terry j said:
You are not alone. EQ systems have been described and advertized as a "cure-all" solution. My counter argument is always: give me a room in which a Steinway Piano does not sound like Steinway, or more like a Yamaha. That is a bit exageration 😀 (because a Steinway can sound like anything if you are far enough from it). But the reality is EQ is solving a smaller portion of the problem than most people are lead to believe. The sound characteristic that comes immediately out of the transducers are far more important, no matter it is distortion or frequency response.
With LT, you get the ruler flat FR right at the driver. It relieves the computational burden for an EQ system such as DEQX because is only need to solve an easier problem and as Paul has pointed out, a lot of times, with a good placement of the sub, you end up not needing the EQ.
Brian
Rythmik Audio
A none sonic questions for Brian or Kiwi/Oz that brought Rhythmic amp/kit. Which freight method did you used? Anyone using surface mail with problem. Like lost, broken etc? Well, they are a lot cheaper but not sure if they are good.
TIA,
Sam
TIA,
Sam
SamL said:
US postal service no longer provides surface shipping. In short, no more surface shipping.
Brian
Rythmik Audio
paulspencer said:
Paul,
I'm completely sold on dipoles ! I've heard Rod N's Orions and the only thing stopping me making them is somewhat polite SPL capabilities (I could be wrong here, but it is a gut feeling of mine - I have a very large room).
But as a concept it is absolutely spot on - not just for reflections, but more importantly absence of box colorations and rear wave through-the-cone reflections. And believe me both my VAFs and ATCs have boxes built as well as it gets (short of insanely expensive solutions a-la Avalon or Wilson). I can now hear them (box colorations) clear as a bell. I blame Rod for this ! 😀
You have hit the nail on the head re compression. I can't express enough of my disgust with most modern sound engineers. Classical gets compressed too ! And pop/light jazz is not worth buying anymore, as it all seems to get produced for in-car listenig with grand total of 3dB dynamic range. When I just remember those ads for CD as a new medium 25 years ago ... "96dB dynamic range" ... of which we now throw away most, so our CD can sound louder than anything else.
Pathetic.
Bratislav
Bratislav, it's not as bad as you think. Actually OB can get loud. The compromise I make is only going down to 80 Hz where I cross to my Rythmik. I'm finding the bass I get that way is better than what I previously had with subs in dipole. This is because of the subs themselves (Rythmik) being far superior.
Let's take your speakers for example. Were you to put them on an open baffle (say 400mm wide) and cross them at say 100 Hz to a Rythmik sub, I think you would actually find you would get comparable SPL. The main limitation comes when you have dipole bass, then you end up spending a lot. I'm willing to trade that aspect, because what impresses me most is the soundstage and the midrange.
I've spent a lot of time on SL's site, but what surprises me is that I can get a good result fairly crudely. I still use the not so great crossover that came with my Jaycar kit (vifa drivers). I run autoEQ on Ultracurve to get it all flat, and actually the EQ is little more than I have with box speakers - just a bit of boost in the lower midrange transition to the sub. The midrange efficiency of such a setup is higher than a box speaker, although the bottleneck is the lower midrange. I find that a decent midbass driver with 4mm xmax is quite happy.
If I understand, you have the VAF signature with the one 8" woofer. In OB it should be happy down to 80 or 100 Hz.
Of course, I imagine you'd have a hard time letting go of such a great speaker and changing anything. Still, if you do have the urge to try it out, a rough baffle that you could knock out in an afternoon just might surprise you. Of course, you would need something else to do the bass to really test it properly.
I believe the Orion is limited by the woofers. If you were to substitute a different bass arrangement, then the SPL would be around the limit of conventional dome tweeter/midbass driver speakers.
If you want to get serious about SPL in a big room with dipole, then I'd think about an open baffle line array or pro drivers. In fact if I had a room big enough, I'd do this with a horn loaded Rythmik sub.
Let's take your speakers for example. Were you to put them on an open baffle (say 400mm wide) and cross them at say 100 Hz to a Rythmik sub, I think you would actually find you would get comparable SPL. The main limitation comes when you have dipole bass, then you end up spending a lot. I'm willing to trade that aspect, because what impresses me most is the soundstage and the midrange.
I've spent a lot of time on SL's site, but what surprises me is that I can get a good result fairly crudely. I still use the not so great crossover that came with my Jaycar kit (vifa drivers). I run autoEQ on Ultracurve to get it all flat, and actually the EQ is little more than I have with box speakers - just a bit of boost in the lower midrange transition to the sub. The midrange efficiency of such a setup is higher than a box speaker, although the bottleneck is the lower midrange. I find that a decent midbass driver with 4mm xmax is quite happy.
If I understand, you have the VAF signature with the one 8" woofer. In OB it should be happy down to 80 or 100 Hz.
Of course, I imagine you'd have a hard time letting go of such a great speaker and changing anything. Still, if you do have the urge to try it out, a rough baffle that you could knock out in an afternoon just might surprise you. Of course, you would need something else to do the bass to really test it properly.
I believe the Orion is limited by the woofers. If you were to substitute a different bass arrangement, then the SPL would be around the limit of conventional dome tweeter/midbass driver speakers.
If you want to get serious about SPL in a big room with dipole, then I'd think about an open baffle line array or pro drivers. In fact if I had a room big enough, I'd do this with a horn loaded Rythmik sub.
Thanks Brian - I think!
I don't want to get anyone bogged down on this but I'm still struggling to wrap my pooh-bear sized brain around the essential difference between the LT and, for example, the deqx's approach.
With either method, the aim (and hopefully the result) is to compensate and/or adjust the native response of the sub to get it ruler flat, presumably either in an anechoic situation or close mic'ed.
Either approach would involve some sort of processing and modification of the signal reaching the driver.
At least with the deqx it works on the actual measured response of the individual driver rather than a mathematical formula based on 'generic' parameters of the driver.
If it sounds like I'm challenging your answer then I haven't expressed myself well, it's simply my inability to comprehend the difference.
Bugger about no surface mail, I noticed on the website no option for that, now we know why. Certainly adds to the cost.
If a group buy in Aus was on the cards, would their be an alternative method?
Bratislav, I too have enjoyed the hospitality of RodN and the chance to hear the Orions, but I came away with a different take on their sound. Whilst I absolutely loved the sound of the Orions bass I was not super impressed with the rest of the presentation. By the way, that was prior to him adding the rear firing tweeter.
Maybe it is my lack of experience with a wide range of dipoles, but as the Orion is presented as an excellent example of the dipole sound..........
To get more experience with dipoles I might have to weadle my way around to PaulSpencers place next time I'm in melbourne ha ha ha. Shameless aren't I????
I don't want to get anyone bogged down on this but I'm still struggling to wrap my pooh-bear sized brain around the essential difference between the LT and, for example, the deqx's approach.
With either method, the aim (and hopefully the result) is to compensate and/or adjust the native response of the sub to get it ruler flat, presumably either in an anechoic situation or close mic'ed.
Either approach would involve some sort of processing and modification of the signal reaching the driver.
At least with the deqx it works on the actual measured response of the individual driver rather than a mathematical formula based on 'generic' parameters of the driver.
If it sounds like I'm challenging your answer then I haven't expressed myself well, it's simply my inability to comprehend the difference.
Bugger about no surface mail, I noticed on the website no option for that, now we know why. Certainly adds to the cost.
If a group buy in Aus was on the cards, would their be an alternative method?
Bratislav, I too have enjoyed the hospitality of RodN and the chance to hear the Orions, but I came away with a different take on their sound. Whilst I absolutely loved the sound of the Orions bass I was not super impressed with the rest of the presentation. By the way, that was prior to him adding the rear firing tweeter.
Maybe it is my lack of experience with a wide range of dipoles, but as the Orion is presented as an excellent example of the dipole sound..........
To get more experience with dipoles I might have to weadle my way around to PaulSpencers place next time I'm in melbourne ha ha ha. Shameless aren't I????
Terry, the DEQX and LT and Rythmik servo do different things.
DEQX is an active crossover. Yes it works with measured response, but it does not deal with dynamic behaviour, such as thermal compression or address other dynamic effects like thermal and mechanical memory.
This is where Direct Servo comes in. It is able to correct to an extent the dynamic issues and you get a stable and flat response at all SPL levels up to its limits.
LT requires that is is set up correctly, and can also get a flat response, but does not deal with dynamic issues like Direct Servo.
I would say that DEQX and Direct Servo are complementary, not competing technologies. They each do something that the other cannot.
DEQX is an active crossover. Yes it works with measured response, but it does not deal with dynamic behaviour, such as thermal compression or address other dynamic effects like thermal and mechanical memory.
This is where Direct Servo comes in. It is able to correct to an extent the dynamic issues and you get a stable and flat response at all SPL levels up to its limits.
LT requires that is is set up correctly, and can also get a flat response, but does not deal with dynamic issues like Direct Servo.
I would say that DEQX and Direct Servo are complementary, not competing technologies. They each do something that the other cannot.
****** about no surface mail, I noticed on the website no option for that, now we know why. Certainly adds to the cost.
I must have had one of the last surface mail orders, it cost about USD90 but it has taken 2 months, and had customs send one of my kits back because of a lost label so have to wait another 1 month.
Regards,
Dean
I must have had one of the last surface mail orders, it cost about USD90 but it has taken 2 months, and had customs send one of my kits back because of a lost label so have to wait another 1 month.
Regards,
Dean
I've had subs come from the US twice by surface mail, and it's a shame they won't do it anymore. Likewise I'm glad I got in as well!
paulspencer said:
I'm not touching the VAFs ! My wife would kill me
I'm having enough trouble hauling in those huge ATCs when I want to have a listen. VAFs are so pretty in more than one way - beautiful finish, nice size and beautiful sound. ATCs are ruthless in their presentation, and their unlimited dynamics is almost too much in your face. But even my wife admits that piano sounds a lot more like a real piano on ATCs 😉
But as I said I'm sold on dipoles. Especially dipole mid and upper bass - there's simply no comparison. Lack of cabinet coloration is simply a revelation.
What I plan is something along NaO lilnes - twice the area in mids for more SPL and less distortion for a given volume, U frame woofers (again more SPL capability and ability to have them sealed on demand for even more capability!) and a decent extension towards upper crossover point allowing experiments with exotic HF transducers (RAALs, Ravens and like 😎 )
The very lowest octaves (<40 or 50Hz) can then be handled by Rythmik or four. That should suffice I think even for largest rooms 😉
Bratislav
Bratislav, not many could boast their wife would even complain about anything done to the speaker boxes! You are a lucky man! 😉
Perhaps you might consider a waveguide on the tweeter to help with SPL. Also you might consider an upscaled Phoenix main panel. I've experimented with U vs H frame and it surprised me that I found no SPL advantage with U frame. I simply moved the baffle from the centre to the end - no advantage. Don't ask me why, it was a crude experiment.
How about something like this:
http://www.members.tripod.com/jimmcdougall/id30.htm
I tend to think you could get a great result with an array of mid priced woofers like Peerless SLS 12" say 50 - 120 Hz with the Rythmiks below.
Perhaps you might consider a waveguide on the tweeter to help with SPL. Also you might consider an upscaled Phoenix main panel. I've experimented with U vs H frame and it surprised me that I found no SPL advantage with U frame. I simply moved the baffle from the centre to the end - no advantage. Don't ask me why, it was a crude experiment.
How about something like this:
http://www.members.tripod.com/jimmcdougall/id30.htm
I tend to think you could get a great result with an array of mid priced woofers like Peerless SLS 12" say 50 - 120 Hz with the Rythmiks below.
paulspencer said:
Paul,
tweeters I have in mind have no problems hitting 120+dB with very little distortion. Even cheap-ish Founteks with their 98-100dB sensitivity will be OK. RAALs are tested with 200W full power with 2.5kHz 2nd order HP filter for 1 hour before delivery (that is 122dB/1m!!!) and will hit even more in bursts. I don't think I'll have to worry about the tweeters 😉
About Jim's uber Phoenix, well, let me put it this way - I think both me and speakers would have very short life expectancy
I've been thinking about AudioArtistry original bass panel. Instead of having a humongous array, pack the woofers into WW like structure (zigzag, but vertical). Much less obstrusive and still full dipole. But that leads to three boxes - mid/HF panel, dipole bass units plus subs. Even I start to think that would be a bit overboard.
Servo driven woofers
Back in the early 80s, I worked on a system made by Philips that had 8" woofers with accelerometers built in the cones. There was a small circuit that mixed the original signal with the output of the accelerometer and provided the amp signal. Wish I still had the info on that just to play with.
Brian, do you know of any plans for a stand alone unit to let a person use thier own amp and a feedback woofer? I have plenty of my own amps around and would like to play with the servo idea more. Regards, Steve
Back in the early 80s, I worked on a system made by Philips that had 8" woofers with accelerometers built in the cones. There was a small circuit that mixed the original signal with the output of the accelerometer and provided the amp signal. Wish I still had the info on that just to play with.
Brian, do you know of any plans for a stand alone unit to let a person use thier own amp and a feedback woofer? I have plenty of my own amps around and would like to play with the servo idea more. Regards, Steve
There was an article in Electronics World, February 1997 which discussed the theory behind this idea. It also supplied a simple amp / servo design... The idea was to use a dual voice coil subwoofer, and use the second coil as the 'feed back'
I have the issue if you would like I can scan the pages for you...
Ed.
I have the issue if you would like I can scan the pages for you...
Ed.
The idea of using a DVC driver with one coil as the sensing coil is discussed on the site:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/faq.html#dvc
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/faq.html#dvc
Eddie Wolve said:
Ed,
It is interesting that you mention this. I also have that article. But I am seriously wondering if anyone other than the author has successfully built one of those systems. I may sound harsh, but the theory involved in a servo system is more than what the article has covered. People will get surprisingly different result by just using a different driver. Without a completely close-form equation for frequency response, people cannot debug their designs.
True..
I too have not built one based on the circuit theory in the article....But it never-the-less gets the mind juices flowing, which is why I still remember the article.....
Ed.
I too have not built one based on the circuit theory in the article....But it never-the-less gets the mind juices flowing, which is why I still remember the article.....
Ed.
Hi Brian,
A few quetion about your sub amp.
Is the A370-SE-12/24 dB switchable model currently avaialble?
Do you still recommand Linkwitz Transform add-on board with this sub amp?
Does it have the option & feature to be Direct Servo-Sub amp?
I currently have a 10" Lambda sub (seal) but like the option of changing to Direct Servo in future using something like the DS12.
How much does it cost to frieght to NZ, is it still $118?
A few quetion about your sub amp.
Is the A370-SE-12/24 dB switchable model currently avaialble?
Do you still recommand Linkwitz Transform add-on board with this sub amp?
Does it have the option & feature to be Direct Servo-Sub amp?
I currently have a 10" Lambda sub (seal) but like the option of changing to Direct Servo in future using something like the DS12.
How much does it cost to frieght to NZ, is it still $118?
Lexicon needed
I am a newbie in this site and still a beginner but while I have just followed the whole thread I am a little lost with the terminology and shorthant you are using.
This may not be the place to ask so I am sorry if this is the wrong forum but i did a search and did not find a dictionary/glossary of terms anywhere.
What do you mean by SQ??
Ignorance is not bliss and it takes a smart man to know how much he still has to learn
Ted
I am a newbie in this site and still a beginner but while I have just followed the whole thread I am a little lost with the terminology and shorthant you are using.
This may not be the place to ask so I am sorry if this is the wrong forum but i did a search and did not find a dictionary/glossary of terms anywhere.
What do you mean by SQ??
Ignorance is not bliss and it takes a smart man to know how much he still has to learn
Ted
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