Ribbon Tweeter - capacitor?

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#23
DrDyna said:
Speaker Workshop is probably the best free one, but it's got a bit of a learning curve to it.

If I've read this right, your intention is just to add a little sparkle to a full range driver?
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yes i guess. i can hear all frequencies up to 20khz very clearly, the driver i have runs out of useful highend about 10khz, but starts to drop DB's at about 8khz, 9khz is when it would hit the same SPL as the tweeter. the high end is pretty much inaudible by 10khz. this means high hats, bite to snares and the resonances from string instruments or the gentle breathiness to vocals etc are lost and its not something that i can get used to. i picked up the tweeters to return this aspect to my music, but i'm very happy with the low-middle-high midrange area that the driver produces quite well. once in a box the low end should be sufficient for my music tastes, if not i have access to a sub if i want extra grunt for electronic music or films. its just the uppers that i'm not happy with
 
#24
gafhenderson said:
yes i guess. i can hear all frequencies up to 20khz very clearly, the driver i have runs out of useful highend about 10khz, but starts to drop DB's at about 8khz, 9khz is when it would hit the same SPL as the tweeter. the high end is pretty much inaudible by 10khz. this means high hats, bite to snares and the resonances from string instruments or the gentle breathiness to vocals etc are lost and its not something that i can get used to. i picked up the tweeters to return this aspect to my music, but i'm very happy with the low-middle-high midrange area that the driver produces quite well. once in a box the low end should be sufficient for my music tastes, if not i have access to a sub if i want extra grunt for electronic music or films. its just the uppers that i'm not happy with
Click to expand...

You're using the NeoCD 3, right? What's the full range driver you're using?
 
#25
Ribbons 101 idiots version with images

gafhenderson said:
so the capacitor is used for crossover-less operation of a ribbon tweeter?
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1. YOU HAVE A PASSIVE SYSTEM. Yes?
2. You need a crossover. Yes? There's no crossover less operation of a ribbon tweeter... (generally speaking as was already mentioned on #16 relating inductor vs. cap)

gafhenderson said:
so if i'm gently 'rolling in' the super tweeter in the 7-9khz with a high order crossover...
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Ok. The mentioned caps are an integral part of the crossover, (first order w. one cap) second or third order. You always need one or more caps in this case.

gafhenderson said:
if i'm getting completely the wrong end of this can someone link me to an idiots version of what you're explaining, or provide a very labelled diagram?

thanks for your help 🙂
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Of course, plenty of idiots version with images, that's what you should read. And other DIY's will help you w. that here, from now on.
I would start with Ribbons 101 kind of. Please post your questions for feedback as much as you want.

Decca London Ribbon Tweeter
True ribbons, magnetic planars, and high end magnetic planars
Fostex FE126E + Fountek NeoCD3 @Troels Gravesen
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
Linkwitz-Riley Crossovers: A Primer
How to Build a Speaker With Crossovers | eHow.com
Crossover Table Index
 
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#27
gafhenderson said:
big fane driver (12-200lt), similar to the eminence beta 12lta. its coupled with a phase plug to smooth out the high end, and at some point will be EnABL'd to see if that helps with breakup too.

using the horn version of the neoCD 3.
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I'm not sure if 9khz is safely high enough to use a single capacitor, but it might be.

If it was mine, I'd go a little steeper than that, with a capacitor in series and a coil in parallel. A capacitor around 1.5 uF and a coil about 0.3mH looks like it'd do what you're wanting.

Imho, with that tweeter, you could probably build a much, much better sounding speaker if you were to do something like this:

Monitor W15NeoSEAS W15CY001 +
 
#30
DrDyna said:
I'm not sure if 9khz is safely high enough to use a single capacitor, but it might be.

If it was mine, I'd go a little steeper than that, with a capacitor in series and a coil in parallel. A capacitor around 1.5 uF and a coil about 0.3mH looks like it'd do what you're wanting.

Imho, with that tweeter, you could probably build a much, much better sounding speaker if you were to do something like this:

Monitor W15NeoSEAS W15CY001 +
Click to expand...

not buying anything else, what i have is my guinea pig set up which i'm experimenting and learning with with a view to then investing real money into a final product once i've learnt to craft a system to my requirements.

also those drivers will not fill the volume of space i'm requiring them to. large open plan barn conversion with full roof height ceiling in the listening space. tehy're also only 85db efficiency meaning i'll need an even bigger amp to get the volume i'd need VS the small T-amp i have now driving the fanes @97db/watt

start with single drivers or simple 2 ways, adjust till i get something that works, then upgrade parts where needed with more exotic models etc.
 
#31
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#32
fane driver looks nice
just remember, with such a system, no bass expected, or very little
and its made even worse by having drivers with rising response

if you crross the fane much lower, and use a small full range instead of a ribbon, then it might have a chance
anyway, I expect a ribbon will be a very poor match to such big fullrange

your project is a wash from the very beginning
dont do it
not worth the money, or effort
 
#34
tinitus said:
fane driver looks nice
just remember, with such a system, no bass expected, or very little
and its made even worse by having drivers with rising response

if you crross the fane much lower, and use a small full range instead of a ribbon, then it might have a chance
anyway, I expect a ribbon will be a very poor match to such big fullrange

your project is a wash from the very beginning
dont do it
not worth the money, or effort
Click to expand...

i'm playing with what i have. i have a big T-TQWT subwoofer that can be turned on if bass is needed, but i'm not a big bass head. i've had enough of the floor standers i have now which have plenty of bass and loads of treble, just forgot about the midrange, which is the part i actually want to hear the most.

i wanted the fostex FT17H which seems to be recommended but i couldn't get them cheap and i refuse to pay £40 each for something i'll probably break. everything i've acquired so far has been fairly cheap stuff in sales and from ebay. the cost of a single seas unit previously mentioned as a 2way design far outweigh the financial outlay i have put forward so far and wouldn't give me close to what i need.

hornresp plot for sub @2.83v using some crappy car subs i picked up for very cheap. i honestly can't see me needing much more low end than that.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
 
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#36
tinitus said:
fane driver looks nice
just remember, with such a system, no bass expected, or very little
and its made even worse by having drivers with rising response

if you crross the fane much lower, and use a small full range instead of a ribbon, then it might have a chance
anyway, I expect a ribbon will be a very poor match to such big fullrange

your project is a wash from the very beginning
dont do it
not worth the money, or effort
Click to expand...
There's no need for perfection, when it's enough to pleasure the owner/hear.😀 Please stay around for your precious input...🙂
@gafhenderson,
Also testing the woofer with a small coil (1.0mH or less?) or first order type might be a good idea (also as BSC).
And after reading the above links, I gave you, you can proceed to page 43/44 (first order vs. pseudo-first-order) of "(Pi) π Speaker Crossover Document analysis of circuits used in waveguide and constant directivity loudspeakers"
at Pi Speakers http://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html
 
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#37
Warning, lots of personal opinion follows.

I'm going to have to agree with Tinitus here. The NeoCD tweeter is a delicate little ribbon that's designed to play very well in small monitors at a reasonable power level. Think of them as a tweeter that would go well here:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


And, your Fane PA driver that's designed for the "Would the owner of a blue SUV that's parked in the fire lane please return to your vehicle" speaker. Think of them as a driver that would go well here:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.



A much more reasonable woofer to pair with the NeoCD would be some of the ones suggested. A much more reasonable tweeter to use with your Fane woofer would be something like this:

Eminence APT-150 Super Tweeter with 100° x 50° Horn 290-534

By all means, try what you've got using the crossover components suggested, but be aware that this is probably going to be a terrible combination.
 
#38
DrDyna said:
Warning, lots of personal opinion follows.

I'm going to have to agree with Tinitus here. The NeoCD tweeter is a delicate little ribbon that's designed to play very well in small monitors at a reasonable power level. Think of them as a tweeter that would go well here:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


And, your Fane PA driver that's designed for the "Would the owner of a blue SUV that's parked in the fire lane please return to your vehicle" speaker. Think of them as a driver that would go well here:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.



A much more reasonable woofer to pair with the NeoCD would be some of the ones suggested. A much more reasonable tweeter to use with your Fane woofer would be something like this:

Eminence APT-150 Super Tweeter with 100° x 50° Horn 290-534

By all means, try what you've got using the crossover components suggested, but be aware that this is probably going to be a terrible combination.
Click to expand...

i had looked at the big PA tweeters and the horn loaded peizo things. i do understand that my tweeter is not designed to compete in the kind of spaces that my Fane driver is, at the same time i don't want nor desire the same kind of harsh overpowering upper ends as i have now. i don't typically have huge amounts of treble which is what annoys me about my 3way floor standers. i want midrange clarity not overpowering bass and high end which is why i tried to go fullrange as these are typically fabled for having very forward midrange. the fane (when experimentally used in open baffle does do this quite well and fills the space without needing huge volume) but lacks that delicate accent to things that the tweeter will hopefully add. doesn't need to be incredibly loud or forward, just that gentle hint to finish the sound off.

in the event it doesn't work, i should be able to either recoup most the money i spent on them through resale or save them for something else smaller in application and pick up a monster horn tweeter to match with the fanes.

i was intending to bi-amp, so the tweeter has its only little amp that doesn't exceed its 10watt max so this should protect it?
 
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#39
Yeah, just be sure to get ...at the very least, a 1.5 uF cap in series with it, even better also drop a 0.3-ish coil in parallel to it, after the capacitor. Bi amping is good if you're able to turn the level on the amp driving the Fane's down a little, I'm pretty sure the Fane is quite a bit more sensitive.
 
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