Sb acoustics Ara or something else?

[vassilis1984]

Hi friends!

Recently I finished my first project, a two way monitor with sb13pfc25 and sb26stc. I was surprised how good those cheap drivers were sounded and I want to try something better from sb acoustics.

First of all I have zero designing skills so I will have to build a satori monitor based on someone others design.

Joachim Gerhard's kalasan is the earlier version of sb acoustics Ara as far as I can tell, so is a design by a proven designer. The only drawback is that the cabinets are complicated but I think I can biuld them.
ARA – Sbacoustics

The other design is from a Czech designer, it seems good and it seems easy to build, but I am not familiar with his designs.
JurKo :: Pkaudio

My third option is a design from a polish forum. The designer is the same person who designed the sb13 monitors that I build and I am very happy with their performance. My drawback is that the crossover seems to be complicated, with many components and many components make me think that they draw power from the amp and they suck tone from the speakers.
Projekt AVS 2018 - SB Acoustics Satori TW29RN-B + MW19PNW-8 - by Tatami Audio

Another option under consideration is sb revolution mini by Jeff bagby. The sb29sdac edition. My drawback is that the mw13p is small driver and the Tweeter is not satori line. Also there is a beryllium option but is out of my budget.
SB Revolution Mini Be Loudspeaker Kit - Meniscus Audio

Last design under consideration is the sb acoustics bromo. Not from satori line, but the reviews of the drivers are excellent and the distortion plots are probably better than the satori plots.
BROMO – Sbacoustics

I know many people will suggest kairos/adelphos but I am from Greece and buying kairos/adelphos kits
are available from meniscus but with shipping and customs will cost me twice the money. (sb revolution mini is open source)

I am open to your thoughts and suggestions! Thank you all!

 

[LineSource]

I know many people will suggest kairos/adelphos but I am from Greece and buying kairos/adelphos kits
are available from meniscus but with shipping and customs will cost me twice the money.

World Expert Joachim Gerhard created the Kalasan as an open design for SB-Acoustics Satori drivers MW16P-8 midbass and TW29R-4 tweeter

For cost savings, the $52 SB29RDC-4 tweeter measures almost identical to the $132 Satori TW29R-4 tweeter used in Kalasan.
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SB Acoustics Satori Monitor - diyAudio

Joachim Gerhard final Satori Kalasan crossover 5.0 circuits from the Kalasan diyAudio thread. # 700
--SB Acoustics Satori Monitor
measurements post# 699
crossover circuits post# 700
photos post# 801 762 746

The Kalasan slanted baffle box dimensions are 30cm wide, 40cm high and 24cm bottom-deep (11.8"W 15.8"H 9.5"D ~0.7cuft internal volume). There is a 25 - 32mm thick baffle. 8-degree baffle tilt. Joachim also created a pyramid shaped cabinet for these drivers and crossover.

 

[Dave Bullet]

Jeff Bagby and Javad Shadzi's helios design if you have the coin. 2 way PR loaded WO24P woofer with satori berilyium tweeter with factory waveguide. Lookup DIY Loudspeaker project pad group on Facebook:

Here's a facebook link in the above group to them being demo'd at Axpona:
DIY Loudspeaker Project Pad Public Group | Facebook

I can't post a link to the final construction post with crossover details.. join and you will see

 

[LineSource]

Both the SB_Acoustics ARA and Bromo use a 3,000Hz crossover. Many designers believe this is too high for a 6.5" midbass. The Kairos and Kalasan use a ~1,700Hz crossover, well below the cone breakup frequency.
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BAFFLE DESIGN plays a large role: To maintain good time and phase coherence between T-M drivers, some cabinets construct a stepped or slanted baffle to improve time coherence, and use +LR2 on the midrange and -LR2 on the tweeter to 0-sum together and improve phase coherence. Some designs use "rapid phase shift" acoustic LR4/LR4 crossovers with a flat baffle, and believe the "rapid and clean switch over" between the M and T is more important.
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If your amplifier can easily drive a 3-ohm to 4-ohm load, a 4-ohm midbass offers a higher efficiency plus closer match to the typical 4-ohm tweeter. One example which I have built: MW19PNW-4 midbass with SB29RDC-4 dome tweeter.
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[vassilis1984]

@linesource I thought Ara was a further development of kalasan, the schematic looks similar but indeed different crossover point and of course the cabinets are different.
I know about sb29rdc, but I would like to try satori ring radiator.
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@ Dave bullet no coin for the helios.
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I know that baffle plays a large role, I will copy the baffle and the entire cabinet as is, from the design that I will deside to build.
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Yes, my amp can go 4 ohm easily.
If you have your design open source, give me some info!

 

[vassilis1984]

@LineSource
I could go with kalasan, but the cabinet is very wide, and also not so many information about some details (br length, resistance or awg of coils etc.) but again, 12 inch is very wide, and as you said, bafle size plays important role.

 

[PKAudio]

Vassilis, check my designs, just for inspiration:
Ghibli :: Pkaudio
JurKo :: Pkaudio

 

[vassilis1984]

@ pida, your Jurko design is under consideration, already listed in my first post here

 

[vassilis1984]

Vassilis, check my designs, just for inspiration:
Ghibli :: Pkaudio
JurKo :: Pkaudio

@ pida, your Jurko design is under consideration, already listed in my first post here

Because I am completely noob, why is the crossover of the midbass so different between jurko and ghibli. Is the same driver at the same enclosure

 

[PKAudio]

Tweeter crossovers are different because of different tweeters requiring different topology and values to achieve LR2 slopes. Actually, TW29 is more "LR2 friendly", C+RLC only was needed, I tried C+L+RLC, but L proved to not be needed.
Midwoofer crossovers are different, because I had to individually optimize their slopes to hand over properly to tweeter and to achieve good phase tracking in broad frequency range.
Also notice, SS6600 tweeter level @1kHz is -16dB, and TW29 is -13dB. This had to be addressed in midwoofer crossover to get sonically 1kHz area right.
Also 1kHz level is 1dB down in Ghibli. When I started in Ghibli with flat overall FR, it sounded quite bright at higher levels, so I ended up with that FR downtilt. SS6600 and TW29 are sonically different.

 

[fishball79]

vassilis1984,

I've heard the Ara, Rinjani, Kalasan and Revolutions (satori and SB15CAC) version at home before along with the Uluwatus and can share more but before that, what music genres do you want to perform the best and how large is the space you are listening in?

 

[vassilis1984]

vassilis1984,

I've heard the Ara, Rinjani, Kalasan and Revolutions (satori and SB15CAC) version at home before along with the Uluwatus and can share more but before that, what music genres do you want to perform the best and how large is the space you are listening in?

Great!
I listen mostly to rock and metal music.
My living room is about 32sq meters, typical living room, with furniture and stuff.
I have a subwoofer that can get both low and can climb a little higher than other subwoofers (Peerless xls with passive radiator)

 

[42476]

Great!
I listen mostly to rock and metal music.
My living room is about 32sq meters, typical living room, with furniture and stuff.
I have a subwoofer that can get both low and can climb a little higher than other subwoofers (Peerless xls with passive radiator)

I have SB Satoris and CAC both. I prefer the Satori over the CAC; other's have the exact opposite view. Either one is a good choice. The CAC series has very low measured HD. If you mostly like rock and metal; my guess is the CAC would be a better match for you. I also listen to rock but mostly these days, it is more acoustic jazz, classical, Baroque era chamber music, etc. For my 2-ways; the Satoris were more musical sounding than the CACs in similar designs. This all comes down to personal tastes I think more than anything else. I keep saying I think an all CAC 3-way would be a very good thing; there new designs out there now doing just that (with the SB26CDC tweeter).

The SB Bromo kit keeps getting very good reviews; maybe this is the one you should think about as your first choice???

 

[dwk123]

The SB Bromo kit keeps getting very good reviews; maybe this is the one you should think about as your first choice???

My concern about both the Ara and Bromo compared to alternatives is the relatively high xover frequency in both designs. 3k in both cases, which is way too high to provide a decent directivity match. Given the degree to which smooth off-axis response is now understood to be a primary design goal, it seems like an odd choice.

Of course, this is just 'design review' - I haven't actually heard any of these contenders.

 

[HeadShake]

The ARA Be uses a lower xover- 2300 vs 3000 on the non-Be.

 

[42476]

My concern about both the Ara and Bromo compared to alternatives is the relatively high xover frequency in both designs. 3k in both cases, which is way too high to provide a decent directivity match. Given the degree to which smooth off-axis response is now understood to be a primary design goal, it seems like an odd choice.

Of course, this is just 'design review' - I haven't actually heard any of these contenders.

I haven't heard any of these either...

My personal taste is for a 3-way vs a 2-way. There are MANY reasons for that. There are, of course, several very well designed 2-ways that get great reviews. All else being equal, a 3 inch to 5 inch driver does a much better job in the most critical mid band vs 6 inch or larger. Beaming or directivity is certainly ONE of the valid reasons for this. Smaller drivers usually always have a quicker and better controlled transient response. Even if you ignore beaming; the smaller drivers also are better at higher frequencies. This means you can cover 400 to 4 Khz with a mid; 300 to 5 KHz is even better because our ears are quite sensitive still as high as 4 KHz (Fletcher-Munson curves show this very clearly).

I am now into using "full range" drivers as extended range mids. (In one of my latest designs I cover 150 Hz to above 5 KHz with a 4 inch full range). You can get good results doing a 2-way with a full range and a tweeter. Some full range even do quite well in closed boxes but of course most people put them into horn or transmission line boxes. So, another possibility for you if you want to stick with a 2-way is to look into the full range drivers (possibly in a vented box?). By using a full range instead of a typical mid-woofer; you have a lot more flexibilty in tweeter choices, X/O points, etc. Not everyone here is going to agree with this of course but hey; what ever floats your boat and frosts your cookies!

 

[42476]

Have you considered a WTW (D'Appolito configuration) using 4 1/2 inch to 5 1/2 dual mid-bass drivers? There are also some successful kits out there in this configuration. There many advantages to this over a standard 6 to 7 inch 2-way. Again, not everyone here will agree but I happen to like this driver arrangement and resulting in-room dispersion pattern quite a bit. Madisound and Meniscus both have a few kits in this category.

For other ideas; WTW or standard 2-way or standard 3-way; check out these sites:

DIY-Loudspeakers

Dozens of DIY designs; every possible configuration; every possible price range.


Selah Audio

Selah has finished designs, custom design, DIY kits and combinations where they do some of the work for you and you do the rest yourself. These guys are somewhat pricey but at least they have a large variety and you may get some of your own ideas by checking out their offerings.

 

[42476]

Have you considered a WTW (D'Appolito configuration) using 4 1/2 inch to 5 1/2 dual mid-bass drivers? There are also some successful kits out there in this configuration. There many advantages to this over a standard 6 to 7 inch 2-way. Again, not everyone here will agree but I happen to like this driver arrangement and resulting in-room dispersion pattern quite a bit. Madisound and Meniscus both have a few kits in this category.

For other ideas; WTW or standard 2-way or standard 3-way; check out these sites:

DIY-Loudspeakers

Dozens of DIY designs; every possible configuration; every possible price range.


Selah Audio

Selah has finished designs, custom design, DIY kits and combinations where they do some of the work for you and you do the rest yourself. These guys are somewhat pricey but at least they have a large variety and you may get some of your own ideas by checking out their offerings.

Here is one example; he states the bass is just as good as from a single 8 inch woofer...

Ellam d'

 

[vilding]

Hi!

I just bought the build plans for Kairos from Meniscus audio for the very same reason, being shipping, taxes and custom fees. Very thorough and well documented and all parts are easily sourced in Europe. Haven't started buying stuff or building yet so nothing from me about the sound of the speaker. But it sure measures nice and people really seem to like it.

 

[42476]

Hi!

I just bought the build plans for Kairos from Meniscus audio for the very same reason, being shipping, taxes and custom fees. Very thorough and well documented and all parts are easily sourced in Europe. Haven't started buying stuff or building yet so nothing from me about the sound of the speaker. But it sure measures nice and people really seem to like it.

Good choice for a 6 inch 2-way. I have the white cone, 4 Ohm version of the Satori MW; slightly different specs. I also have the 4 Ohm MR midrange in that same size. You can run the MR up very high in frequency; the MW goes pretty high also for a mid-woofer.