Good Luck with your build!
Having built numerous pairs of speakers myself , I'll just add -- Have fun with it!
If mistakes are made, it's only wood, after all.
(As others have noted, it's VERY addictive!!)
Best, Don
Having built numerous pairs of speakers myself , I'll just add -- Have fun with it!
If mistakes are made, it's only wood, after all.
(As others have noted, it's VERY addictive!!)
Best, Don
Thanks Don, I am gaining a sense of relief. This has been a long haul or learning enough to be the least bit comfortable. Interesting that Vancouver Island seems over-represented with craftsmen and musicians. A notable couple in Nanaimo. If practical, I would look for a woodcutter on Quadra Island. I, in fact, nearly bonded the joint with Miss Campbell River so many years ago. Folks in this neck of the woods can often be heard complimenting Niagara Falls. I always agree but then add, "Yes, but Niagara Falls is a dripping bathroom faucet relative to Seymour Narrows at full tide. Nearly met my maker in that froth. I only hope to build a cabinet 1/10th as beautiful as your home.
Sounds like a person who needs to attend the yearly Vancouver Isl. DIY fest @ Dave's!!
Be sure and post pics as you progress!
Best, Don
Be sure and post pics as you progress!
Best, Don
Pics - YES, please. A step-by-step report.
And Vancouver area...isn´t there an annual meet of classic motorbikes somewhere? On some small island iirc.
And Vancouver area...isn´t there an annual meet of classic motorbikes somewhere? On some small island iirc.
Hi Chris: My 167 Fonkens are up and running. The sub is mothballed, plenty of bass for me (the eNAbled drivers are excellent, but then you knew that!) wife gains a couple ft. of floor space back, win/win!!
(I can't seem to get the pic posting thing to go yet, I'll keep trying!
Best, Don
(I can't seem to get the pic posting thing to go yet, I'll keep trying!
Best, Don
I just determined that the weight for the 4X6 fossilized bamboo ply is 90 lbs; the same weight as the 4X8 non-fossilized. The sales specialist first said 80 lbs for the 4X6 but then looked it up in the specs and came back with 90 lbs. That is about 3.75 lbs per sq foot (90/24). That compares to 2.52 lbs per sq inch for your BB (63/25). Eyeballing the cutsheets for Sachiko suggests that Sachiko, based on 55 sq ft per speaker, would weigh about 200 lbs. Carder's Madison is 125 lbs and the Lissa V2 is 70 lbs. I am not all that great with percentages and eyeballing cut sheets, but it seems that one Hiro, built with fossilized bamboo, could be expected to weigh approximately 110 lbs plus the weight of a plinth. Kind of nerve racking considering that Scott's design is based on a much lighter material. Unless somebody dissuades me, I am going for it.
aside from the cost factor, with which you seem to be comfortable, have you worked with Bamboo plywood previously?
I have some experience with one particular format of bamboo plywood, and can comment that there are some special considerations as regards to required tooling, storage/handling and finishing that could cause some consternation if not observed.
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Never. Not any other kind of wood. I have worked with slate and learned that both should be stored flat. Like slate, moisture content can be an issue so I am told to keep the ends sealed until the construction begins. I was told to use fine teeth and new cutters. I don't have the expertise for cutting so I hope to contract that out to someone who knows what they are doing. Other than those few things, I know nothing.
Next on my list of things to learn about were jointing techniques and whether I should use biscuits or similar. I know nothing of these things. I was told to not use Gorilla glue because of expansion. I took Wood Shop in the eighth grade and got a "C." I did better in Auto Shop though.
Next on my list of things to learn about were jointing techniques and whether I should use biscuits or similar. I know nothing of these things. I was told to not use Gorilla glue because of expansion. I took Wood Shop in the eighth grade and got a "C." I did better in Auto Shop though.
I neglected to state the obvious in my previous post. Please do comment.
Glue, joint techniques beyond Dave's drawing if indicated, when to seal - before or after gluing. I was thinking of placing quarter round pieces to make grooves for the internal panels but have no idea if that's indicated or if doing so would be a significant assault on Scott's design. In fact, the more I think about it; This is crazy, but I am going to do something.
I have access to an accomplished furniture maker but his Parkinson's has advanced to the point where his physicians do not want him near a saw. I am hopeful that he can get me connected to local expertise. Chances are that no matter who I find to help, that person will not have worked with bamboo plywood.
Thank you for any comments - Loren
Loren:
I would never want to discourage any builder, nor do I consider myself expert enough to offer classes, but bamboo plywood is not a material I'd recommend to a newbie.
While I've built several pairs of speaker enclosures with it, and many dozens with Baltic Birch and even MDF, I'm not sure I'd entertain tackling a pair of Sachikos or any of Scott's double mouth BVR/horns with bamboo.
It's rather heavy, very dense and hard on tools - as much due to the glue content as material itself, and as you've already researched, requires very sharp tooling, and high torque table saws and routers to cleanly machine, particularly on cross grain cuts. The top ply layer on beveled cuts of which there are several on Sachiko, can be very fragile.
and oh yes, the slivers - not noxious, but very difficult to extract
As for joinery techniques, the several pairs I built incorporated rather a lot of rabbeted edges to take advantage of the exposed end grain of internal ply layers, with the result of fairly substantial glue surface area. I used regular yellow PVA carpenter's glue.
Provided that adequate blocking an clamping is employed, the moisture cured polyurethane glues such as Gorilla glue etc., can be employed without too much concern of swelling. However, it does take overnight to cure, which adds a lot of days to a build that already would require several clamping set ups, and it also has the nasty habit of deeply staining the material. One of the primary appeals to me of bamboo is the gorgeous finish you can achieve with natural oil & wax or lacquer finishes, and the penetrating stains from Gorilla glue are virtually impossible to remove.
I would never want to discourage any builder, nor do I consider myself expert enough to offer classes, but bamboo plywood is not a material I'd recommend to a newbie.
While I've built several pairs of speaker enclosures with it, and many dozens with Baltic Birch and even MDF, I'm not sure I'd entertain tackling a pair of Sachikos or any of Scott's double mouth BVR/horns with bamboo.
It's rather heavy, very dense and hard on tools - as much due to the glue content as material itself, and as you've already researched, requires very sharp tooling, and high torque table saws and routers to cleanly machine, particularly on cross grain cuts. The top ply layer on beveled cuts of which there are several on Sachiko, can be very fragile.
and oh yes, the slivers - not noxious, but very difficult to extract
As for joinery techniques, the several pairs I built incorporated rather a lot of rabbeted edges to take advantage of the exposed end grain of internal ply layers, with the result of fairly substantial glue surface area. I used regular yellow PVA carpenter's glue.
Provided that adequate blocking an clamping is employed, the moisture cured polyurethane glues such as Gorilla glue etc., can be employed without too much concern of swelling. However, it does take overnight to cure, which adds a lot of days to a build that already would require several clamping set ups, and it also has the nasty habit of deeply staining the material. One of the primary appeals to me of bamboo is the gorgeous finish you can achieve with natural oil & wax or lacquer finishes, and the penetrating stains from Gorilla glue are virtually impossible to remove.
Chris - you could have shortened that posting to just two words.
"Clamps"
"Time"
Never met anyone who had enough of either.
😀
Pit
"Clamps"
"Time"
Never met anyone who had enough of either.
😀
Pit
I use biscuit joints, they're stronger than simple butt joints. It's too bad you're not closer for me to help you with the build.
As I recall, you are in Philadelphia. Perhaps you could give me a crash course on biscuit joints. I could use biscuits to join the internal panels as practice for using biscuits for the sides and larger panels. I have not drawn 4X6 cutsheets but I suspect there will be leftover wood for practicing joints, finish, and glue before I construct the speaker cabinets. I have an extremely fortunate career where I get paid to learn new things. Doing so is my job. I think that I can borrow a biscuit joiner tool.
For now, I need to find a cutter. I want to make sure that whoever cuts the panels does not also source the wood. If not, then I plan to order as soon as I finish the cutsheets. If I can't find a cutter then I may just go buy one of those plywood laser cutters. No problem.
Chris, thank you for your comments. My confidence waxes and wanes on an hourly basis. I have so much time into studying this, for better or worse, I may attempt Hiro with bamboo.
Thank you for alerting me to the staining of Gorilla glue. The Cali specialist recommended liquid nails for glue but I did not ask which formula. From looking at your speakers, I suspect that you used the Cali version of the wood. I will plan on staying with your suggestion for glue.
I also read your informative previous post;
Anyone trid to build cabinets using bamboo plywood? - diyAudio
Of dozens of internet blog/forum posts I found this document to be a decent summary of what you have said.
mwanzi_plywood_u&s.pdf - usage and storage
I understand your doubtfulness that I may attempt this and achieve a satisfactory result. I share it.
from what i'm getting of this thread you're best bet with bamboo ply would be to get a shop with a CNC cutting machine to not only cut all panels to size but to cut a ~3/16 "rebate" into the sides top, bottom and baffle for inner panels to be inserted into and glued up. That would be the strongest and most air tight way of doing it. Much better than using biscuit's because it offers a slight margin for error well still having enough contact points to not only seal all joints but account for slightly larger or smaller cuts that wouldn't seat properly in a simple butt joint with or without biscuits.
Why specifically 3/16"? My head swims with keeping information straight but I am fairly certain that the veneers (outer laminae) on the particular wood I may use are 1/8". Thus, 3/16" would enter the central layer. I read somewhere that tricky things happen when progressing deeper that the outer layers. This is what made me think of "grooving" the the inner walls of the sides with 1/4 round hardwood but this changes Scott's design for the volume of the horn passageway.
I believe that a "rebate" joining must be what Chris refers to as a rabbeted edge. There maybe a South Northern versus a North Northern American subtlety in the language. Our Northern neighbors often appear a little closer linked to the UK. Now that I think of it. The rabbeted edge explains how Chris got that single ply framing around the baffle. Looks good too.
If I understand correctly, a 3/16th rebate for the inner panels means that the width for the inner panels would have to be increased by 3/8"? That would be 9 3/8" for Hiro?
I talked to a friend the day about supporting the inner panels and he immediately started boggling my mind with plans of Masonite templates to guide a router and so on. My mind went blank on that but we are getting together in the next few days to go over all that I have learned. If I can get him ego involved I imagine I can do what you suggest.
I have another friend who I help with a non-profit poster printing service for local artisans and theaters. We may print full size images of the panel locations for the inner side walls. I imagine that could be used to make Masonite templates.
I also have metal fabrication done from time to time with a local shop having CNC machinery. They might be able to provide some guidance.
If I somehow manage to pull this off maybe I would make a few additional flat packs available. I would only need a venture capitalist. This looks like it is going to be a long haul but I think that I am on board.
3/16ths, total SWAG (some wild @$$ guess), i wouldn't go deeper than 1/4" though.
Shipping would kill it. That is why Madisound only offer's limited # of Fostex flat packs, BK16 and BK20. Fostex BK-20 Cabinet - Sold Flat - Each from Madisound
They did the FE208EZ rec. horn but never released it for that reason.
Incidentally, a guy in south Jersey ran a add in AudioExpress for CNC flat pack or complete assembly of your cabinet design. I can dig thru back issues for his info if you're interested.
Shipping would kill it. That is why Madisound only offer's limited # of Fostex flat packs, BK16 and BK20. Fostex BK-20 Cabinet - Sold Flat - Each from Madisound
They did the FE208EZ rec. horn but never released it for that reason.
Incidentally, a guy in south Jersey ran a add in AudioExpress for CNC flat pack or complete assembly of your cabinet design. I can dig thru back issues for his info if you're interested.
Thanks for the offer to look up the guy in NJ. This quest has taken on a life of its own. I know that if I had Jeff Carder deliver a Lissa V2 that now way would it sound as good as if I somehow struggle through this process and, for better or worse, do it myself. I just got off the phone with Cali Bamboo. The outer lamina is 1/4 inch, not 1/8. I asked about an experienced cutter in my area. He recommended any experienced cabinet maker. He says I could cut this stuff myself with a skill saw. Not my intention though. He, in fact, recently made a sub cabinet out of the Cali bamboo.
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