Not having any success with a mtm build.
1. The woofers (6.5" flutes - 8ohm) do not go very high and what is up there is pitchy. Although, this time I realized the flutes do have robust bass if they are rolled off quickly.
2. Next tried to move the SB response lower, that was an issue and no matter what I tired they were no near the manufacturer's test results.
I assumed the mtm configuration is off the table, i,e, not enough face/baffle around the tweeter and decided with not much to lose here removed the mtm baffles and will try a tmm layout with the same drivers.
Started to think about a layout on new baffles, and almost started the cutouts but stopped and questioned: is an arbitrary layout going to have the same results.
A more direct question should I maximize the area around the tweeter?
1. The woofers (6.5" flutes - 8ohm) do not go very high and what is up there is pitchy. Although, this time I realized the flutes do have robust bass if they are rolled off quickly.
2. Next tried to move the SB response lower, that was an issue and no matter what I tired they were no near the manufacturer's test results.
I assumed the mtm configuration is off the table, i,e, not enough face/baffle around the tweeter and decided with not much to lose here removed the mtm baffles and will try a tmm layout with the same drivers.
Started to think about a layout on new baffles, and almost started the cutouts but stopped and questioned: is an arbitrary layout going to have the same results.
A more direct question should I maximize the area around the tweeter?
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Response on data sheets is measured on IEC baffles, no news there I hope. Judging from the pic your baffle size should be just OK to use the SB in it's working range. What is your target fc? I would certainly not use it below 2k and in this setup 2.5k would be my safe bet.
If you stick with the current woofers,
A 30 mm tweeter may be a relatively sensible way of going lower.
I think the Sb acoustics are good to 2.5KHz or thereabouts, getting a nice transition at 2KHz against two woofers which I guess are approaching 90dBs sensitivity as a pair will be problematical.
Tweeters to look at are possibly wavecor TW030WA12 or Audax TW034X0, maybe there is a large tweeter in the Dayton line-up that fits the bill.
Maybe Dave over at Planet10 can suggest something sensible.
A 30 mm tweeter may be a relatively sensible way of going lower.
I think the Sb acoustics are good to 2.5KHz or thereabouts, getting a nice transition at 2KHz against two woofers which I guess are approaching 90dBs sensitivity as a pair will be problematical.
Tweeters to look at are possibly wavecor TW030WA12 or Audax TW034X0, maybe there is a large tweeter in the Dayton line-up that fits the bill.
Maybe Dave over at Planet10 can suggest something sensible.
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Ray, Mark,
Thank you both, that intel will save a lot of frustration.
Using active xo so will go as low as possible without damaging the tweeter.
I do happen to have an Wavcore 30WA11 and one RS28F-4.
Looks like the Wavecor has slightly lower fc.
Will group the speakers with 3/8" spacing (each)
Doug
Thank you both, that intel will save a lot of frustration.
Using active xo so will go as low as possible without damaging the tweeter.
I do happen to have an Wavcore 30WA11 and one RS28F-4.
Looks like the Wavecor has slightly lower fc.
Will group the speakers with 3/8" spacing (each)
Doug
A few observations based on my experience using both the 6.5" and 8" Silver Flutes:
1. Yeah, they can sound shouty if the baffle step compensation (BSC) isn't just right. The trick is applying enough BSC so they don't sound shouty while at the same time not rolling them off too soon. I couldn't do it with just a standard 2nd or 3rd order filter and had to use an additional BSC filter to meet my BSC and frequency roll off targets.
2. I'm not sure what you mean by "not near the manufacturer's test results". Do you mean Thiele/Small parameters or measured frequency response?
3. I don't think changing the tweeter or going to a TMM will make a whole lot of difference as they problem (IMHO) is really with the Silver Flute's response.
Anyway, if you want to pursue this any farther keep posting. I did everything passive, but active is OK too.
ernperkins,
Apologizes for the delay, was replacing the baffles as mentioned, the new layout is TMM 2-6.5" SFs and a wavecor W11. Very happy with the new appearance and hopeful that the crossover can be sorted out.
On the previous mtm attempt, I also tried to tame the dual 6.5"s with a heavy .5mh inductor -- in addition to the active xo. The bass was great and an inspiration to keep trying, but there there were other problems, cancellation issues I guess.
2. I was incorrect, and now know that the SB29 is only good down to 2,000hz.
3. Already changed them up to a TMM and liking the look of the over-sized Wavecor tweeter.
**
I think I found a winner box the 8" flute. One noticeable improvement was a P-core inductor for the woofer.
W20RC38 / Morel CAT 298 [or MDT 28]
Did you post on your on your SF builds?
Many thanks, Doug
Apologizes for the delay, was replacing the baffles as mentioned, the new layout is TMM 2-6.5" SFs and a wavecor W11. Very happy with the new appearance and hopeful that the crossover can be sorted out.
On the previous mtm attempt, I also tried to tame the dual 6.5"s with a heavy .5mh inductor -- in addition to the active xo. The bass was great and an inspiration to keep trying, but there there were other problems, cancellation issues I guess.
2. I was incorrect, and now know that the SB29 is only good down to 2,000hz.
3. Already changed them up to a TMM and liking the look of the over-sized Wavecor tweeter.
**
I think I found a winner box the 8" flute. One noticeable improvement was a P-core inductor for the woofer.
W20RC38 / Morel CAT 298 [or MDT 28]
Did you post on your on your SF builds?
Many thanks, Doug
Finished one, so far so good,,,huge improvement in bass and overall sound quality.
Now using a 12db xo no caps, etc., set at 1,500hz.
This may not mean anything but did not touch the gating for these, although it seems the lower the better. I really don't know tho.
The green line is reverse phase and sounds slightly better, but delay is needed.
If so, I'll open-up an extra 2x4 minidsp and dive into that.
Now using a 12db xo no caps, etc., set at 1,500hz.
This may not mean anything but did not touch the gating for these, although it seems the lower the better. I really don't know tho.
The green line is reverse phase and sounds slightly better, but delay is needed.
If so, I'll open-up an extra 2x4 minidsp and dive into that.
Looking good! That Wavecor W11 has gotten great reviews and is one I have lusted over for some time.
I did see that thread about the W20RC38. In fact, I simmed the Madisound crossover you posted with my W20 measurements: It worked well and fit a LR4 @ 2500 Hz target very well. It does have 3 dB BSC which I'm not sure is enough for the W20. A lot of that depends on personal preference and speaker location.
No, I didn't post any of my builds. The W17 was done several years ago and gifted. The W20 build was part of a speaker contest. The rules limited the maximum cabinet volume and cost (= speaker drivers + purchased waveguides + crossover components). But the main challenge was in the crossover: we could use a maximum of 5 components per speaker! Ben (wolf_teeth here) hosts the contest yearly with a different theme every year.
It's great fun. Here's a pic of my build. Drivers are the W20RC38-8 and the Seas 27TDFC mounted in a Visaton WG-148 waveguide.
I did see that thread about the W20RC38. In fact, I simmed the Madisound crossover you posted with my W20 measurements: It worked well and fit a LR4 @ 2500 Hz target very well. It does have 3 dB BSC which I'm not sure is enough for the W20. A lot of that depends on personal preference and speaker location.
No, I didn't post any of my builds. The W17 was done several years ago and gifted. The W20 build was part of a speaker contest. The rules limited the maximum cabinet volume and cost (= speaker drivers + purchased waveguides + crossover components). But the main challenge was in the crossover: we could use a maximum of 5 components per speaker! Ben (wolf_teeth here) hosts the contest yearly with a different theme every year.
It's great fun. Here's a pic of my build. Drivers are the W20RC38-8 and the Seas 27TDFC mounted in a Visaton WG-148 waveguide.
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HELP @ 3,000hz
Thanks Ed!
I would like to get up there, looked at the trip/mileage a few times and may go someday.
However last summer received a tip about the DC Audio Fest that takes place in the fall. Unbelievably the venue was at a metro-train-stop [DC's 100 mile commuter train] that I pass twice a day; all I had to do was step off the train 1 stop before from my normal routine and walk across the street!!
The Fest is a world class event, over a 100 rooms; $5,000 - $500,000 systems. Mind-boggling, but there was a high percentage of smaller 2-way builds with 6"woofer/tweeter, very pricey tho, $2,500 per speaker was the lowest I found.
****
Ok having some good luck with the budget build, now I remember why I like the flutes, they do have some unique sounds/tones/bass. The first thing I did was target the 600hz hump 3db, that alone is a HUGE improvement!
There was something going on that I couldn't resolve, well above the 1.5K xo point, up around 3k a short/high/hump, I tried many xo combinations [minidsp] and could not see this when either woofer/tweeter was disconnected, so it must be a interaction?
Any thoughts on this? The room, maybe the Adcom 7300 [5 channel] amplifier? Please don't tell me it's that darn baffle!!
Thanks!
Thanks Ed!
I would like to get up there, looked at the trip/mileage a few times and may go someday.
However last summer received a tip about the DC Audio Fest that takes place in the fall. Unbelievably the venue was at a metro-train-stop [DC's 100 mile commuter train] that I pass twice a day; all I had to do was step off the train 1 stop before from my normal routine and walk across the street!!
The Fest is a world class event, over a 100 rooms; $5,000 - $500,000 systems. Mind-boggling, but there was a high percentage of smaller 2-way builds with 6"woofer/tweeter, very pricey tho, $2,500 per speaker was the lowest I found.
****
Ok having some good luck with the budget build, now I remember why I like the flutes, they do have some unique sounds/tones/bass. The first thing I did was target the 600hz hump 3db, that alone is a HUGE improvement!
There was something going on that I couldn't resolve, well above the 1.5K xo point, up around 3k a short/high/hump, I tried many xo combinations [minidsp] and could not see this when either woofer/tweeter was disconnected, so it must be a interaction?
Any thoughts on this? The room, maybe the Adcom 7300 [5 channel] amplifier? Please don't tell me it's that darn baffle!!
Thanks!
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Gave this a good try; had to separate the drivers: 1200hz/1400hz and used 18db/BW. This the best so far:
A minidsp seems like a lot to take on without some kind of training but experimented with all the xo settings, BW, LR, Bessel -- but ended up same place where I left off yesterday. Although added in equalization in the channels. REALLY like the wavecor now with the 2db add around 3,000hz.
Bass - is very, very nice.
Keep forgetting to mention that I added a 33uf protection cap for the 4ohm tweeter, did not notice any shift, maybe it is just too large.
Also put the adcom 7300 back on the shelf, using Rotel(s) 980BX.
I'll keep tweaking and dialing-in.......
Bass - is very, very nice.
Keep forgetting to mention that I added a 33uf protection cap for the 4ohm tweeter, did not notice any shift, maybe it is just too large.
Also put the adcom 7300 back on the shelf, using Rotel(s) 980BX.
I'll keep tweaking and dialing-in.......