Yes dave, I know that but to quote the exact text from which I was drawing context;
Frank
I'm sure Dave isn't that stupid as to not realise what the article is about. Microphones do, however, record music and human voices and they are used by professionals who have regard to human sensitivities.
Frank
have you visited the Linkwitz site,,??
the Orions would certainly fill your requirements and are certainly high end speakers,,
exceptionally pure sound with minimal footprint,,
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Derry
the Orions would certainly fill your requirements and are certainly high end speakers,,
exceptionally pure sound with minimal footprint,,
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Derry
Hi Everyone,
Thanks, again, for the information so far. And sorry for not responding earlier; I've been traveling for work.
Until now, no. I'll start to dig into that area a bit more.
Yes, I agree. I certainly need to do some room treatments; specifically a bass trap against that back wall. (The room under the stairs, behind the listening position, is 2x4 + chalk board + cheap door; basically a giant reverb chamber for the bass).
I'd love to do that but there are practical considerations that prevent that (I won't bore you with the details). Unfortunately, the room needs to stay in it's current configuration and I've hated it since day one.
When searching for a flat, a good front room was my only requirement. I remember saying, about this place, "I don't like the lounge; it won't fit my stereo on it properly". The mother-in-law, who was visiting us at the time waxxed lyrical about the place and convinced my wife that she *had* to live here. When it came to discussing it with me, it had already been decided and when I brought up my requirement of a good front room she said, "This place is perfect for they baby, your wife loves it and you want to say no because it doesn't fit your stereo in it? Don't you think that's selfish?"
So, out of guilt, I compromised.
b*tch 🙁
Thanks, again, for the information so far. And sorry for not responding earlier; I've been traveling for work.
Until now, no. I'll start to dig into that area a bit more.
LineArray said:
Yes, I agree. I certainly need to do some room treatments; specifically a bass trap against that back wall. (The room under the stairs, behind the listening position, is 2x4 + chalk board + cheap door; basically a giant reverb chamber for the bass).
LineArray said:
I'd love to do that but there are practical considerations that prevent that (I won't bore you with the details). Unfortunately, the room needs to stay in it's current configuration and I've hated it since day one.
When searching for a flat, a good front room was my only requirement. I remember saying, about this place, "I don't like the lounge; it won't fit my stereo on it properly". The mother-in-law, who was visiting us at the time waxxed lyrical about the place and convinced my wife that she *had* to live here. When it came to discussing it with me, it had already been decided and when I brought up my requirement of a good front room she said, "This place is perfect for they baby, your wife loves it and you want to say no because it doesn't fit your stereo in it? Don't you think that's selfish?"
So, out of guilt, I compromised.
b*tch 🙁
That was my thought.The position of the speakers doesn't look right.But I would guess the acoustics of that room are going to be bad for any speaker.
Given the cramped space you've got, I'd recommend a satellite/subwoofer arrangement.
Find a nice 2-way design (using a 5-6" bass-mid driver) and take it from there.
Find a nice 2-way design (using a 5-6" bass-mid driver) and take it from there.
Yes, I agree. But that's the great part about diy; if at first you don't succeed, try try ... [30 years passes] ... try try again. I'd planned on gaining some experience with construction in advance of putting these together, mostly in the form of prototypes that will help me identify the 'why' of certain configurations.
jrenkin said:
Yes, room treatments are definitely in order. But re-arranging the lounge isn't an option just yet (as mentioned in the post above). I plan to put in a bass trap (behind the chairs) and some diffusers in though.
And, thankfully this is only a rental and is not forever.
But I agree, some room treatments will go a long way to helping me achieve better sound.
Better? No. Close? Sure, why not?
But in order to do that, I need to understand *why* a good loudspeaker is a good loudspeaker and *why* a bad one is a bad one. That learning process will involve experimentation and a lot of reading and, being a math geek, probably even some time spent with a protractor and calculator.
This is why I started a 'rules of thumb' thread. It will nudge me in the general direction of what I need to research.
So let me summarize what points have come up so far, in order of importance [to me] (although I knew some of them already):
- people on this board have tried to get me to think 'out of the box' (bad pun, I know) by suggesting non-enclosure related options
- It isn't easy to build a good speaker but it isn't as hard as some make it out to be either. Magic!!!
- flat frequency response = good
- human ear is most sensitive between 2-4Khz
- speaker design is about compromise; pick your compromises carefully
- spend as much as you can on your mids
- the room is just as important as the speaker; room treatments are key (though I already knew this)
- crossovers are the hardest part to 'get right'
- active speakers are an option (and, with the inclusion of a DSP, are probably easier to 'get right' during the tuning process)
- open spaces in the enclosure should never be square (standing waves)
- links links links links links... awesome!
- cylinder/spherical enclosures (for bass) are most efficient, but carry some drawbacks (I don't yet know *why* but I'm reading as much as I can, in the spare time that I have)
- active crossovers are easier for first-timers as they offer the ability to experiment. (while it's not been said, I suspect that an active will introduce more distortion than a passive because of the additive distortion from the increased number of components)
- it's easier to get it wrong than right
- some seem to view the likes of Linkwitz, Burnett and Troels as deities to be worshiped
Okay, so not all of that came from this thread but most of it.
Some of the above include the 'why', other's don't. It's all valuable input and it's all going into my wiki. The thing that you have to remember is that we first-timers/n00bs lack several things that 'old' timers do.
- We have no idea where to start; ergo 'rules of thumbs' and links to visit (if ever there was an opportunity for a wiki article on this site, it would be "So You Want to Build Speakers But Don't Know Where to Start" <-- That's me, ergo the request for 'rules of thumb'; to start finding the 'whys'! 🙂
- Confidence in our ability to succeed
- Experience (obvious but merits mentioning)
- Skills to do what I want (practice practice practice)
Please note that I do appreciate you trying to set my expectations early. By telling me that this is going to be a journey rather than a project, you're giving me the information that I need to make an informed decision. And that decision is "should I spend my money or my time on my speakers".
If I calculate my time spent on this against my day-rate, buying the speakers will be cheaper. But then, do you ever *really* appreciate anything that you buy? Honestly? Or do you just look for the next fix? diy, while suffering from the same self-dishonesty, is at least productive in-so-far as it teaches you useful skills along the way (unlike skills like 'brown nosing', 'ladder climbing', and 'heart attack from stress at work' type of skills that are involved in spending my money rather than my time).
Cheers,
Dave.
Yeah, I've got the 685's + HTM62 (thinking of upgrading this) + ASW610XP sub and have tried to use them as my fronts.
I'd boxed up the 683's a week in advance of our last move and just used my satellites. The wife asked me if i could 'set the big speakers back up because the small ones were ruining her music'.
This, coming from the woman who (when shopping from speakers) said that she didn't understand why I wanted the bigger speakers because she couldn't hear the difference. 🙂
Hi,
I'm sorry if you find blantant honesty rude. IMO Linkwitz's site is far better
for information on active speakers. The active approach on Rod site is
not the way to build a high quality active speaker.
Being candid, your procedure for designing a high quality 3 to 4 way speaker is
incomplete in details, and there are many things that could go wrong if followed.
As the original poster lacks experience, a phenominal amount of research
would need to be done not to get something wrong or not as intended.
Its far better to follow an acknowledged experienced designers high end
design and accept his compromises than to try to hit a bullseye blindfold.
😎 /Sreten.
Hi,
As active speakers directly connect the amplifer to the drive unit they are normally lower distortion than passive designs. Passive designs are really difficult to optimise but can be very satisfying when you get it right. Active designs are easier to optomise as all the parts don't interact so much.
Whilst 3-4K is the most sensitive region for hearing, most speaker do crossover here and one advantage is that it allows you to adjust the sound in this critical region. You will doubtless hear plenty on the disadvatages.
I would also advise starting with a more modist design than the amount you are proposing.
The more I have learnt about speakers the more I have found I need to know. So your second design will be much much better than your first.
A good simple box if well made will sound better than an averagely made complex shape. So unless you are really good at carpentry you might be better off with a box.
Measure your drive units on and off axis to get some idea of the off axis response of your speakers. Consider at what frequency they will integrate best taking into account both the flatness of the response on and off axis.
Simulate first and try lots of simulations to get a feel for how the response will change as you adjust the componets. This is especially important for passive designs as when you come to tuning you will be able to tune better if you know what components do what.
Here is a bit of my experience in tuning speakers although it is all only generalised and some drive units may respond differently.
Speakers with alot of energy arround 5KHz tend to sound very detailed but a bit harsh. Energy arround 8KHz tends to make the speaker sound detailed and tends to make the instruments highly defined in the image. This is not natural but some people like it. More energy through the 200 to 80Hz region will tend to make the speaker sound warm, too much and it will sound thick and boomy. The 2-4K region affects the vocal significantly and adjusting the phase of the crossove even if it doesn't have much affect on frequency response can adjust the presentation of the vocal.
Some usefull links:-
LinearTeam
Good free box design program (you need the T-S parameters from the speaker you want to use) Follow the help exactly to enter the parameters or it will not allow you to complete the entry.
Speaker Workshop Download
Probably the best free speaker design package but it is evil to learn how to use.
Speaker Workshop Tutorial
one of several tutorial on how to use it (search the web for others)
HOLM Acoustics
Probably the best free measurement software and fairly easy to use. You will need a microphone and a half decent sound card but that is all.
FRD Consortium
Collection of very usefull simulation tools mostly in Excell. Th Baffle Step compenation program is really good for demonstrating how just moving a drive unit a few cm in a cabinet can significantly affect the frequency response.
John Conover: Using the Panasonic WM61A as a Measurement Microphone
How to build a really cheap but flatish response microphone for only a few £ or $. If you only take one peice of advice from me it would be don't try to build speakers without a microphone. It would be like setting sail without even a compass, you can use the sun but its not really that much help unless you have years of experience, your ears are much the same.
Best of Luck,
Andy
As active speakers directly connect the amplifer to the drive unit they are normally lower distortion than passive designs. Passive designs are really difficult to optimise but can be very satisfying when you get it right. Active designs are easier to optomise as all the parts don't interact so much.
Whilst 3-4K is the most sensitive region for hearing, most speaker do crossover here and one advantage is that it allows you to adjust the sound in this critical region. You will doubtless hear plenty on the disadvatages.
I would also advise starting with a more modist design than the amount you are proposing.
The more I have learnt about speakers the more I have found I need to know. So your second design will be much much better than your first.
A good simple box if well made will sound better than an averagely made complex shape. So unless you are really good at carpentry you might be better off with a box.
Measure your drive units on and off axis to get some idea of the off axis response of your speakers. Consider at what frequency they will integrate best taking into account both the flatness of the response on and off axis.
Simulate first and try lots of simulations to get a feel for how the response will change as you adjust the componets. This is especially important for passive designs as when you come to tuning you will be able to tune better if you know what components do what.
Here is a bit of my experience in tuning speakers although it is all only generalised and some drive units may respond differently.
Speakers with alot of energy arround 5KHz tend to sound very detailed but a bit harsh. Energy arround 8KHz tends to make the speaker sound detailed and tends to make the instruments highly defined in the image. This is not natural but some people like it. More energy through the 200 to 80Hz region will tend to make the speaker sound warm, too much and it will sound thick and boomy. The 2-4K region affects the vocal significantly and adjusting the phase of the crossove even if it doesn't have much affect on frequency response can adjust the presentation of the vocal.
Some usefull links:-
LinearTeam
Good free box design program (you need the T-S parameters from the speaker you want to use) Follow the help exactly to enter the parameters or it will not allow you to complete the entry.
Speaker Workshop Download
Probably the best free speaker design package but it is evil to learn how to use.
Speaker Workshop Tutorial
one of several tutorial on how to use it (search the web for others)
HOLM Acoustics
Probably the best free measurement software and fairly easy to use. You will need a microphone and a half decent sound card but that is all.
FRD Consortium
Collection of very usefull simulation tools mostly in Excell. Th Baffle Step compenation program is really good for demonstrating how just moving a drive unit a few cm in a cabinet can significantly affect the frequency response.
John Conover: Using the Panasonic WM61A as a Measurement Microphone
How to build a really cheap but flatish response microphone for only a few £ or $. If you only take one peice of advice from me it would be don't try to build speakers without a microphone. It would be like setting sail without even a compass, you can use the sun but its not really that much help unless you have years of experience, your ears are much the same.
Best of Luck,
Andy
Andy,
I must admit that I only understood a portion of your advice but I'll dig through those links and get myself sorted.
Also, the Coles Notes on frequency bias is extremely valuable (some might disagree with you but at least it's out there).
re: Consider it done.
re: An easier build, I'm getting that impression. When I posted, on facebook, that I'd decided to design/build my own speakers, I found it funny when I got the response, "Go for it! How hard can it be?"
Note: That was a really long post and it, no doubt, took considerable time to compile; thank you.
I must admit that I only understood a portion of your advice but I'll dig through those links and get myself sorted.
Also, the Coles Notes on frequency bias is extremely valuable (some might disagree with you but at least it's out there).
re: Consider it done.
re: An easier build, I'm getting that impression. When I posted, on facebook, that I'd decided to design/build my own speakers, I found it funny when I got the response, "Go for it! How hard can it be?"
Note: That was a really long post and it, no doubt, took considerable time to compile; thank you.
For those of you that find this thread later, I found another useful link: Loudspeaker construction
It touches on many things that I didn't know. (gee, big surprise).
It touches on many things that I didn't know. (gee, big surprise).
Hi,
And TBH it it also ignores a bucket load of other stuff you do not know. No way
as your first project can you build the ultimate speaker, if you think you can
then its only your ignorance that supports such a preposition.
IMO a masterclass in basic speaker design is:Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
If you cannot get your head round this, copy a high quality design.
😎 /Sreten.
Last edited:
re:'The active approach on Rod site is not the way to build a high quality active speaker.
' -pray tell us, why?
re: 'it ignores a bucket load of stuff you do not know' - please tell us what's in the bucket.
It's really easy to be negative; a positive, constructive, reasoned, civil answer takes a little more thought....
' -pray tell us, why?
re: 'it ignores a bucket load of stuff you do not know' - please tell us what's in the bucket.
It's really easy to be negative; a positive, constructive, reasoned, civil answer takes a little more thought....
Considerably better sound could be had by simply changing placement. There is nothing sacred or optimal from a decorator sense about the current placement of furniture - how about put your system where the couch is, put the couch where the two chairs are and put the chairs in front of the fireplace where they can be rotated for listening. Some absorption on the walls either side of the system might give best results....
Alternatively, get a man-cave - as you will never attain nirvana with the system in a corner.
Alternatively, get a man-cave - as you will never attain nirvana with the system in a corner.
I'd love to. But, couch (henceforth, futon) = bed for when family visits. Futon doesn't fit along any other wall in the house (except the garage; in-laws don't like sleeping in the garage). Current placement of furniture maximizes available floor space for daughter to play in without bumping into things.
The current setup isn't sacred; it's just the most practical for our current furniture and... well.. everything other than my listening desires. 🙂
PS - I hate the way that the furniture is laid out too. It's just the reality of the space and my requirements of it.
On a side note, it's a well known fact that the same guy designed nearly 85% of all front rooms/lounges in the UK... And when I meet him, I'm going to beat him so badly that he'll spend 12 months in the hospital. And then, when I get out of jail, I'm going to do it again. 🙂
Last edited:
We're going to have to work on that attitude of yours...- Status
- Not open for further replies.