Dear Sirs,
looking at the Sanken 2SC2922's datasheet I cannot find a value of the max peak current available from it.
Do anyone have an idea?
Moreover I am looking for extremely simply schematics (minimum number of active devices) of power amps of about 50-70 W/8 ohm using just a single output pair 2SC2922/2SA1216 (something like the LCAudio Millenium XP power amp of which I could not find the schematic).
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
looking at the Sanken 2SC2922's datasheet I cannot find a value of the max peak current available from it.
Do anyone have an idea?
Moreover I am looking for extremely simply schematics (minimum number of active devices) of power amps of about 50-70 W/8 ohm using just a single output pair 2SC2922/2SA1216 (something like the LCAudio Millenium XP power amp of which I could not find the schematic).
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
Try datasheetarchive.com
They have most every pdf datasheet around
for FREE:
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/
They have most every pdf datasheet around
for FREE:
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/
lineup said:Try datasheetarchive.com
They have most every pdf datasheet around
for FREE:
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/
Dear Sir,
thanks a lot for the very kind and valuable help.
The datasheet says 17 A continuous and 20 A peak.
I believed a bigger difference between the two value.
Thank you sincerely.
Kind regards,
beppe
beppe61 said:... something like the LCAudio Millenium XP power amp
of which I could not find the schematic ....
technical info of LC Audio 'The End Millennium'
The End Millennium XP Technical
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Re: Re: Sanken 2SC2922 datasheet.
Thanks a lot Sir.
I really hoped the topology were much simpler.
Too many gain stages for my tastes.
I really cannot find a minimalist, that for me is something like the old Harman Kardon Citation 12 (schematic not very clear), power amp (think of 5-6 bjt plus a single very strong output pair).
IMHO these topologies give the max possibility of a good sound (and they are also cheap too !!).
Thank you sincerely.
Kind regards,
beppe
lineup said:technical info of LC Audio 'The End Millennium'
The End Millennium XP Technical
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Thanks a lot Sir.
I really hoped the topology were much simpler.
Too many gain stages for my tastes.
I really cannot find a minimalist, that for me is something like the old Harman Kardon Citation 12 (schematic not very clear), power amp (think of 5-6 bjt plus a single very strong output pair).
IMHO these topologies give the max possibility of a good sound (and they are also cheap too !!).
Thank you sincerely.
Kind regards,
beppe
Millennium is non-feedback amplifier.
This is why it can not be too simple.
With feedback you can make more minimalist amplifier.
2SC2922 and 2SA1215 are really top class transistors,
if you can find them
🙂
This is why it can not be too simple.
With feedback you can make more minimalist amplifier.
2SC2922 and 2SA1215 are really top class transistors,
if you can find them
🙂
Dear Sir,
thank you so much again for your extremely kind and valuable reply.
> Originally posted by lineup
Millennium is non-feedback amplifier.
This is why it can not be too simple.
- I really believed exactly the opposite.
This demonstrates my almost complete ignorance!
> With feedback you can make more minimalist amplifier.
Like ? Would you have any example at hand?
I really much like the HK Citation 12 (bjt version) but I think that something in the schematic available in the web is not complete clear, at least for me.
My dream is to find a kit of a Citation 12 clone "on steroids", with the exceptional Sanken pair.
> 2SC2922 and 2SA1215 are really top class transistors,
if you can find them
- and this is something that I really do not understand.
I have no doubt about their exceptional quality and performance.
So why are they not much more common?
I am an ignorant but if I were an audio designer these would be the my bjts of choice.
I do not think that they are that difficult to build.
And in most of case a simple output pair would suffice.
Really really strange.
Thank you very much again.
Kind regards,
beppe
2SA1215/2SC2921 and 2SA1216/2SC2922
The datasheets have a safe operating area (SOA) graph.
The Sankens:
for DC the peak current is 17 amps.
for a single 10mS burst peak current is 35 amps
Beppe,
you could construct the regular End Millenium LC.
These devices have been used for around 25 years.
Parts cost and difference in design philosophy will be factors why these are not the single choice of output devices, availability another.
20 years ago these Sankens were employed only in +$10.000 amplifiers, lower device prices and better logistics made them available for consumer electronics and diy.
20 years ago i paid 3 times as much compared to current prices.
The datasheets have a safe operating area (SOA) graph.
The Sankens:
for DC the peak current is 17 amps.
for a single 10mS burst peak current is 35 amps
Beppe,
you could construct the regular End Millenium LC.
These devices have been used for around 25 years.
Parts cost and difference in design philosophy will be factors why these are not the single choice of output devices, availability another.
20 years ago these Sankens were employed only in +$10.000 amplifiers, lower device prices and better logistics made them available for consumer electronics and diy.
20 years ago i paid 3 times as much compared to current prices.
jacco vermeulen said:Dear Mr. Vermeulen,
thank you so much for your extremely kind and much valuable reply.
> 2SA1215/2SC2921 and 2SA1216/2SC2922
The datasheets have a safe operating area (SOA) graph.
The Sankens:
for DC the peak current is 17 amps.
for a single 10mS burst peak current is 35 amps
WOW !!! that is quite a lot indeed !
Dear Mr. Vermeulen,
as you have certainly understood I am almost complete ignorant in electronics.
I just built very basic kit of power supply.
My question anyway remains, and I would like very much indeed to know your point of view, that is:
if devices of this quality are readily available on the market why so few DIY or commercial high-end power amps use them?
As I said I am almost completely ignorant, but you can be sure that if I knew how to design a power amp I would selected these family of devices without any hesitation.
Thank you very very much indeed for your explanation.
Kind regards,
beppe
P.S. 35 Amps. WOW ! no need to match anything. REWOW !
Beppe,
see added post above.
In the mid 80s other devices like Toshiba 2SA1302/2SC3281 were also only used in expensive gear by Western companies.
Using them in more favorably priced amplifiers was likely to be too expensive.
In Japan those devices were used both in consumer market amplifiers and high end gear as they were readily available and probably for very low prices.
Even now you see that a US company for example is likely to use OnSemi devices such as MJL1302/3281 because of ease of logistics.
Logistics adds costs that only big companies can handle through economy of scale. Getting it from far away means getting plenty.
Bare in mind that the audio business is incredibly volatile, much of it is hear say and a lot of audio lovers are very subjective and unreliable as a customer.
But i agree, with the price level and availability of these devices nowadays they should be the number one choice.
Trouble is that the average audiophile has to invest a lot of indepth energy and become a semi-designer to find out.
I used to be a consumer, because i desired to find out what makes something better than the other i became interested in electronics, now i am a diy guy and buying ready made is a real threshold because of it.
Regular consumers read magazines and buy on looks and trends.
see added post above.
In the mid 80s other devices like Toshiba 2SA1302/2SC3281 were also only used in expensive gear by Western companies.
Using them in more favorably priced amplifiers was likely to be too expensive.
In Japan those devices were used both in consumer market amplifiers and high end gear as they were readily available and probably for very low prices.
Even now you see that a US company for example is likely to use OnSemi devices such as MJL1302/3281 because of ease of logistics.
Logistics adds costs that only big companies can handle through economy of scale. Getting it from far away means getting plenty.
Bare in mind that the audio business is incredibly volatile, much of it is hear say and a lot of audio lovers are very subjective and unreliable as a customer.
But i agree, with the price level and availability of these devices nowadays they should be the number one choice.
Trouble is that the average audiophile has to invest a lot of indepth energy and become a semi-designer to find out.
I used to be a consumer, because i desired to find out what makes something better than the other i became interested in electronics, now i am a diy guy and buying ready made is a real threshold because of it.
Regular consumers read magazines and buy on looks and trends.
jacco vermeulen said:
Dear Mr. Vermeulen,
let me please reply hereunder.
> Beppe, see added post above.
In the mid 80s other devices like Toshiba 2SA1302/2SC3281 were also only used in expensive gear by Western companies ...
But i agree, with the price level and availability of these devices nowadays they should be the number one choice.
- Let me please put another question to you.
Do you think that a single pair of these wonderful pieces can take the place of multiple existing output pairs with improved performances ?
Because I really would upgrade a power amp I have at hand (I have yet to open it to read exactly the parts number on the output bjts - 3 pairs/channel).
I am only afraid to burn-out something.
> Trouble is that the average audiophile has to invest a lot of indepth energy and become a semi-designer to find out.
- Honestly I tried but failed at learning even the basics in audio electronic design.
So I decided to become a schematics hunter.
Sometimes a very basic and interesting schematics appears (for instance I like very much indeed the Citation 12 by Harman Kardon), known also to be nicely sounding.
I ownder how a project like that would sound after an upgrade of the devices in it (like Sankens at the output).
I am pretty sure it would be just wonderful, and also easy to build too.
I heard a story.
The audio Company XXX (I can tell you the exact name privately) asked a very talented and famous designer to design a new line of power amps.
The prototypes were wonderfully simple and sounded well.
The Company anyway autonomously decided to change the original project adding some more devices.
Well you can imagine the result: a mediocre sounding line of amps. This is perversion in my vocabulary.
> I used to be a consumer, because i desired to find out what makes something better than the other i became interested in electronics, now i am a diy guy and buying ready made is a real threshold because of it.
Regular consumers read magazines and buy on looks and trends.
- I think you have got the real point very well.
Dear Mr. Vermeulen,
thank you so much again for your always appreciated and precious explanation.
Kind regards,
beppe
Hi all
Those 2sc2922 and their complements can be bought from profusionplc.
http://www.profusionplc.com/product-frame.htm
There is also a datasheet at that site.
I have been using the 2sc2922 in a class-A JLH amp. They run hot but they have survived about 8 years with daily use so far.
Torben Herrmann.
Those 2sc2922 and their complements can be bought from profusionplc.
http://www.profusionplc.com/product-frame.htm
There is also a datasheet at that site.
I have been using the 2sc2922 in a class-A JLH amp. They run hot but they have survived about 8 years with daily use so far.
Torben Herrmann.
Beppe,
I love these transistors!
Datasheet?
why not go to the source directly?
http://www.sanken-ele.co.jp/en/
search for yor model in the pulldown menu.
Don't stop at the power transistors, take a look at the drivers and ditch those good for nuttin' BD139-140. I burn more of those than wood in my fireplace.
To buy them:
You'll pay more but there is Digitex in florence they have the 230V c3264 model in stock.
profusionplc.com would be my first choice for a source.
Don't trust many other verdors for sankens. There are more fakes you can imagine. I got fakes from MCM electronics, big distributors, I reurned them.
I love these transistors!
Datasheet?
why not go to the source directly?
http://www.sanken-ele.co.jp/en/
search for yor model in the pulldown menu.
Don't stop at the power transistors, take a look at the drivers and ditch those good for nuttin' BD139-140. I burn more of those than wood in my fireplace.
To buy them:
You'll pay more but there is Digitex in florence they have the 230V c3264 model in stock.
profusionplc.com would be my first choice for a source.
Don't trust many other verdors for sankens. There are more fakes you can imagine. I got fakes from MCM electronics, big distributors, I reurned them.
grataku said:Beppe,
I love these transistors!
Datasheet? why not go to the source directly?
http://www.sanken-ele.co.jp/en/
search for yor model in the pulldown menu.
Dear Sir,
I have already downloaded the datasheet.
My problem was to find the max peak current available from the device.
It should be in the order of 30 A peak (wow!).
My dream should have just a pair of these devices at the output.
Do you have any suggestion for a very simple kit using them?
> Don't stop at the power transistors, take a look at the drivers and ditch those good for nuttin' BD139-140. I burn more of those than wood in my fireplace.
To buy them: You'll pay more but there is Digitex in florence they have the 230V c3264 model in stock.
- thank you very much for the very valuable advice.
> profusionplc.com would be my first choice for a source.
Don't trust many other verdors for sankens.
There are more fakes you can imagine.
I got fakes from MCM electronics, big distributors, I reurned them.
- I heard about the "fakes".
So they can very well be called the Rolex of the bjts !(eh, eh)
Kind regards,
beppe
ITALY
Herrmann said:Hi all
Those 2sc2922 and their complements can be bought from profusionplc.
http://www.profusionplc.com/product-frame.htm
There is also a datasheet at that site.
I have been using the 2sc2922 in a class-A JLH amp.
They run hot but they have survived about 8 years with daily use so far.
Torben Herrmann.
Dear Sir,
thank a lot for the very kind and valuable advice.
What about class AB applications? What is your opinion?
Kind regards,
beppe
Hi Beppe,
trying to replace a 3pair output stage with 1pair 2922 without fully understanding the thermal and electronic implications is folly.
The 35A pulse at less than 18Vce extracted from the SOAR is a one shot 10mS signal with Tc=25degC.
You cannot rely on using that figure for general music conditions.
What happens if you apply two shots within a short period?
What if the signal was 20mS?
What happens when the Tc is starting to rise quickly due to carrying a continuous current and voltage at about half the SOAR maximum and then apply the 35A 10mS one shot signal instead of the continuous signal you just suspended?
If you cannot analyse these senario then I advise you do not try to use the 10mS SOAR, i.e. forget it even exists. A nice figure to brag about in the pub and then the listener will forget all about it next morning.
trying to replace a 3pair output stage with 1pair 2922 without fully understanding the thermal and electronic implications is folly.
The 35A pulse at less than 18Vce extracted from the SOAR is a one shot 10mS signal with Tc=25degC.
You cannot rely on using that figure for general music conditions.
What happens if you apply two shots within a short period?
What if the signal was 20mS?
What happens when the Tc is starting to rise quickly due to carrying a continuous current and voltage at about half the SOAR maximum and then apply the 35A 10mS one shot signal instead of the continuous signal you just suspended?
If you cannot analyse these senario then I advise you do not try to use the 10mS SOAR, i.e. forget it even exists. A nice figure to brag about in the pub and then the listener will forget all about it next morning.
AndrewT said:Hi Beppe,
trying to replace a 3pair output stage with 1pair 2922 without fully understanding the thermal and electronic implications is folly.
Dear Mr. Andrew,
thank you sincerely for stopping me before doing some regrettable mistake.
> The 35A pulse at less than 18Vce extracted from the SOAR is a one shot 10mS signal with Tc=25degC.
You cannot rely on using that figure for general music conditions.
...
- Thank you very much for the very valuable explanation.
I have a question anyway.
Some days ago I had the opportunity to listen to an old Krell KSA 50. Well, the bass response was just prodigious.
I was very impressed to say the least.
Then the owner said that this amp has just two pairs of output bjts per channel.
So an astonishing bass is available with just two pairs of bjts/channel.
My power amp has tre pairs of Sanken 10A devices/channel.
Do you think that on theory I could get the same bass response by upgrading the power supply at the level of that in the Krell ?
I understand that the Krell has two transformer of a VA rating equal to the one in my amp (i.e. twice the VA).
The capacitance instead is 4 times !!!
Any your suggestion to upgrade my power amp would be very welcome and appreciated.
I would like to improve the bass response in order to give more body to the sound.
Thank you sincerely.
Kind regards,
beppe
Hi Beppe,
I know you are still learning, so this will involve a bit of arithmetic some understanding and maybe a little research on your part.
Look at your schematic and identify the high pass time constants that define the bass roll off response.
You need to find the input high pass, The Global negative feedback high pass, the PSU high pass, and if any others are fitted eg. high pass decoupling to the voltage amplifier stage and/or capacitive coupling between stages.
As a rule of thumb each and ALL of these must be below the lowest frequency you need to reproduce.
I have used a ratio that seems to work.
Global NFB RC=120mS to 140mS
PSU RC =160mS to 200mS. eg. 8ohm requires 20mF to 25mF, 4ohm twice as much.
Input RC=80mS to 100mS.
Then you can try to find if there is space to fit these changes.
Then check the current capacity of the output stage at the Vce of the output transistors. This includes the source resistors, transistors, fuses, PCB track resistance, hard wiring resistance, transformer, rectifier, smoothing bank.
After you have come up with a complete scheme then think about a budget.
Now reconsider whether you modify or start afresh.
My reason for assessing an amp in the above manner is my belief that low frequency response should extend to about 3 octaves below the lowest audible frequency and that when driving these low frequencies the output current should not cause the Vrail to sag excessively Some others may want to come in and advise differently. Listen to what they write and make up your own mind.
By the way, the KSA had 2pair of 20A transistors running at only 38Vce. Your 3pair of 10A at whatever voltage is going to have a lot less. Then the whole amplifier was designed to have no weak links from input to output except possibly the lack of a DC block on the input and very slow transistors throughout but that results from the available components at the time of this elderly design.
I know you are still learning, so this will involve a bit of arithmetic some understanding and maybe a little research on your part.
Look at your schematic and identify the high pass time constants that define the bass roll off response.
You need to find the input high pass, The Global negative feedback high pass, the PSU high pass, and if any others are fitted eg. high pass decoupling to the voltage amplifier stage and/or capacitive coupling between stages.
As a rule of thumb each and ALL of these must be below the lowest frequency you need to reproduce.
I have used a ratio that seems to work.
Global NFB RC=120mS to 140mS
PSU RC =160mS to 200mS. eg. 8ohm requires 20mF to 25mF, 4ohm twice as much.
Input RC=80mS to 100mS.
Then you can try to find if there is space to fit these changes.
Then check the current capacity of the output stage at the Vce of the output transistors. This includes the source resistors, transistors, fuses, PCB track resistance, hard wiring resistance, transformer, rectifier, smoothing bank.
After you have come up with a complete scheme then think about a budget.
Now reconsider whether you modify or start afresh.
My reason for assessing an amp in the above manner is my belief that low frequency response should extend to about 3 octaves below the lowest audible frequency and that when driving these low frequencies the output current should not cause the Vrail to sag excessively Some others may want to come in and advise differently. Listen to what they write and make up your own mind.
By the way, the KSA had 2pair of 20A transistors running at only 38Vce. Your 3pair of 10A at whatever voltage is going to have a lot less. Then the whole amplifier was designed to have no weak links from input to output except possibly the lack of a DC block on the input and very slow transistors throughout but that results from the available components at the time of this elderly design.
AndrewT said:> Hi Beppe, I know you are still learning, so this will involve a bit of arithmetic some understanding and maybe a little research on your part.
Look at your schematic and identify the high pass time constants that define the bass roll off response.
...
Dear Mr. Andrew,
thank you sincerely for helping me understand that even a "slight modification" of an unit does involve a lot of electronics understanding.
Put it simply, I am afraid it is out of my reach.
I think it is much better to limit myself to mods like recapping and input/output terminations replacement.
Thank you very much again for your friendly and very valuable advice.
Anyway let me please state that I am very amazed to find so many commercial amps that are indeed very limited in their driving ability of difficult loads.
I mean, I do not own a pair of Scintilla with their maybe 1 ohm at 100 Hz and I have 4 amps at hand that fails to give an adequate bass.
What kind of speakers are they supposed to drive? a 8 ohm resistance?
I do not know anyone who listen to a 8 ohm resistance.
> By the way, the KSA had 2pair of 20A transistors running at only 38Vce.
Your 3pair of 10A at whatever voltage is going to have a lot less. Then the whole amplifier was designed to have no weak links from input to output except possibly the lack of a DC block on the input and very slow transistors throughout but that results from the available components at the time of this elderly design.
Dear Mr. Andrew,
thank you so much again for stopping me from doing some irreversible disaster.
So my quest for the "poor man's Krell KSA 50" goes on.
But it is becoming quite frustrating indeed.
Are you aware of real high current amps in kit maybe?
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
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