Look, this is a digital box. That big square multipin thing on the processor board means it is pretty late. The reverb will be a mathemetical effect on the waveform in the CPU, not a spring tank and not a Panasonic bit bucket CCD IC.
When you have digital problems, the sound you get is hash, nothing like a coherent waveform of any shape. I've you've got beeping or squeaking or distortion, you have an analog problem. there is not much to this device that is analog. the power supplies, an amp ic or two, and some filtering and shaping circuits.
You can't even buy the digital parts, and if you could you don't have the $1000 in tooling to sweat those things off the board and put them back. You can change some known short life components in the power supplies and analog sections, or you can send the thing to a roland authorized shop to be repaired, or you can buy a new one.
I've fixed a PC by replacing e-caps. The poster with the roland Jazz Chorus, the link in post #9, replaced some e-caps and got rid of his squeak. Analyzing the sound is not going to fix it. You might measure some resistors in the discrete analog area, or transistors if there are any, or regulator ICs on the power for proper voltage out, but 9 times out of 10 in the analog area on equipment more than 5 years old on a PC and 15 years old on "quality" consumer equipment, the e-caps are hosed. Do what you want. Buying all those caps on there shouldn't cost over $20, depends on what your time is worth whether you want to try that or buy a new keyboard or pay a pro with access to factory repair boards that were checked on a $50000 digital computer driven test jig.
Measuring old e-caps is a waste of time IMHO, they are wet systems and highly non-linear when it comes to temperature effects and nobody bragging about his cherry old caps on here has put them in an enviromental chamber and re-run the tests at 40 deg F, and 150 deg F, which are reasonable operating temperatures. Furthermore most e-caps are sealed with rubber, which breaks down due to to oxygen. So great measurement today, leaky P** tomorrow. Why don't they insist on original tires on antique cars at the Pebble Beach Consours de Elegance? Because old rubber is dirt in a round form!
There are e-caps sealed with epoxy, that can last 50 years. You won't find these in a piece of consumer electronics. You are lucky if they didn't buy the 500 hour grade. All my TV remotes and DTV converters are dying at 4 years, and it is not the battery probably. Some people think Allen organs are full of epoxy caps, but a church on organforum had had a funny buzz in their digital Allen MOS organ, after $2000 in factory boards, it was still there. IMHO the mixer stage, the power amp, or the speaker crossover, is full of worn out caps. but we won't know the church set it on the curb for the garbage man. At least your keyboard doesn't have a rubber speaker surround to be suspect.
When you have digital problems, the sound you get is hash, nothing like a coherent waveform of any shape. I've you've got beeping or squeaking or distortion, you have an analog problem. there is not much to this device that is analog. the power supplies, an amp ic or two, and some filtering and shaping circuits.
You can't even buy the digital parts, and if you could you don't have the $1000 in tooling to sweat those things off the board and put them back. You can change some known short life components in the power supplies and analog sections, or you can send the thing to a roland authorized shop to be repaired, or you can buy a new one.
I've fixed a PC by replacing e-caps. The poster with the roland Jazz Chorus, the link in post #9, replaced some e-caps and got rid of his squeak. Analyzing the sound is not going to fix it. You might measure some resistors in the discrete analog area, or transistors if there are any, or regulator ICs on the power for proper voltage out, but 9 times out of 10 in the analog area on equipment more than 5 years old on a PC and 15 years old on "quality" consumer equipment, the e-caps are hosed. Do what you want. Buying all those caps on there shouldn't cost over $20, depends on what your time is worth whether you want to try that or buy a new keyboard or pay a pro with access to factory repair boards that were checked on a $50000 digital computer driven test jig.
Measuring old e-caps is a waste of time IMHO, they are wet systems and highly non-linear when it comes to temperature effects and nobody bragging about his cherry old caps on here has put them in an enviromental chamber and re-run the tests at 40 deg F, and 150 deg F, which are reasonable operating temperatures. Furthermore most e-caps are sealed with rubber, which breaks down due to to oxygen. So great measurement today, leaky P** tomorrow. Why don't they insist on original tires on antique cars at the Pebble Beach Consours de Elegance? Because old rubber is dirt in a round form!
There are e-caps sealed with epoxy, that can last 50 years. You won't find these in a piece of consumer electronics. You are lucky if they didn't buy the 500 hour grade. All my TV remotes and DTV converters are dying at 4 years, and it is not the battery probably. Some people think Allen organs are full of epoxy caps, but a church on organforum had had a funny buzz in their digital Allen MOS organ, after $2000 in factory boards, it was still there. IMHO the mixer stage, the power amp, or the speaker crossover, is full of worn out caps. but we won't know the church set it on the curb for the garbage man. At least your keyboard doesn't have a rubber speaker surround to be suspect.
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Looking through the schematics in the SM I am unable to locate the reverb cct.
Any ideas?
There is an 'effects' RAM - could this be it?
Any ideas?
There is an 'effects' RAM - could this be it?
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Indianajo,
Thank-you greatly for your input, obviously I am very naive in this area and learning from peoples expertise.
Replacing the e-caps may well be the way to go and normally would not hesitate replacing wherever possible however there are many on the Power/Amp board and a few on the Main board so apart from cost / time which is not an issue my concerns are more causing further damage or introducing new faults due to the fact that I believe the boards are multi-layer.
It was my intention to try and narrow down the most likely area to start with first.
Thank-you greatly for your input, obviously I am very naive in this area and learning from peoples expertise.
Replacing the e-caps may well be the way to go and normally would not hesitate replacing wherever possible however there are many on the Power/Amp board and a few on the Main board so apart from cost / time which is not an issue my concerns are more causing further damage or introducing new faults due to the fact that I believe the boards are multi-layer.
It was my intention to try and narrow down the most likely area to start with first.
My computer mainboard was multilayer and I got caps out and back again. I'm communicating on it now. That Roland Jazz chorus was probably digital with a multilayer board. quite possibly some same digital parts as yours, only the software would be different.
With all the sounds and effects being subroutines (software) of a processor, if it makes music at all it is not a digital problem. That leads you to the power board and maybe the final amp circuits. All you can do is change caps, resistors, or regulator parts. One other thing on keyboards, if one key goes bad, changing the rubber key contact is amateur possible. You don't have that problem.
If it is ROHS compliant (look at lable), you'll need an especially hot iron. I don't have a recommendation; I used a 130 W Sears pistol tool on the computer board, and that is one step less dangerous than a propane torch. Then I used a #60 drill in a pin vise to drill the solder stuck in the holes out. Old computers are $10 each, what's to lose. I just hate importing new electronics from people that threaten our allies with missiles frigates, threaten neighbors of a different race with thought control, dissapearance, and beatings, and then send systems I could have made work again to the dump.
R**** S**** irons are ****. I've been eyeing a $160 Weller 75 watt digital workstation like the guys at work used, but that was before ROHS solder was invented. I suck old solder up in old stripped wire dipped in Oatey #5 paste, then wash the flux off with a damp paper towel. Use safety glasses, solder can splash.
With all the sounds and effects being subroutines (software) of a processor, if it makes music at all it is not a digital problem. That leads you to the power board and maybe the final amp circuits. All you can do is change caps, resistors, or regulator parts. One other thing on keyboards, if one key goes bad, changing the rubber key contact is amateur possible. You don't have that problem.
If it is ROHS compliant (look at lable), you'll need an especially hot iron. I don't have a recommendation; I used a 130 W Sears pistol tool on the computer board, and that is one step less dangerous than a propane torch. Then I used a #60 drill in a pin vise to drill the solder stuck in the holes out. Old computers are $10 each, what's to lose. I just hate importing new electronics from people that threaten our allies with missiles frigates, threaten neighbors of a different race with thought control, dissapearance, and beatings, and then send systems I could have made work again to the dump.
R**** S**** irons are ****. I've been eyeing a $160 Weller 75 watt digital workstation like the guys at work used, but that was before ROHS solder was invented. I suck old solder up in old stripped wire dipped in Oatey #5 paste, then wash the flux off with a damp paper towel. Use safety glasses, solder can splash.
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Your reverb is just another algorithm in the digital section.
I am still convinced you have some cyclical noise in the sound generation. It might be some stuck digital bit cycling through or not. The reverb is not involved, but it does tell us in terms of the organization of th system, the reverb is after whatever is making the noise.
It is just my opinion, but I don;t really think a worn out cap is causing that very even regular pulse every second or whatever the interval.
I am still convinced you have some cyclical noise in the sound generation. It might be some stuck digital bit cycling through or not. The reverb is not involved, but it does tell us in terms of the organization of th system, the reverb is after whatever is making the noise.
It is just my opinion, but I don;t really think a worn out cap is causing that very even regular pulse every second or whatever the interval.
Thanks Enzo
So doesn't look like its going to be an easy fix, but would there be any way of filtering out the 'noise'?
So doesn't look like its going to be an easy fix, but would there be any way of filtering out the 'noise'?
Power supply glitches in the 1 microsecond or less range, as low as 1 nanosecond can cause digital electronic circuits to fault. this is at the IC, not at the power supply filter. you can 1. buy a $7000 tek 466 single sweep scope to see if these transient voltages exist or 2. buy and install a $20 new set of power supply filter caps or 3. pay the authorized repairman whatever Roland thinks he is worth or 4. throw your device away.
If you want to experiment with filters, try a 13 or more band graphic equalizer on the output. these devices are about $60 with bad filter caps (hum) and or bad slide pots, or $200 used and restored. I predict that anything that removes an ittermittant beep, will make your piano sound like a rhodes electronic or something worse. Piano hammer strike creates a lot of high frequency transients, more on a tightly strung Bosendorfer than on a heavier string Steinway.
With used 4.3 ghz person computers running $80 , you might want to consider using the midi output of this to run a program into a sound card on a computer. There are synthisis programs, a free one is jorgan, which does not do piano. If this Roland doesn't source midi, you might pick up an old casio or something that does. My midi converter card is ISA buss, which new computers don't have slots for anymore. Be sure to pick a computer midi card that will fit in the computer, like PCI buss or something.
If you want to experiment with filters, try a 13 or more band graphic equalizer on the output. these devices are about $60 with bad filter caps (hum) and or bad slide pots, or $200 used and restored. I predict that anything that removes an ittermittant beep, will make your piano sound like a rhodes electronic or something worse. Piano hammer strike creates a lot of high frequency transients, more on a tightly strung Bosendorfer than on a heavier string Steinway.
With used 4.3 ghz person computers running $80 , you might want to consider using the midi output of this to run a program into a sound card on a computer. There are synthisis programs, a free one is jorgan, which does not do piano. If this Roland doesn't source midi, you might pick up an old casio or something that does. My midi converter card is ISA buss, which new computers don't have slots for anymore. Be sure to pick a computer midi card that will fit in the computer, like PCI buss or something.
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I should also add that the fault noise is still present even when playing the keyboard said:
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IMHO, no. The 8085 was about the last computer you could debug with even a logic analyzer ($6000 instrument). After that they build special purpose testers for $50-100000, which are kept at the factory board repair depot.
I have made a 'pedal', soldered wires to a 5P Din plug to 2 switches and used all I could find a ceramic 100nF cap.
Problem is whilst playing the keyboard and throwing the switches there is no difference to the notes, tried changing settings on the piano to no avail.
Could it be the cap is the wrong type?
On the schematics it shows it as a 0.1c, does the 'c' denote that it is ceramic?
That is 100nF or 0.1uF, right?
Also I think the symbol shows it as non-polarised.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
Problem is whilst playing the keyboard and throwing the switches there is no difference to the notes, tried changing settings on the piano to no avail.
Could it be the cap is the wrong type?
On the schematics it shows it as a 0.1c, does the 'c' denote that it is ceramic?
That is 100nF or 0.1uF, right?
Also I think the symbol shows it as non-polarised.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
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OK, so seems the Damper is now working, allows the sound to continue playing after releasing a key, must have been a loose connection on the power/amp board as it started working after re-seating a connector.
The Soft doesn't seem to do much but may not fully understand what its supposed to do, shall have to read up and test further.
The Soft doesn't seem to do much but may not fully understand what its supposed to do, shall have to read up and test further.
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OK, so seems the Damper is now working, allows the sound to continue playing after releasing a key, must have been a loose connection on the power/amp board as it started working after re-seating a connector. It can also be re-assigned as Sostenuto which has also been confirmed as working (only holds the first chord pressed, subsequent keys are unaffected).
The Soft doesn't seem to do much but may not fully understand what its supposed to do, shall have to read up and test further. OK so seems this only has an effect on certain keys, with my hearing I only hear a difference on the last 3 right most keys.
Also on the 'Test check' function the pedals check out ok, press the pedal(in my case flick the switch) get a 'whoop' sound, flick it back and get a 'ding' sound, led distinguishes, does this for both pedals (switches).
Only thing left to check now is the Midi In/Out via cable.
The Soft doesn't seem to do much but may not fully understand what its supposed to do, shall have to read up and test further. OK so seems this only has an effect on certain keys, with my hearing I only hear a difference on the last 3 right most keys.
Also on the 'Test check' function the pedals check out ok, press the pedal(in my case flick the switch) get a 'whoop' sound, flick it back and get a 'ding' sound, led distinguishes, does this for both pedals (switches).
Only thing left to check now is the Midi In/Out via cable.
Function check I have no advice on, I've never operated one of these and don't know the functions. Ask me about a wood piano, those you don't have to disassemble the program to figure out what is supposed to work and how.
.1 uf caps are either cylinders, which are plactic film, for precision in filtering analog voltage sound, or flat disk or square ceramic type, which are imprecise, temperature variable, and extremely fast for providing quick power to digital circuits that create big current transients when the switch. Neither type is known for deteriorating due to time. Electrolytic caps have a plus on one end, or a minus in balls pointing to the other lead. Ceramics and film caps are not polarized, although sometimes there is a line near one lead for the outer wrap of metal (this is for radio use).
If you can salvage this as a midi encoder, you are ahead, as any cheap PC (towers are $80 now) can run a synthesis program. For more on the options, read organforum.com, the midi electronics forum or the Virtual organ thread. Whether you get organ sounds or piano depends on what software you buy. there are a lot of problems with early units not sending certain codes, people buy midi analyzer programs for the PC to find out what the encoder is sending.
Good luck.
.1 uf caps are either cylinders, which are plactic film, for precision in filtering analog voltage sound, or flat disk or square ceramic type, which are imprecise, temperature variable, and extremely fast for providing quick power to digital circuits that create big current transients when the switch. Neither type is known for deteriorating due to time. Electrolytic caps have a plus on one end, or a minus in balls pointing to the other lead. Ceramics and film caps are not polarized, although sometimes there is a line near one lead for the outer wrap of metal (this is for radio use).
If you can salvage this as a midi encoder, you are ahead, as any cheap PC (towers are $80 now) can run a synthesis program. For more on the options, read organforum.com, the midi electronics forum or the Virtual organ thread. Whether you get organ sounds or piano depends on what software you buy. there are a lot of problems with early units not sending certain codes, people buy midi analyzer programs for the PC to find out what the encoder is sending.
Good luck.
Just to update with progress, received a Midi to Midi cable and connected up during Test function, all checks out OK.
Also received a USB to Midi cable and basic functions work, receives Midi code from piano and sends fine.
Theres no Midi code generated by the 'fault noise' from the piano but the led on the cable is indicating a signal is present as it is constantly flashing whereas I would only expect it to flash during tx and rx signals.
I think I can safely say that the Midi In/Out is working fine.
Also received a USB to Midi cable and basic functions work, receives Midi code from piano and sends fine.
Theres no Midi code generated by the 'fault noise' from the piano but the led on the cable is indicating a signal is present as it is constantly flashing whereas I would only expect it to flash during tx and rx signals.
I think I can safely say that the Midi In/Out is working fine.
Congratulations. Your digital instrument is still good for something with a PC or laptop computer.
Read threads in this forum about midi software and the sound generation software. MIDI Devices & Software
Some packages are organ only, some also contain piano sounds. I imagine you will prefer the latter.
Have a great (Britain) holiday.
Read threads in this forum about midi software and the sound generation software. MIDI Devices & Software
Some packages are organ only, some also contain piano sounds. I imagine you will prefer the latter.
Have a great (Britain) holiday.
Why is the sound sample periodic? Does the HP-1 have a sequencer and was it playing voice 006?
The "snare"/chiffy sound has a period is exactly 120 bpm. It looks like you are driving the digital piano with Midi. If you play the piano manually, does the pitch of the "snare"-noise change?
The "snare"/chiffy sound has a period is exactly 120 bpm. It looks like you are driving the digital piano with Midi. If you play the piano manually, does the pitch of the "snare"-noise change?
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