I also read that the NE123 is very good considering. Maybe not Satori good but I have the NE225W08HS 8 inch; some of the best sounding 8 inch I think I have ever heard. They are certainly well designed if they are anything like my NE225.
By the way; I did have my SB12's on a X/O before with a decent tweeter; they just didn't do it for me. This was months ago, I just put them back on the shelf and ordered a second pair of the MA Pluvia 7PHD...much, much better musically. To get the most out of the P7P, you have to have a really good crossover design and use really higher quality parts.
Again, sorry for the rants; just get overly excited sometimes...
By the way; I did have my SB12's on a X/O before with a decent tweeter; they just didn't do it for me. This was months ago, I just put them back on the shelf and ordered a second pair of the MA Pluvia 7PHD...much, much better musically. To get the most out of the P7P, you have to have a really good crossover design and use really higher quality parts.
Again, sorry for the rants; just get overly excited sometimes...
Many years ago an experienced DIY'er which I highly respect, upgraded from Seas Prestige to Seas Excel and then concluded that "from now on I will never ever recommend anyone to build anything with lesser quality drivers, it's not worth the time and the effort, from now on I'll only use Scanspeak and Seas Excel, I'm done with budget drivers". I've been through that same process myself, I fiddled around with Vifa, Peerless and Seas Prestige for years, and today I only use Seas Excel, Scanspeak Revelator and Audio Technology (and Wavecor), because 99% of the time they sound SO much better than budget alternatives. You may disagree and I don't mean to offend anyone, and of course there are exceptions, but I feel safe and relaxed when I see "Revelator" or "Excel" on the label.
Loudspeakers and drivers may be 90% black art, but there is an element of science in there as well, and knowing what type of higher order math that lies behind how you calculate and build a car suspension (weight, frequencies, shock absorbers, springs ... and Bode diagrams) with a perfect "transient respons" to bumps in the road, then I also know how much advanced science there is in a pair of well designed and well behaved speaker drivers. "That'll do" just doesn't work in this business. The people at Scanspeak and Seas know what they're doing, they know that there has to be a connection between price and performance, else they will be out of business.
Loudspeakers and drivers may be 90% black art, but there is an element of science in there as well, and knowing what type of higher order math that lies behind how you calculate and build a car suspension (weight, frequencies, shock absorbers, springs ... and Bode diagrams) with a perfect "transient respons" to bumps in the road, then I also know how much advanced science there is in a pair of well designed and well behaved speaker drivers. "That'll do" just doesn't work in this business. The people at Scanspeak and Seas know what they're doing, they know that there has to be a connection between price and performance, else they will be out of business.
Very well said; much more polite than me! SB and Wavcor share some of the same design Engineers that were with Vifa and Scan Speak. I bet the Illuminators are great! The Satoris are sort of modeled on them, at least somewhat. My NE225 also looks very much like an Illuminator.
Back to Seas, in the budget area, has anyone heard the Curv 4 inch models? (2 FR and 1 MR). From what I have read they have detail and warmth at the same time; this is not an easy thing to do for sure, especially in a lower price range.
Back to Seas, in the budget area, has anyone heard the Curv 4 inch models? (2 FR and 1 MR). From what I have read they have detail and warmth at the same time; this is not an easy thing to do for sure, especially in a lower price range.
It might be interesting to try something different from the usual Scandinavian designs. Troels Gravesen has moved to Italian PA stuff.
They are generally higher in efficiency and have a different sonic signature than the Scandinavians. They are I believe more dynamic but probably less smooth sounding.
Faital-3WC
Oon
They are generally higher in efficiency and have a different sonic signature than the Scandinavians. They are I believe more dynamic but probably less smooth sounding.
Faital-3WC
Oon
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Actually in many ways, the result you had was in a way what I expected. I just wanted to be sure that it was caused a flawed experiment.
The monacor is actually a much more expensive driver than the SBA after I went to check it out. So it doesn't surprise that it sounds better.
SBA and monacor is designed as mid bass duty, so compromises have to be made to ensure they do that job well, including longer voice coil, more rigid cone etc. I have the aluminium cone 12PAC, but if purely mids concerned, I prefer the Faitalpro 3fe22 and 4fe32.
All I can say is if you haven't tried a italian PA driver for mids you should give it a shot.
And as for the full range. I primarily play in that area so I can attest to it. I actually have the first Gen markaudio alpair.
I think the reason the full range still sounds better is they have a wider range and they can cross higher. Many mid domes still expect you to cross at about 2kHz. Whereas I feel a more ideal place is 5K. Away from the telephone band.
Oon
OK, new story. I told you Satori and Mark Audio are the ones to beat. Yep, for sure! For the money; there are no better sounding drivers on the planet at this price range...PERIOD! I have an entirely different experiment going; new boxes, cheapest amp, low Fi streaming audio...blah blah blah...they STILL blow everything else out of the water in natural and musical ACCURACY...PERIOD!!!
ANYONE that thinks that measurements are more important than listening tests by seasoned veterans in the design and recording industry are just a bunch of VERY mis-informed and delusional BOZOS!!!
ANYONE that thinks that measurements are more important than listening tests by seasoned veterans in the design and recording industry are just a bunch of VERY mis-informed and delusional BOZOS!!!
Well, yes, again we MUST have tests and measurements. Maybe it is nothing more than personal opinion after all. My point I guess is that all of the pro sound guys, recording Engineers, music Conductors, band Directors and a whole slew of others use their hearing and trust their ears. What is the end goal? To make the recorded and reproduced experience the most life like...real music...
Yes, my exuberance and excitement are overwhelming at times! Sorry, when I have a aha moment; I sometimes way over do it...apologies once again...just an excitable thing for me...
Cheers and may your listening pleasures equal or exceed mine!
(perhaps it is my COVID isolation that drives my "madness" for this!!???)...
Yes, my exuberance and excitement are overwhelming at times! Sorry, when I have a aha moment; I sometimes way over do it...apologies once again...just an excitable thing for me...
Cheers and may your listening pleasures equal or exceed mine!
(perhaps it is my COVID isolation that drives my "madness" for this!!???)...
There is much to be said for this. Not least because this is one of the most significant differences and at the same time it is something that can be and will be adjusted in practice, so why let it colour comparisons.
Drivers come with their own set of minor resonances, and these don't count for much after said adjustments.
Yes, I agree with this as well. However, I listen full range at first with no filters very much on purpose. This helps me get a much better idea of where I think I would like to start with X/O design. Problem drivers usually need a steeper slope but I much prefer 1st order whenever possible. This is my logic FWIW...
Why?
(and don't think that my conversation here means your rules breaking posts have gone unnoticed)
I have found that many drivers sound different than what their response curves "indicate". Some curves look very smooth yet the driver doesn't sound all that good to me so either I put it back on the shelf or do a very narrow band for instance on a mid. Some response curves show lots of wiggles, peaks, dips, etc. But when you listen to them, they actually sound quite good and what you think may problem areas are barely noticeable. I like to get a sense of how high or low I think I can do a crossover and if I think I can get away with a 1st order. I have had problem drivers that could be tamed but they required quite a bit of fancy crossover work and sometimes it is really not worth that much extra effort or expense. Troels says something about you can't tell what a driver will sound like by looking at the curves; my logic also.
If I had to choose only one driver on the planet; what would it be? The original SB Satori MR16P midrange I think. It can go really low and high at the same time; sounds like a $1000 Accuton or better and has micro-detail out the wahzoo...It is 6 1/2 inch but don't let that scare you at all. It has much more definition and resolution than many 4 inch mids or full range...you absolutely MUST, give it very high quality crossover and amplifier to reach the full potential. Sorry again; I DO get VERY carried away sometimes; chalk it up to being retired with nothing better to do; especially during covid. My 11 year old dog and I have absolutely nothing better to do all except eat, sleep, listen to music and repeat over and over...
Peace and Cheers; just another American 60's and 70's love child and music critic...
Peace and Cheers; just another American 60's and 70's love child and music critic...
Oldspeakerguy, I am using the MW16P and have to agree they are pretty amazing. However I am not bringing them up too high. What do you consider their max top end frequency?
If I may jump in on this thread as it is related. I just purchased some SB12PFCR25 but have not listened to them yet. Does anyone have experience with them?
oldspkrguy, your methods are 'interesting', but I'd like your input on a couple of matters.
Please demonstrate that measuring and fixing the response first wouldn't be a good thing in that case.. I'm keeping in mind that it would be helpful to simplify what's going on by looking at the problem on its own, one at a time. Also some would doubt human ability to hear one problem through the other problem... Such issues sometimes apply to all humans, regardless of experience level.
Crossing first order without consideration is likely to be insufficient and leave some of the spice in the mix in most cases, and may go a ways to explain why you think there is so much going on here.
The measurement guys would agree that there are other differences. Take for instance the nature of cone breakup. If you must do this by ear, identifying this real difference might be even easier with a flat response.
Please demonstrate that measuring and fixing the response first wouldn't be a good thing in that case.. I'm keeping in mind that it would be helpful to simplify what's going on by looking at the problem on its own, one at a time. Also some would doubt human ability to hear one problem through the other problem... Such issues sometimes apply to all humans, regardless of experience level.
With breakup crossed out and response flattened, we have identified some of the main differences between similar drivers.
Crossing first order without consideration is likely to be insufficient and leave some of the spice in the mix in most cases, and may go a ways to explain why you think there is so much going on here.
I use the old tried and true method of fix one thing at a time; I just do it different than most people.
As for the MR16; it goes really high but the curve in this case is fairly accurate as far as I'm concerned. So, you can do an electrical 2nd order calculated in the low 2000's (maybe 22 to 2400) and still have plenty of output an octave above that. I don't worry about beaming so I tend to cross higher than most.
I know this isn't really answering peoples' questions very well; it's just that I have so many crossover components I play with until I am satisfied. Yes; I use the data just like everyone else but put way more importance on tone quality and balance as I hear it and not so much on what the measurements may say. For example; if there is a measured peak or dip that greatly affect the sound quality; I design around it or put the driver back and don't use it. But, some of these peaks or dips actually enhance the the sound rather than detract; call it character. I can't describe this very well in words; I just know when it sounds right. Many of my family and friends also generally agree when I do an A/B (musicians again). Take the case of tonal quality by two different musicians (same instrument, same music, different players); they sound different but how do you accurately describe this in words?
Sorry probably not a very good explanation but it's what comes to mind at the moment.
As for the MR16; it goes really high but the curve in this case is fairly accurate as far as I'm concerned. So, you can do an electrical 2nd order calculated in the low 2000's (maybe 22 to 2400) and still have plenty of output an octave above that. I don't worry about beaming so I tend to cross higher than most.
I know this isn't really answering peoples' questions very well; it's just that I have so many crossover components I play with until I am satisfied. Yes; I use the data just like everyone else but put way more importance on tone quality and balance as I hear it and not so much on what the measurements may say. For example; if there is a measured peak or dip that greatly affect the sound quality; I design around it or put the driver back and don't use it. But, some of these peaks or dips actually enhance the the sound rather than detract; call it character. I can't describe this very well in words; I just know when it sounds right. Many of my family and friends also generally agree when I do an A/B (musicians again). Take the case of tonal quality by two different musicians (same instrument, same music, different players); they sound different but how do you accurately describe this in words?
Sorry probably not a very good explanation but it's what comes to mind at the moment.
There's nothing wrong with approaching speaker design from a subjective point of view. However what we are getting here isn't the criteria for drivers that are good in all situations, but a list of drivers that don't sound bad using your unique methods.
If you were to qualify your statements as being about drivers that are easy to work with, especially useful when using only subjective design techniques, I feel others might see reason to limit their criticism to the stated topic, provided you make it clear...
If you were to qualify your statements as being about drivers that are easy to work with, especially useful when using only subjective design techniques, I feel others might see reason to limit their criticism to the stated topic, provided you make it clear...
The end goal is the same; get the best possible sound out of any one driver regardless of design or price range. I have all the time in the world to experiment and try different things and rather enjoy it so that is what I do. Some drivers are more difficult to work with and that is OK provided I still get the desired results. And yes; I do make detailed and accurate measurements from time to time if I feel the real need and yes I understand the math and science and also use the theory well established by those before us.
Again, I consider it an art form. Not everyone agrees on the same art; not everyone agrees on the musical aspects of speakers in general. What works for me obviously won't work for everyone. I have evolved my techniques over decades and am extremely happy with my results most of the time.
I like the analogy of a classical music Conductor or band Director; practice until you get it "right". I really do hear things and notice very subtle differences others tend to miss or ignore; that is how I can get away with my methods.
Again, I consider it an art form. Not everyone agrees on the same art; not everyone agrees on the musical aspects of speakers in general. What works for me obviously won't work for everyone. I have evolved my techniques over decades and am extremely happy with my results most of the time.
I like the analogy of a classical music Conductor or band Director; practice until you get it "right". I really do hear things and notice very subtle differences others tend to miss or ignore; that is how I can get away with my methods.