This is not a fair comparison at all. You have to make their frequency responses as similar as possible to make a better judgment, and preferably in a finished system with the same midbass. Note that the SB has a far more extended low end, which may have made it sound more natural in your setup. In a finished design, you will definitely need a different filter for each of these tweeters to achieve your target acoustic LR4 response.
jAy
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Just an update - I ended up kicking both the SB29 and the HDS tweeters to the curb after hearing the SEAS 27TDFC in my setup. I have a Dayton RS28F on order to compare to the SEAS, but I'd be very surprised if it sounded better than the rather amazing SEAS tweeter.
I forgot to mention that I'm using a DEQX crossover unit, so I'm able to get perfectly flat frequency response and perfect phase/group delay for all drivers, especially since I dumped my Dayton Microphone and got an Earthworks M23. Amazing what a better measuring instrument can do for your sound....
I forgot to mention that I'm using a DEQX crossover unit, so I'm able to get perfectly flat frequency response and perfect phase/group delay for all drivers, especially since I dumped my Dayton Microphone and got an Earthworks M23. Amazing what a better measuring instrument can do for your sound....
Is your Dayton mic calibrated? I find it unlikely that the M23 is "better" in any significant way sufficiently to yield an (real) audible improvement to sound quality. Perhaps if the frequency response of the two mics is not calibrated the same, one would yield measurements that lead you to a crossover that has a sound you prefer, but I certainly wouldn't attribute it to "quality" of the microphone.
I am interested what you think of the RS28F compared to the 27TDFC. One thing seems clear: the 28F should be able to cross lower with less distortion.
I am interested what you think of the RS28F compared to the 27TDFC. One thing seems clear: the 28F should be able to cross lower with less distortion.
The problem is that the dayton mic calibration data couldn't be imported into my DEQX, so it was better to just get a more linear mic. Plus, the M23 has much better phase response, which is important with the DEQX, since it corrects phase and timing as well as frequency.
I have the RS28's in house right now, but will have to wait a week till I'm back from my trip to London before I can drop them in and do measurements and give them a listen.
I have the RS28's in house right now, but will have to wait a week till I'm back from my trip to London before I can drop them in and do measurements and give them a listen.
Where'd you get the phase cal of the EMM6 and M23 done? I haven't come across any labs offering that service. But having phase as well as magnitude cal would be handy for many of the measurements I do.
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but unless you bought your Earthworks mic from DEQX, its calibration data cannot be imported into your PDC/HDC (the format of the cal file is proprietary - not txt). Since both the ECM-8000 & M23, when purchased from DEQX, come with importable calibration files, I don't see the rationale of opting for the more expensive mic.
Yes I am agree
There is a difference between a classic electret microphone and a real measurement microphone : noise, phase, spl/frequency resolution, distortion, accuracy. I own a B&K2231 and I am very happy with it. You can see very subtle changes (0.1/0.2dB) in the signal and I can make very precise setup.But I think some high end electret microphone (e.g. clio microphone) could be used to design great systems.
I have been using the SB29RDCN 4 ohms NeFeB tweeter because of a combination of great sound, modest size, and 94db @2.83V. New 6.5" midbass speakers like the Lambda TD6H can match this efficiency with wide bandwidth for a TM. The extra dynamics of 94db vs. 89db is very important to me. The small size is very important to me for optimizing MTM spacing.
I think a "very good" high efficiency tweeter can create superior dynamic sound in a completed speaker compared to to a "very, very good" low efficiency tweeter.
I think a "very good" high efficiency tweeter can create superior dynamic sound in a completed speaker compared to to a "very, very good" low efficiency tweeter.
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Finally was able to get the time to drop in the RS28F, and luckily it was a straight drop in to the 27TDFC cutout. Holding it in my hand, it was obvious that the RS28F is built to a higher standard. But build quality does not always translate into sound quality.
In this case, the RS28F lives up to it's reputation as a great tweeter. I like it quite a bit better than the 27TDFC, which is impressive because the SEAS was one of the best tweeters I've heard. But the RS28F is even smoother and more relaxed and open sounding, with equal (or better) detail. Which is surprising because I felt that that mesh grill would negatively affect the sound. But, even straight out of the box, with no burn in, the new tweeter already sounds quite a bit better.
And this is the least efficient tweeter I've owned in a while.
In this case, the RS28F lives up to it's reputation as a great tweeter. I like it quite a bit better than the 27TDFC, which is impressive because the SEAS was one of the best tweeters I've heard. But the RS28F is even smoother and more relaxed and open sounding, with equal (or better) detail. Which is surprising because I felt that that mesh grill would negatively affect the sound. But, even straight out of the box, with no burn in, the new tweeter already sounds quite a bit better.
And this is the least efficient tweeter I've owned in a while.
That's nice to hear. From the start I've had high expectations of the RS28F - when I first saw it as a product on the web page I was excited. I knew the RS28A had a lot of potential to be a top tweeter, they [Usher, producing for Dayton] had seemed to recently get QA issues [with the early RS28 tweeters] under control and the combination of the advanced motor design + solid build quality impressed me. I'm not generally a fan of metal tweeters and I had been thinking: if only Dayton could get a house brand version of the Usher cloth dome tweeter that everyone who tried seemed to like so much, we'd have a ScanSpeak killer at 1/4 the cost. I think I was right. I've got a few of them myself, and am considering pairing it with both the Peerless HDS Nomex 6.5" woofer and the Exodus Anarchy XBL^2 woofer in various designs...
To hear that you like it better than the tweeter that you like better, than the tweeter that you like better than the HDS tweeter is pretty high praise Combine that with the fact that people have crossed it over as low as 1Khz and LIKED it that low is also encouraging. The only drawback I can see (if you don't require high sensitivity) is that it's not a small faceplate Neo design. But, it can go low enough to compensate...
Every time I've started a design [for myself] in the past several years I've always been too disappointed to complete it. I've got to just bite the bullet and finish one, even if it's not what I'd hoped it to be, at least I can be listening to good music again.
I have worked on a few commercial designs over the past decade, which I have been pleased with - but for myself, I'm just TOO picky. I'm beginning to wonder, maybe I just don't like "very good" speakers and I should go back to super cheaply built paper two-ways that I enjoyed so much from the late 1970's through the early 1990's...
My friend who has owned a speaker company for more than 30 years also doesn't keep speakers at home for himself. Last month, I found myself thinking - hmm - I bet somebody who has a cheese factory doesn't eat a lot of cheese at home after a decade or two of being in that business...
Back to your present tweeter experience - I'd not put too much weight on first impressions, but rather, after you've gotten comfortable with it and listened for a while, if it doesn't have qualities that bother you, or seem significantly insufficient - then I'd say the verdict is in, and it's two thumbs up.
I think it's safe to say though, that the RS28F and the RS225 are two drivers that have both proved themselves to be class leading drivers and outstanding values. A great combination. I would not hesitate to recommend either regardless of your budget. Even if you can afford $500 tweeters and $250 woofers, the only advantage might end up being the satisfaction gotten from owning more expensive parts.
To hear that you like it better than the tweeter that you like better, than the tweeter that you like better than the HDS tweeter is pretty high praise
Combine that with the fact that people have crossed it over as low as 1Khz and LIKED it that low is also encouraging. The only drawback I can see (if you don't require high sensitivity) is that it's not a small faceplate Neo design. But, it can go low enough to compensate...Every time I've started a design [for myself] in the past several years I've always been too disappointed to complete it. I've got to just bite the bullet and finish one, even if it's not what I'd hoped it to be, at least I can be listening to good music again.
I have worked on a few commercial designs over the past decade, which I have been pleased with - but for myself, I'm just TOO picky. I'm beginning to wonder, maybe I just don't like "very good" speakers and I should go back to super cheaply built paper two-ways that I enjoyed so much from the late 1970's through the early 1990's...
My friend who has owned a speaker company for more than 30 years also doesn't keep speakers at home for himself. Last month, I found myself thinking - hmm - I bet somebody who has a cheese factory doesn't eat a lot of cheese at home after a decade or two of being in that business...
Back to your present tweeter experience - I'd not put too much weight on first impressions, but rather, after you've gotten comfortable with it and listened for a while, if it doesn't have qualities that bother you, or seem significantly insufficient - then I'd say the verdict is in, and it's two thumbs up.
I think it's safe to say though, that the RS28F and the RS225 are two drivers that have both proved themselves to be class leading drivers and outstanding values. A great combination. I would not hesitate to recommend either regardless of your budget. Even if you can afford $500 tweeters and $250 woofers, the only advantage might end up being the satisfaction gotten from owning more expensive parts.
I think it's safe to say though, that the RS28F and the RS225 are two drivers that have both proved themselves to be class leading drivers and outstanding values. A great combination. I would not hesitate to recommend either regardless of your budget. Even if you can afford $500 tweeters and $250 woofers, the only advantage might end up being the satisfaction gotten from owning more expensive parts.
I think many will disagree with you. Even measurements of OW1 or expensive ribbon tweeters show them to be superior in some aspects.
Its nice to enjoy value dayton products but lets not exaggerate their performance to be equal to "no cost" solutions.
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I have the SB29 waiting for a project, what did the 27TDFC do so much better?
Im still shopping for the DEQX, Congrats on owning what I think its a key piece of electronics in creating the best XOs period!!
Oh, on the contrary, I think, at least for those two products, they are better than some "top dollar" "price is no object" options, and equal to most.
Just how loud would you expect an OW1 to play crossed over at 1.5Khz, or, 1Khz as the OP currently has his RS28F set?
I haven't heard a ribbon implemented in a speaker design yet that didn't sound "tizzy".
critofour,
yes, my speakers used to be the Elsinores but I hated the peerless nomex driver in the midrange, and I disliked the HDS as a tweeter even more. So I replaced the nomex mids with a SEAS Nextel driver, which was much more to my liking. Then I went to the Sb29 tweeter for a while, then the SEAS 27TDFC for a while, and now the Dayton RS28F.
doug20,
The SB29 is a very fine tweeter, but its more directional than all the others, and I do a lot of off-axis listening. I like the 27TDFC because it has that relaxed presentation with good detail and better off axis response. If I were using a smaller mid driver I'd probably keep it. But with a 7" mid, I am finding that a 1khz crossover is really special sounding, and the midrange driver sounds a lot better in this range.
yes, my speakers used to be the Elsinores but I hated the peerless nomex driver in the midrange, and I disliked the HDS as a tweeter even more. So I replaced the nomex mids with a SEAS Nextel driver, which was much more to my liking. Then I went to the Sb29 tweeter for a while, then the SEAS 27TDFC for a while, and now the Dayton RS28F.
doug20,
The SB29 is a very fine tweeter, but its more directional than all the others, and I do a lot of off-axis listening. I like the 27TDFC because it has that relaxed presentation with good detail and better off axis response. If I were using a smaller mid driver I'd probably keep it. But with a 7" mid, I am finding that a 1khz crossover is really special sounding, and the midrange driver sounds a lot better in this range.
But that is a specifc XO you require. If the XO is above 2KHz and outside of the critical voicing range handled purely by a mid woofer then high end tweeters like the 9600, OW1.
Your comments before seemed to be general if they are only in the context of the XO below 1500 then I agree (Sorry if I assumed wrong). I did already post that the RS28F is a great value dome, no doubt its a very good choice and all posts about it have been positive. Im waiting to see it mounted in a properly designed waveguide.
As for your ribbon comment, it definitely reads as 100% subjective choice so its shouldnt be used as fact. You need to listen to quality ribbons, Neopro5i has no tizzy IMO and the RAAL high end is way beyond good. Ask Jim Salk about the RAAL upgrade. You can check out discussions on audiocircle.com. Domes have no chance in keeping up with ribbons if you think about the design difference.
Never read a comment about the RAAL having any flaws period. Measurements definitely show it to be superior (CSDs, polar plots). Somethings are worth the price tag.
Good to know about the off axis issues with the SB29!
Thanks again and its interesting you have domes going down to 1KHz period. I wonder how much SPL you can throw at them??
Tyson, how low of a crossover did you try before switching out the Peerless Nomex mids? Are you still using the Peerless woofers x2 on the bottoms?
I wonder if the 5.25" Peerless HDS Nomex would sound better - or maybe - is it the sound characteristics of Nomex cones that was unpleasant for you above 1Khz?
There is some rising F3 distortion approaching up to 2Khz on those woofers, according to Zaph's tests, but, it's still fairly low level...
I wonder if the 5.25" Peerless HDS Nomex would sound better - or maybe - is it the sound characteristics of Nomex cones that was unpleasant for you above 1Khz?
There is some rising F3 distortion approaching up to 2Khz on those woofers, according to Zaph's tests, but, it's still fairly low level...
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