I've heard the recordings that you talk about.
My tastes are firmly in the Baroque end of organ music. I do enjoy high pressure stops and such but I found the Auditorium organ much to rich in 8 foot tone for my taste. Then again It's all what is selected by the organist as well.
Mark
My tastes are firmly in the Baroque end of organ music. I do enjoy high pressure stops and such but I found the Auditorium organ much to rich in 8 foot tone for my taste. Then again It's all what is selected by the organist as well.
Mark
Don't forget though that organ is both woefully under recorded and poorly recorded... if they ever get it back to even 90% condition, it should sound a whole lot better than it does in either of those recordings. I really hope they pull it off - it's a national treasure that's been neglected for far too long.
It is big but it isn't nice the way it sounds in that cavern or the pokey way you must play it due to reverb time. I have an ancient Mercury record - impressive volume of sound but of no serious artistic value. Maybe that great organ just awaits the right kind of music to sound super.
Ever hear Debussy's Siren on the organ. Long, slow sustained notes, very ethereal? Might suit that organ.
Is that the old Wanamaker organ from the Philadelphia department store?
Ever hear Debussy's Siren on the organ. Long, slow sustained notes, very ethereal? Might suit that organ.
Is that the old Wanamaker organ from the Philadelphia department store?
Maybe... of course, Boardwalk Hall is such a huge place there's probably not a lot they could do other than build the organ as big as possible. Personally, I think it sounds better than one would otherwise believe from such a massive instrument.
The Wanamaker organ is still in Macy's in Philadelphia - it is fully working, regularly played, and I plan to see and hopefully hear it as well this year 🙂
It's the only pipe organ in the world big enough to be compared to the Auditorium organ for size. Depending who you ask, either one could be called world's biggest.
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Hey Mark, that Organ Blaster by Murray really does have low notes.... but....
Just watched the CD electricity on my spectrum analyzer. My "test system" includes rinky-dink iMic (cheapy A/D converter) and rather ordinary or old electronics (if only my speakers were as clean and I have some real nice speakers). So a pinch of salt needed.
1. YES, some 16 Hz. But not a whole lot over ambient. Good lows in most bands. End of 6 and 7 super, lot of 2 too. 12 St. Saens impressive too esp. 20 Hz in finale.
2. Oddly, more 20 Hz than 16. Dunno why? 30 Hz is the routine low range and that is not too dramatic on the spectrum analyzer.
3. Great mass of organ sound we experience is over 60 Hz and sounds profoundly low... but isn't. Conclusion of St. Saens' symphony impressive with bass drum showing up around 40 Hz and profound low notes like 60 Hz.
In order to shake your sternum (or otherwise recognize the fierce curves of Fletcher-Munson phenomenon), 20 Hz would have to be electrically like many times bigger than say 50 or even 40 Hz. But not really present on the CD. Moreover, the physics of moving that much air at 20 Hz is truly forbidding... if we were really honest about it. Most profound speakers are giving us lots of second harmonic that we readily hear (and love) as super-low because a little 40 Hz sounds far louder than any wee 20 Hz we could generate.
Question: we hear beat notes but I assume a mic hears them too? But not, of course, "missing fundamentals."
Gee, I've got watch my tinkling music box recordings now.
Just watched the CD electricity on my spectrum analyzer. My "test system" includes rinky-dink iMic (cheapy A/D converter) and rather ordinary or old electronics (if only my speakers were as clean and I have some real nice speakers). So a pinch of salt needed.
1. YES, some 16 Hz. But not a whole lot over ambient. Good lows in most bands. End of 6 and 7 super, lot of 2 too. 12 St. Saens impressive too esp. 20 Hz in finale.
2. Oddly, more 20 Hz than 16. Dunno why? 30 Hz is the routine low range and that is not too dramatic on the spectrum analyzer.
3. Great mass of organ sound we experience is over 60 Hz and sounds profoundly low... but isn't. Conclusion of St. Saens' symphony impressive with bass drum showing up around 40 Hz and profound low notes like 60 Hz.
In order to shake your sternum (or otherwise recognize the fierce curves of Fletcher-Munson phenomenon), 20 Hz would have to be electrically like many times bigger than say 50 or even 40 Hz. But not really present on the CD. Moreover, the physics of moving that much air at 20 Hz is truly forbidding... if we were really honest about it. Most profound speakers are giving us lots of second harmonic that we readily hear (and love) as super-low because a little 40 Hz sounds far louder than any wee 20 Hz we could generate.
Question: we hear beat notes but I assume a mic hears them too? But not, of course, "missing fundamentals."
Gee, I've got watch my tinkling music box recordings now.
Please excuse me for using cute language but it really was "CD electric" output, not mic. I was watching live action on the MacCRO free- or share-ware spectrum analyzer function. Not high class tools but adequate for the task.
The "iMic" device is an external USB A/D converter but with enough moxie for mics.
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Well yes and no.
Most subwoofers are not up to the task. Take a good look at the threshold levels for the low end. 16 hz is at 85 db. You need to be moving 2.89 liters of air to get that loud in a decent sized room. Most subwoofers are not up to that part of the task. They simple don't have enough woofer area and linear throw to make it happen.
But when you puirpose design a subwoofer then there are areas that can be tweeked and well engineered to get exactly what you are after.
So when you comment that most systems are only giving us loud harmonics. I have to agree. But I don't listen to most systems. I listen to custom designed system. Mine. And I hear the fundamental. Pure clean and with very low distortion levels. Hence the latest and greatest behemoth subwwofer I built. Specifically to create all and sundry away down low so that I could hear it in all it's glory.
The graphic I post below is the best sorted out loudness contours that are available. The old Fletcher Munson curve is there for reference. The gist of the reasoning is better speakers lower distortion and therefore beter acuity in hearing the tone in the first place.
To get the 108 to 110 db at 16 hz on a few of the recordings that are available you need to be moving 4 liters of air. That is 4 15" drivers of normal capabilities or two hum dingers.
Or you could horn load a driver and get the low down loud. The expense is box size. The downside is that a proper horn will have greatly reduced distortion compared to a direct radiator.
Mark
I should add this recording to the list of vibratory wonders.
Raven OAR-380 The great Skinner Organ, Girard College, Philadelphia Peter Sykes Organist.
Gustav Holst The Planets
All the missing chords that you knew could be completed a way down low are there. And Jupiter is particularly impressive.
Attachments
This is why I picked the 16Hz corner for that massive Tang Band project also... wanted flawless reproduction down to the bottom of a 32' organ stop, and at high volume too for movies.
So far, I haven't even tried getting 110dB at 16Hz out of it. The problem there is I can't drive the amp hard enough with REW's test tones to get it that loud (computer to a pro audio amp, no direct box). And I don't have a way to plug the computer into the receiver to act as a preamp to boost the level. So, about the only way I have to really push the thing at those frequencies is to fire up a big bass movie. When I feel the couch shivering on concrete, I know it's starting to get serious 😀
Best I've done with the REW test tones is about 95-100dB at 16Hz. That's with every gain control in the chain maxed. It's like someone's using a jackhammer upstairs, the walls rattle that bad. Can't hear the fundamental over all the rattling.
Anyhow, below the 16Hz corner, the TB horn acts pretty much like any other. Enough volume, and you get lots of harmonics but no fundamental. It plays down to 15Hz and that's all you get from it. During excursion testing I used a 10Hz sine wave - I couldn't get it to bottom the woofers out because every time I went for it, it started beating the stuffing out of me and everything in the room with the harmonics.
Listened to Jean Guillou's pipe organ version of Pictures at an Exhibition earlier. That was nice 🙂
Yep I know what your talking about there.
I have a different problem but the same outcome.
With just over 100 watts I can do 118 db at 20 hz and about the same with room gain at 16 hz. But try measuring that!
So it is outside ground plane measurement. I can strap on the required mathematics and it will be a sound measurement. Just need some time. Before I had time but it rained every day the past week and a half.
I have that disc to. Dorian Pictures at an exhibition. Some of my favaorite stuff is in Baba Yaga. Thequiet areas where he pops down to the basement and the end of Baba Yaga and is pulling off insane pedal point underneath everything. WIth most systems you are not really even getting the hint of what is happening down in the low end.
Mark
I know that part - it's actually more fun to listen to in the car, because I get pressure vessel gain in there. A little bit of subtle treble while the pedal notes press in on you like a living thing - it's a total blast 😀
Here in the basement, which is open to the upstairs, I get no such thing. I get some room gain, but no pressure vessel gain 🙁
Here in the basement, which is open to the upstairs, I get no such thing. I get some room gain, but no pressure vessel gain 🙁
Hi BENTORONTO,
How do you a spectrum analysis. right now I am listening to Music for Organ, Brass and Timpany(Anthony Newman organist) and there are some awsome lows. My speakers are vintage IMF TLS 80 Mk II monitors.
Could you start me off on the spectrum analysis business. Or anyone else who may care to help.
Regards
William
1. Download / install the latest version of Audacity. There are versions for several different operating systems. (Audacity: Download)
2. Load a track (WAV or MP3): File --> Import --> Audio (or Ctrl-Shift-I)
3. Set the spectrogram range: Edit --> Preferences --> Spectrograms
Window size: 4096
Window type: Hanning
Minimum frequency: 0
Maximum frequency: 200
Gain: 20
Range: 80 (or less)
Frequency gain: 0
Optionally, Tick the grayscale box.
4. Convert the level display to spectrogram:
In the stereo track display, click on the track title box (with the downward pointing arrow).
From the dropdown list, select "Spectrum".
An analysis will be shown for the track in 10Hz bands from 0 to 200 Hz.
You can zoom into various sections for more detail.
To display the frequency analysis at a given point:
1. Highlight the section to be analysed.
2. Select Analyze --> Plot spectrum.
3. For highest resolution in the bass region, set the size to 16384 and "Log Frequency" display.
2. Load a track (WAV or MP3): File --> Import --> Audio (or Ctrl-Shift-I)
3. Set the spectrogram range: Edit --> Preferences --> Spectrograms
Window size: 4096
Window type: Hanning
Minimum frequency: 0
Maximum frequency: 200
Gain: 20
Range: 80 (or less)
Frequency gain: 0
Optionally, Tick the grayscale box.
4. Convert the level display to spectrogram:
In the stereo track display, click on the track title box (with the downward pointing arrow).
From the dropdown list, select "Spectrum".
An analysis will be shown for the track in 10Hz bands from 0 to 200 Hz.
You can zoom into various sections for more detail.
To display the frequency analysis at a given point:
1. Highlight the section to be analysed.
2. Select Analyze --> Plot spectrum.
3. For highest resolution in the bass region, set the size to 16384 and "Log Frequency" display.
Not sure I can be much help, William. I use a Mac and an old shareware or freeware program called MacCRO but which works poorly with the current operating system (hint: when you change spectrum analyzer parameters, switch back to scope and then back to spectrum analyzer). But absolutely a piece of cake and works in real-time.
Just plug one (or stereo) lines into an iMic (also works directly with a mic) and watch the dancing chart line. That's it. Or you might already have an audio input or card. Soon you'll see very obvious peaks at familiar frequencies like 31.5 Hz, at least it is very clear with organ music.
If you don't have test gear, all you need to do is buy a Denon test CD or other CD with test tones (or burn one of your own), and watch on your spectrum analyzer. If the test tone is 40 Hz, you should see nothing but 40 Hz. My guess is this system can reveal distortion products or hum below maybe .25% of the basic tone, if you crank up the scale. Fabulous how clean our systems are (and that includes even the cheap iMic USB A/D converter in the measurement too). And you can use the dual-trace scope just as you would any real oscilloscope.
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QUOTE=wtaylorbasil
Hi Don Hill. Many thanks for the help but I am unable to get results yet. Please see below.
1. Downlosded Audacity 1.2.6
2. File does not give "Import" option. File, open and loaded a wav track
3. File preferences, FFT size 4096, tick grey scale & max frequency 200. No min frequency, gain, range or frequency gain options available
Then your steps 4 not available and hence sub step 1 to 3 unable to do.
Where Am I going wrong
William
The lowest note on most pianos is A1, which is about 27 Hz. A 5 string bass guitar can get down to B1, which is about 31 Hz.
Apparently, a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand can go down to C0, which is 16 Hz, and an "organ" can get down to C-1, which is about 8 Hz. Not that you'd hear it, but you'd certainly feel it!
Audio frequency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One other thing... having played with spectrum analyzers a bunch (I wrote a DOS program called MicFFT that was one of the first PC-based spectrum analyzers many years ago), I can recall looking at FFT outputs in which it appeared that most of the sound from low E on a bass was at about 80 Hz or so. It turns out that the fundamental is at about 44 Hz or so, but that the 2nd harmonic was the most prominent. It could be that the fundamental of that organ was much lower. Our ears can hear the "missing fundamental" based on the order of harmonics. This is why you can tell the difference between E1 and E2 of a bass guitar played over computer speakers that have a frequency response cutoff at around 100 Hz or so.
You'd hear the harmonics... the only two actual 64' stops in the world do make audible noise above the fundamental:
YouTube - Demonstration of the 64' Contra Trombone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wonLE3QZfnI
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Cool, thanks for the listing on those low tone CD's. to quote "Remind me again why anybody _wants_ vinyl." I first heard P&F in C min by JSB in 1961 on the FM radio, bought the vinyl LP, became a real fan. Finally found a 25 pedal organ I can afford 49 years later. Wow, that 32' bass on the Hammond H100 is amazing. Played the LP again after I learned 2 pages of the piece on the Hammond, even with 15" woofers in the SP2 speakers the Hammond has the LP beat for shaking the viscera. But it all started by hearing the LP over a tinny little 5" table radio speaker.
The Hammond H100 came with a "free" P40 "tone cabinet" which has another 15" speaker in a box 48" tall ported at the top. I haven't hooked it up, I'm afraid of the 120VAC run in the rubber 9 pin cord. Forty year old rubber is dirt. But I wonder if Hammond knew something about making a subwoofer. It has it's own transistor amp that is transformer coupled (the last of a long line of interstage transformers), I haven't bothered to recap it yet until I figure out how to sanely power it and interface it.
The Hammond H100 came with a "free" P40 "tone cabinet" which has another 15" speaker in a box 48" tall ported at the top. I haven't hooked it up, I'm afraid of the 120VAC run in the rubber 9 pin cord. Forty year old rubber is dirt. But I wonder if Hammond knew something about making a subwoofer. It has it's own transistor amp that is transformer coupled (the last of a long line of interstage transformers), I haven't bothered to recap it yet until I figure out how to sanely power it and interface it.
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