Previously, a lot of people used the EMU 0404 or 0204 for measurements - they had very low distortion, high dynamic range, and in general the high objective performance needed for measuring DACs and other DIY equipment. With those cards discontinued (and I don't plan to look at the used market) I'm looking for alternatives. Most people on the internet recommend those two devices when talking about measurements, or talk about more expensive analysers/pro soundcards. There's not much talk about cheaper interfaces for beginning DIYers.
Currently, it looks like I have to pay a lot of money to get more performance than what the cheap audio interfaces can provide. I might plan to do a bit of recording in the future, so I don't want to just purchase a consumer card with a line input.
Basically, I want something with actual line-level inputs (that support a full 2Vrms, not ones that clip when fed a full-scale signal), have low THD (around 0.002% or less, just in case I build some higher-end equipment), support 24/192, and use USB or PCIE connections. I'm just wondering as to what you guys are using for your measurements, and maybe give me some suggestions for what I can buy. My budget is around $200 or so.
Thanks!
Currently, it looks like I have to pay a lot of money to get more performance than what the cheap audio interfaces can provide. I might plan to do a bit of recording in the future, so I don't want to just purchase a consumer card with a line input.
Basically, I want something with actual line-level inputs (that support a full 2Vrms, not ones that clip when fed a full-scale signal), have low THD (around 0.002% or less, just in case I build some higher-end equipment), support 24/192, and use USB or PCIE connections. I'm just wondering as to what you guys are using for your measurements, and maybe give me some suggestions for what I can buy. My budget is around $200 or so.
Thanks!
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The QA400 only supports a maximum of 1.41Vrms before clipping, which is completely unacceptable for testing line-level equipment. Some people here are working on external circuitry to bring the voltage down, but I do prefer native 2Vrms support whenever possible. Most of the pro interfaces have volume pots that can directly scale the input down without too much trouble.
The problem with used analysers is that I have no idea whether or not they're actually accurate (the cheap ones are many, many years old). It's easy to get swindled on eBay by someone who's selling a defective device.
The problem with used analysers is that I have no idea whether or not they're actually accurate (the cheap ones are many, many years old). It's easy to get swindled on eBay by someone who's selling a defective device.
I think the EMU tracker pre is still current and it works pretty well for me as a portable USB interface. For PCIE I would suggest the Juli@ which has a balanced interface option and can handle 2V on either balanced or unbalanced.
I use and like a lot RME Fireface. Mine is Firewire, but there is USB one as well:
RME: Fireface UC
This one is not cheap interface, but it is in my opinion the best one. Drivers are solid, ether on Mac or on PC. They have been the leader when it comes to high quality interface. I will have a hard time expressing how happy I am with it. There was not one instance that I had problem with drivers with any release or update. Otherwise very good specs.
Outside of that, I would think you would be surprised how used old gear is still relevant. With computer interface you also have to make sure that all settings are all the time the same and unchanged, where with professional equipment is just turn on and go. All in all, it all depends what is that you want to do. For analog measurement test gear still has an edge. For digital, you would need to put a lots of money to reach the performance of the computer interface, as long as you know what are you doing. I hope this helps.
RME: Fireface UC
This one is not cheap interface, but it is in my opinion the best one. Drivers are solid, ether on Mac or on PC. They have been the leader when it comes to high quality interface. I will have a hard time expressing how happy I am with it. There was not one instance that I had problem with drivers with any release or update. Otherwise very good specs.
Outside of that, I would think you would be surprised how used old gear is still relevant. With computer interface you also have to make sure that all settings are all the time the same and unchanged, where with professional equipment is just turn on and go. All in all, it all depends what is that you want to do. For analog measurement test gear still has an edge. For digital, you would need to put a lots of money to reach the performance of the computer interface, as long as you know what are you doing. I hope this helps.
If the thd doesnt increase due to input source z being too high and causing non-linearity with opamp...... the QA400 input Z is 10K - so put a 10K in series at the input jack to pcb and get a 2:1 divider or input sensitivity changed to 2.4vrms. Etc. ??
THx-RNMarsh
THx-RNMarsh
Hello df audio ,
I use some of my own products for audio (but not only) measurements, but i use also
the very good sound card from ESI, the Juli@.
It's an internat PCI sound card, but now the same exist in PCI-E .You can look HERE.
This sound card cost about 120€ and use a very good DAC and ADC.
It support sampling rate up to 192kHz for both in and out, and the SPDIF link too.
Many DIyers here know well this board for it's very good price/perf ratio.
I don't remember about the nominal full scale input level, bute the alaog inputs
can be asymetric or symetric, and in this case the sound will probably support
this level witout saurate. I hope that will help you !
Regards.
Frex
I use some of my own products for audio (but not only) measurements, but i use also
the very good sound card from ESI, the Juli@.
It's an internat PCI sound card, but now the same exist in PCI-E .You can look HERE.
This sound card cost about 120€ and use a very good DAC and ADC.
It support sampling rate up to 192kHz for both in and out, and the SPDIF link too.
Many DIyers here know well this board for it's very good price/perf ratio.
I don't remember about the nominal full scale input level, bute the alaog inputs
can be asymetric or symetric, and in this case the sound will probably support
this level witout saurate. I hope that will help you !
Regards.
Frex
@1audio: The EMU Tracker Pre, like the other EMU products, is discontinued. Only unstable beta drivers are avaliable, and I'll have to buy a used product (which I don't want to).
@AR2: The problem with used gear is the old drivers (as mentioned earlier), or in the case of analog test gear my inability to test the equipment before making the final sale. For an inexperienced person like me, the chance of getting swindled is pretty high. If you work carefully, write down your settings, and check the meters before testing, I think it's possible to use an interface for testing purposes. The RME and similar gear is great - for professional developers. I don't have the budget and need for such accuracy so far.
The Juli@ does look nice though (I've never heard of ESI until now) and may fit my needs. Time for more research...
@AR2: The problem with used gear is the old drivers (as mentioned earlier), or in the case of analog test gear my inability to test the equipment before making the final sale. For an inexperienced person like me, the chance of getting swindled is pretty high. If you work carefully, write down your settings, and check the meters before testing, I think it's possible to use an interface for testing purposes. The RME and similar gear is great - for professional developers. I don't have the budget and need for such accuracy so far.
The Juli@ does look nice though (I've never heard of ESI until now) and may fit my needs. Time for more research...
I have modified 0404 and 0204 .... still have the EMU 0404. never used them afterwards.... driver issues make them a hassle to use on newer gen computers. Moved on to the QA400..... put a 10K input level control pot in front of it and it is now PnP operation. Then moved on to 339A and then to ShibaSoku 725D and then to Audio-Precision 2722 with options. As you can see, I have ran the whole gamut. I like the PnP and portability of the QA400 with any computer....desk top or portable.
With the sound cards (if you find one you like)... I only use portable computers these days.... the software available is more flexible for other uses than distortion... recording and acoustic measurements, for example.
THx-RNMarsh
With the sound cards (if you find one you like)... I only use portable computers these days.... the software available is more flexible for other uses than distortion... recording and acoustic measurements, for example.
THx-RNMarsh
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I understand your issues around discontinued products. I did a quick survey of the USB audio interfaces at Sweetwater and confirmed that operation over 96K is not available on the reasonably priced interfaces. Windows does not have native support for USB audio UAC 2 so you only get 96K without drivers. Most of the boxes I saw were not sophisticated and many were 44.1/16 bit. The market for them doesn't seem to care for the higher performance solutions. That's probably why the EMU stuff has been discontinued (not to mention that Creative has no clue how to sell to the Musical Instrument market).
The market is moving towards homerecorders who want free software and fancy looks rather than people who care about specs. For example, M-Audio discontinued its higher spec products like Audiophile USB, Fast Track Pro, etc. in favour of 16 bit models. Many companies like Roland, MOTU, etc. don't even bother listing any measurements on their sites, and those who do don't exactly show very good numbers.
There are products out there like the RME mentioned earlier, the Tascam UH-7000, and the Focusrite Forte. And they're unfortunately too expensive for a hobbyist.
There are products out there like the RME mentioned earlier, the Tascam UH-7000, and the Focusrite Forte. And they're unfortunately too expensive for a hobbyist.
Would you know how good its adc section is in practice ? I'm currently using an aureon sky fort basic measurements but it's far from perfect (90db snr [emoji13] ) and, just like df, the devices I test are often much better. The julia looks indeed like a nice upgrade for reasonable money.
The specs are all in the user manual. While the ADC THD isn't mentioned, it uses the AK5385A which has 103 db THD in theory (less in practice, but should still be pretty good).
However, there is a problem with the ESI that I found when looking at the manual - the inputs appear to have no volume control. This has been already mentioned in a review. Maybe someone with the card can elaborate on this, as that would make me not want to use this for recording and testing.
However, there is a problem with the ESI that I found when looking at the manual - the inputs appear to have no volume control. This has been already mentioned in a review. Maybe someone with the card can elaborate on this, as that would make me not want to use this for recording and testing.
I have done extensive measurements and testing with the juli@ card. The input gains are fixed and you would need to use an external control or mixer with it. This is actually typical of the pro PCI cards. You would not want digital volume control since it would not optimize the SNR and you would still have the same overload issues. The USB boxes have analog pots on the front but analog pots on a PCI card at the back of a PC would not be too useful.
Attached is a measurement I made of a stock Juli@ card in March. While there are limitations in the card they are not significant in normal audio testing. The control panel works well and its integration in XP is great. it works fine in Win 7 but all cards in Win 7 get caught in the sample rate converter stuff. You need to manually switch the Win sample rate to match the card and the application. ASIO avoids this but still requires manual intervention.
Attached is a measurement I made of a stock Juli@ card in March. While there are limitations in the card they are not significant in normal audio testing. The control panel works well and its integration in XP is great. it works fine in Win 7 but all cards in Win 7 get caught in the sample rate converter stuff. You need to manually switch the Win sample rate to match the card and the application. ASIO avoids this but still requires manual intervention.
Attachments
The card the user recommended is pretty poor in comparison for performance. I think that user is naive. In pro applications you want a few controls as possible (eliminates mistakes as well as potential gain structure problems). As said earlier using a digital post ADC volume control is a poor idea and analog controls when the card is inaccessible makes little sense. Also the inputs are not mike level so you would need a mixer anyway.
Hi,
I agree with Demian, less control is better !
I don not have any drivers issu with the Juli@, work very well.
Another very in my usse, is that digital input of the card support 24bits/192kHz stream,
very few souond card support this (especially at this price!).
Frex
I agree with Demian, less control is better !
I don not have any drivers issu with the Juli@, work very well.
Another very in my usse, is that digital input of the card support 24bits/192kHz stream,
very few souond card support this (especially at this price!).
Frex
Thx for the comments, I've found a juli@ for 45€, I'll go for it. Maybe a q400 is in my future though, it's very tempting.
Do you have detailed specs specifically for the recording and playback sections? I can't find a manual or spec sheet online, and your link only shows the SNR.
I'm thinking of purchasing a QA400. Have you had any reliability issue's with it?
Thanks,
Dave.
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