others have done; I don't see a real need for me to actually purchase any software but I have occasionally played around with the free, online model or simulators for box size, tuning, SPL, etc.
I'm trying to find a suitable 10 inch nominal woofer as a better match for my needs. The SB29NRX just doesn't do it for me.
So, the suggestion for the Vifa/Peerless/Tymphany (what ever they call themselves these days) NE 265 W seems to be the best match for my 33 liter box.
As I have said many places; I REALLY like the smaller Satoris I have; I just need something with more surface area and power handling. Now that I have a much more powerful amplifier; I need not be concerned with sensitivity. Even 85 dB would work since the new Crown is rated for 450 Watts into 4 Ohms and 330 Watts into 8 Ohms.
It was suggested above also that the Satori WO24 series had a similar bass character as my SB29's; great deep bass; mid and upper bass not so much.
I want to stick with my 33 liter boxes. I am open to other suggestions here as well. Closed box, vented box, Aperiodic as I now have it, etc. My preferred f3 is anywhere in the 40's or low 50 Hz range since I have the subs for below 40 Hz. The goal is more SPL from 40 Hz up to 300 Hz or so but I don't want sluggish or boomy low bass ONLY. I am after a satisfying and accurate bass that sounds most natural which MUST include mid and upper bass refinement. Boom and slam is fine for rock and roll and party speakers; I listen to acoustic jazz and Baroque chamber music and full orchestra symphonies mostly these days so accuracy, resolution/definition and articulation (subtle nuance) are higher in priority these days.
Thanks to all; keep the ideas and experiences coming; this is why I am here after all. No sense trying to reinvent the wheel so to speak when others have already "been there, done that"...
Cheers!
Perhaps this one in BR : Peerless by Tymphany 830452 10" XLS Subwoofer
And this is not a borring one sealed and had always good inputs : Peerless by Tymphany 830668 10" Paper Cone SLS Subwoofer
After a PA could do the trick, why not a 15" Goldwood (see Pano's OB) in (short) open bafle.
Problem is always the VAS WAF if not a basement loudspeaker project !
And this is not a borring one sealed and had always good inputs : Peerless by Tymphany 830668 10" Paper Cone SLS Subwoofer
After a PA could do the trick, why not a 15" Goldwood (see Pano's OB) in (short) open bafle.
Problem is always the VAS WAF if not a basement loudspeaker project !
HAH! Good one! I have NO wife! Only the dog; she won't care! BUT; this is from my 3 1/2 way...I just decided my small Satoris were just WAY more musical the the SB29's...I want to keep my 33 liter boxes. I have a SB subwoofer that some people have used as high as 800 Hz with reasonable success.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/8in SB23MFCL45-4 rev.1.pdf
I'm afraid it won't do real justice to the mid or upper bass that I am seeking though.
The new ETON Symphony II has a paper cone 11 inch in my price range; I will see what the calculators and models say it might do in my box.
I LOVE the Eton sound; had many smaller drivers back years ago. I would LOVE to get the sandwich cone 11 inch but it costs too much for much for this project also. Eton has a wimpy drive system and motors compared to Satori, Scan Speak and others but I still like their signature sound regardless.
Eton 11-612 Orchestra woofer
(paper cone)
Right now; the NE 265W looks to be the best match for my needs; should do well in my existing box and people that have used it have reported favorably. Still looking and researching now...
Thanks!; keep the ideas and experiences coming...
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/8in SB23MFCL45-4 rev.1.pdf
I'm afraid it won't do real justice to the mid or upper bass that I am seeking though.
The new ETON Symphony II has a paper cone 11 inch in my price range; I will see what the calculators and models say it might do in my box.
I LOVE the Eton sound; had many smaller drivers back years ago. I would LOVE to get the sandwich cone 11 inch but it costs too much for much for this project also. Eton has a wimpy drive system and motors compared to Satori, Scan Speak and others but I still like their signature sound regardless.
Eton 11-612 Orchestra woofer
(paper cone)
Right now; the NE 265W looks to be the best match for my needs; should do well in my existing box and people that have used it have reported favorably. Still looking and researching now...
Thanks!; keep the ideas and experiences coming...
new Eton 11 inch paper cone has a very big Vas so I could only use it closed in my box; f3 mid 50's; I'll keep looking. I prefer lower 50's if possible...
Joseph Crowe advised me the Eton paper, I trust this guy. But I remember it's a little expensive speaker, all being relativ of course.
I will be curious to see the -f6 & -f10 with the little Peereless I linked that also exist in 12 !
Please, make a low pass on the Fostex for doggy 😛, they are sensible & loved animals🙂 (well wives too but they can say "stop" and don't hear above 20k unlike dogs & cats)
Frankly : think twice to the Faital 15PR400 please, looks at Gravsen & others inputs about it, have a look for its use and feedback in his OB last design for information about this unit.
I will be curious to see the -f6 & -f10 with the little Peereless I linked that also exist in 12 !
Please, make a low pass on the Fostex for doggy 😛, they are sensible & loved animals🙂 (well wives too but they can say "stop" and don't hear above 20k unlike dogs & cats)
Frankly : think twice to the Faital 15PR400 please, looks at Gravsen & others inputs about it, have a look for its use and feedback in his OB last design for information about this unit.
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She likes Bach, Mahler, Miles Davis, SuperTramp...ha ha, anything really; doesn't seem to mind the Fostex at over 100 dB at 20 KHz.
Funny thing; dogs are WAY smarter than we give them credit for. I was playing a CD one day and it started to skip like a an old school LP vinyl record; same few seconds of track playing over and over again...she got up and IMMEDIATELY looked into the room where the stereo is and cocked her head sideways like the dog from his master's voice! She KNEW that music wasn't right! Smart dog!
I actually have that Fostex with a custom 2nd order HP; -3 dB ABOVE 15 KHz. This gets the level down to match the Pluvia 7PHD right where I need it for my old ears.
Back to the woofers; I like the sound of paper cones the best over all. Of course; the best ones are very highly specialized.
I have had MANY drivers over the years; literally over 100 easily. I really do miss the Audax Aerogel (HDA); I think the had a really good thing going there. I guess in Europe you can still some of these; in the US and Canada; no one seems to stock them at all anymore. Some of the fiber cones do pretty good. Metal cones are OK for woofers but I don't generally do not like the mids with metal cones (exceptions as always of course).
Any other ideas; 9 inch to 11 inch that would work well in my 33 liters? Again, closed, vented, Aperiodic all up for consideration here.
No real hurry either...the new Satori TexTreme drivers should really be something! Break-up modes are supposed to be WAY more controlled with this cone material. If I wait long enough, maybe they will do a 8, 9, 10, 11 inch with TexTreme...THAT would be VERY cool for sure!
I could do two per side of the new TexTreme 6 inch Satoris; US deliveries expected mid July...BUT, price is excessive; especially two per side. They would probably do GREAT in my box though; dynamic, deep, clean, expressive, natural and exciting...everything I really want!...
Funny thing; dogs are WAY smarter than we give them credit for. I was playing a CD one day and it started to skip like a an old school LP vinyl record; same few seconds of track playing over and over again...she got up and IMMEDIATELY looked into the room where the stereo is and cocked her head sideways like the dog from his master's voice! She KNEW that music wasn't right! Smart dog!
I actually have that Fostex with a custom 2nd order HP; -3 dB ABOVE 15 KHz. This gets the level down to match the Pluvia 7PHD right where I need it for my old ears.
Back to the woofers; I like the sound of paper cones the best over all. Of course; the best ones are very highly specialized.
I have had MANY drivers over the years; literally over 100 easily. I really do miss the Audax Aerogel (HDA); I think the had a really good thing going there. I guess in Europe you can still some of these; in the US and Canada; no one seems to stock them at all anymore. Some of the fiber cones do pretty good. Metal cones are OK for woofers but I don't generally do not like the mids with metal cones (exceptions as always of course).
Any other ideas; 9 inch to 11 inch that would work well in my 33 liters? Again, closed, vented, Aperiodic all up for consideration here.
No real hurry either...the new Satori TexTreme drivers should really be something! Break-up modes are supposed to be WAY more controlled with this cone material. If I wait long enough, maybe they will do a 8, 9, 10, 11 inch with TexTreme...THAT would be VERY cool for sure!
I could do two per side of the new TexTreme 6 inch Satoris; US deliveries expected mid July...BUT, price is excessive; especially two per side. They would probably do GREAT in my box though; dynamic, deep, clean, expressive, natural and exciting...everything I really want!...
Bloody S...t, I have the same musical tastes than doggy... I knew I have a problem 😀
hope you had the time to listened to the Baroq material I talked about : really one of the best voice I heard for that partition... just crazy to test drivers, even better than jazz voices !
hope you had the time to listened to the Baroq material I talked about : really one of the best voice I heard for that partition... just crazy to test drivers, even better than jazz voices !
I really like metal driver for woofer or mids because I listen to a huge diferent music style but main are Jazz, rock, classical in that order... but also A LOT of different musics, I have a special appetence for traditional music of all sort, instruments as voices : illustration, indian arythmic but still in the rythm music Keith Jarett piano like? Yes but no- japanese vented instruments as european for classicals; Sometimes Organ pianos; sometimes asian drums and so on : a true audiophile nightmare cause I all listen'ed= to them unpluged... not saying I have a tenor opera mate and I spent all my young years in jazz club with cheaks, alcohool and good bands ! Ah... when the hifi MUST be a young yeats reminder...and then you especially remember most the music... then it becomes ...a complex quest, lol !