Recently, I have tested a Chinese replica of the Blameless Amplifier with an output pair of transistors labeled Sanken 2SC2922/2SA1216. In one channel I have left that pair and in the other channel I have replaced all, not just the output transistors, all of them, with originals from Mouser except the output transistors which I have replaced with original TTC5200/TTA1943. Measurement results were similar: decent frequency response and low THD+N values. Up to the maximum power, just before the onset of clipping.
I also have several pairs of generic ICS 2SC2922/2SA1216. These are blank, without labels. I haven't bothered to use them in this comparison but
I assume that these transistors are ICS labeled with Sankens' logotype. Good generic transistors re-branded with a logotype of famous company who once produced the "originals".
It's the time for Marty to seat in Time Machine and inform Doc Brown that Chinese transistors ain't that bad either.
That's what I'll likely do. Though I'd still be interested in figuring out whether the ones I have are genuine or not.
In any case:
This gentleman smashed open a genuine Sanken 2SC2922 from a commercially made PA amp. The insides look nearly identical to to my and the OP's examples. The authentic chips have 5x5mm dies (measured based on the photo):
https://www.richis-lab.de/2SC2922.htm
This person broke open some ISC clones. They look nothing like the better examples OP has:
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/88188?page=single#748658
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Scales, caliper and … sledgehammer… are they the right instruments for measuring electronics?
I'm not surprised that audio is one of the largest Snake oil markets. First, audio devices are difficult to measure for ordinary people and, second, there is no consensus on what really matters. Let me show you two snapshots: one presents THD of an amplifier with »original« transistors and the other is the same amplifier with »fake« components. Both were taken at 20VRMS, 7.5Ohm.
Which is fake and which is original? One of them has 2SC2922/2SA1216 outputs.
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2:
I'm not surprised that audio is one of the largest Snake oil markets. First, audio devices are difficult to measure for ordinary people and, second, there is no consensus on what really matters. Let me show you two snapshots: one presents THD of an amplifier with »original« transistors and the other is the same amplifier with »fake« components. Both were taken at 20VRMS, 7.5Ohm.
Which is fake and which is original? One of them has 2SC2922/2SA1216 outputs.
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2:
I am not attempting to measure the performance of the transistors with a sledgehammer. No one is.
I now the performance characteristics of the authentic transistors. I do not know the performance characteristics of the clones/fakes. And as you pointed out, measuring them is very difficult for me, an ordinary person. Knowing the transistor is authentic, and therefore will perform as expected in a circuit, is the whole game. Hence our attempts to physically compare the transistors on hand with examples of the authentic parts.
I now the performance characteristics of the authentic transistors. I do not know the performance characteristics of the clones/fakes. And as you pointed out, measuring them is very difficult for me, an ordinary person. Knowing the transistor is authentic, and therefore will perform as expected in a circuit, is the whole game. Hence our attempts to physically compare the transistors on hand with examples of the authentic parts.
@knarfor
I do understand your doubts regarding unknown supplers. Ideally, we should be able to relay on supplers who somehow guarantee we got what we have paid for, without the need to meassure. But what to do when the desired product isn't available? Simply, get over it and take what is available at Mouser. I've purchased components for Wolverine in accordance with the BOM from the opening post. Double quantity.
I will dig a bit deeper in this subject: when the time allows I will measure two different sets of 2SA2922 suspects with curve tracer. The previous THD measurements are promising. The worst are the missed chances.
I wish you a pleasant weekend.
I do understand your doubts regarding unknown supplers. Ideally, we should be able to relay on supplers who somehow guarantee we got what we have paid for, without the need to meassure. But what to do when the desired product isn't available? Simply, get over it and take what is available at Mouser. I've purchased components for Wolverine in accordance with the BOM from the opening post. Double quantity.
I will dig a bit deeper in this subject: when the time allows I will measure two different sets of 2SA2922 suspects with curve tracer. The previous THD measurements are promising. The worst are the missed chances.
I wish you a pleasant weekend.
@Berlusconi Thanks! And same: I have other outputs ready, but playing detective with transistors is fun, and yet another opportunity to learn. If I can verify these are authentic, then it's an added bonus.
I too was looking for this case style, but I figured why bother on taking a chance on something that could be a poor performer? Plus they’re generally expensive. So I’ve used Onsemi MJL1302 and MJL3281 in multiple amps that use the MT-200 and not one has had any issue of any kind, and they sound amazing. Seeing this thread has reminded me that they basically used a TO-3p device inside of this transistor, so now I’m wondering why not try the NJW1302 and NJW3281 since they’re TO-3p and use the same die as the MJL devices.
I agree, there are some pretty decent devices coming from China, but still a lot of garbage. Why pay more only to gamble?
Dan
I agree, there are some pretty decent devices coming from China, but still a lot of garbage. Why pay more only to gamble?
Dan
Indeed. 👍 Otherwise we would have purchased a hefty, shiny commercial amplifier, but we prefer learning and investigating.
Hi Dan,
These are exactly my preferred output transistors along with TTC/TTA.
I "test" suspicious transistors for fun, only on dummy load, not on my speakers, I'm just curious. I would have never used them in my audio devices. Someone here said once very nicely: "components with question mark"
EDIT: I must admit, I have used CDIL small transistors in one of my amplifiers because they measured better than similar, almost equivalent ON Semi transistors. I did that after serious consideration.
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Ive got 4 genuine 2SC2922 (Ive had them for over 20 years). They are marked 92p ( note with a small p) and Hfe 101/109/111/103. If pictures or marking details would help anyone
I would be happy to send
I would be happy to send
By the way Ive just noticed that Profusion in the UK still have 2SC2922's in stock but not 2SA1216 if it helps anyone. They are a very reputable supplier. I think that's
where I got my 2SC2922's from
where I got my 2SC2922's from
Simple and accurate, but slightly more expensive: purchase from Mouser or Farnell. 😉
Sorry, I don't understand your post.
I am not sure if you are just failing at trying to be funny or be intentionally unhelpful as you must know neither Mouser or Farnell have the transistors in question, or this post would would never be.
You are right,Sanken MT200 isn't available anymore.
That's why i recommended A1386,C3519,same body but different case style.😉
That's why i recommended A1386,C3519,same body but different case style.😉
@DaveFred
First, I am sorry for making you feel uncomfortable - that wasn't my intention.
At the beginning of dealing with this hobby I was confident that components from all sources are adequate. I have thought that pickiness about the source of components was ordinary whim. I assumed that business integrity is wide spread but soon I have realized that suppliers from certain regions don't care at all. Also, suppliers from more reliable regions sell "replacements" that do not really compare to the originals. For example: Reichelt from Germany sells 2SC2922/ 2SA1216 but they clearly indicate their source: iscsemi. Now, it is up to you if you would use it. And they market them at highish prices.
Mouser and Farnell do not sell obsolete components and I do support that approach: real things or nothing.
I had quite few bitter experiences when these components have started producing smoke instead of sound. I have thought: that must have been my fault, but as soon I have started throwing away components from kits without bothering to test them, I have realised what was the problem.
Now, I start a new project just in case Mouser and Farnell can supply all components. It costs, but I have more confidence in return.
No more smoke and sparks, just sound.
I wish you a pleasant weekend
