I also worried enough about power in this system. But then it occurred to me that I've worked and sat thru many 100s of gigs that were done with a powered speaker on a stick, sometimes two speakers. Even luaus outside over a wide area with no more than two Mackie powered speakers on stands. Certainly we've all sat in a bar-restaurant where there is "live music" meaning one dude with a keyboard and some tracks, using a JBL Eon or similar. He can make it hard to talk over the music.
Of course modern powered PA speakers have (or claim to have) powerful amplifiers built in. But I can't remember ever running them near maximum power, not at all. Still I really have no idea how much average or peak power was needed for gigs like that. Interesting design parameter. If you aren't trying to do Rock concert levels, fairly modest gear can cover it. All other acoustic concerns remain the same, of course.
Of course modern powered PA speakers have (or claim to have) powerful amplifiers built in. But I can't remember ever running them near maximum power, not at all. Still I really have no idea how much average or peak power was needed for gigs like that. Interesting design parameter. If you aren't trying to do Rock concert levels, fairly modest gear can cover it. All other acoustic concerns remain the same, of course.
on the instance with the glass walls I mentioned before, I installed a inexpensive Behringer X Air XR18 between source and power amplifier. The notch filters are effective to address low frequency resonances. It does take care of microphone inputs (with limiters and compressors), and general sound enhancements when needed. Most eye-catching DSP features and "enhancements" are best left disabled - they aren't meant for Hi-Fi anyway and are fit to the low price of this mixer - but the equalizer and compressor/limiter are ok for the purpose, and it is possible to quickly recall the presets from a mobile app.
Hi James, to add more context. I actually approached the restaurant partners to pitch an actual dedicated 'listening bar' concept - similar to the Jazz Kissa iterations shared above. They proposed to apply the principles of the concept in a much 'simpler' version of the original idea to their current restaurant already in construction.
That's why some floor plans and interior architectural drawings wouldn't make sense for the Soundsystem in mind, or at least initially as others might agree. If it were in my hands the whole design and utilization of the space would be different. So I feel where you and others are coming from. And it's sometimes frustrating having to explain and convince the team of owners involved.
You are correct sir, the blue line is in fact glass. I'm now having second thoughts on this project as mentioned in my reply above the project is an alternative 'bastardized' version to a dream project that would've included a lot of thought and detail in approaching it. The project at hand has an unrealistic opening date set for next month based on what I've been told by the owners. It just doesn't feel realistic and I feel they're in it as others have shared for the 'cool' gimmick aspect than the actual listening experience. Jameshillj really made me ruminate how much of an acoustic hell hole it would be with that live cooking area haha. For me, it's a passion project but now I'm having second thoughts as I don't feel it's right that I am more invested in this side of the concept than the actual owners of the space. 3AM sound tests the day before do seem like something on the cards, I hope not.
Still pending a proposal to my inquiry from the Klipsch people - I've been told they're working on something.
I feel in the end I'd just recommend the owners to opt for a commercial distributed audio system as you and others have hinted at.
I appreciate the feedback - every day the task does seem more arduous. Maybe sometime in the future, I can re-approach the original concept as my own personal project invested I'd be invested versus acting as an organizing acquaintance and maybe get components from altec lansing with SET tubes as you might've suggested. Would be a shame to go through all this process I find myself in to then have a system sounding like Hell.
More or less in order
* just checked remaining Jazz Kisa, which apparently dwindled from 200 rooms full time to 20 or less, a few nights a week:
That alone tells it all.
In my book, when somebody says "oh, it´s not SO loud" they actually mean quite Loud 😉
And I guess those McIntosh amps are 40W per channel or higher.
and so on and on and on.
High pressure opening dates are not good to your blood pressure or heartburn, believe me.
Been there, done that, including still soldering on stage at Luna Park, Buenos Aires´ Madison Square Garden, while doors were being opened and 12000/14000 people were flooding in for a major act.
Or wiring speaker columns while hanging from a trapeze artist´s wire and harness high in the sky after Moscow Circus had already started their Argentine Tour.
I recognize yours is a labor of love, and congratulate you on it, but it´s 1.000.000 times better to do it on your own.
In fact, if t all possible, open one yourself , or maybe with one or at most two partners who share same ideas or taste.
A small one (which is actually GOOD, because it provides for intimacy), say 8 to 12 chairs, tops.
And it´s much better a 12 seat chock full bar, than 20 customers in a 60 seat one which feels cold and empty.
When/if it becomes "too small", then you move up.
If you look at the design as an acoustical problem rather than a hifi project, you'll perhaps approach it from a different direction - think of it as a school room problem, for example instead of home hifi. Or hotel entrance/checkin halls, etc
The 'buzzwords' here are Clarity, Intelligibility, Natural, Spill, Area Masking, Rt30, etc and so on - hifi system design doesn't have much relevance to PA system design as the requirements are so different - also, you might want to add karaoke, and other mobile mike controls too for kids birthday parties, etc (ie. elevated sound levels) - you might look towards companies that provide system/room designs for ideas and hire/function room companies as they've probably "seen/done it all"
For example, if you were to use multiple ceiling speakers with distributed subwoofers, you could employ your "Clean, Clear, Intelligible, Flexible, Natural, etc requirements with multiple channel distribution and obtain any "spill reduction patches" and "localized damping" near the bar area - just off the cuff discussion points but quite relevant to your small indoor restaurant area - I think companies like Rane build gear that offers this type of flexibility and multichannel programming.
One good thing about you wanting to privide high quality sound in this situation is that many people in pro-audio have actually forgotten what 'good sound' to a listener actually is - they use specifications for everything and often forget to do any listening at all - very common problem and something you need to be aware of if/when you talk to pro-audio people.
Surprisingly, this type of system design is not so easy to tackle as it's multi-purpose, not particularly expensive and so many vendors of equipment and design just follow a design program that might work for some situations but fail miserably at others - this often requires a company tech to set it up at a further cost/consultancy fee and so on - you can do better than this once you've 'thought out' all the different situations you want to use the space for - they have fancy words for this but it's basically figuring out your job requirements first, looking at the limitations your room produces then see about asking for help - a step by step process.
I like the idea of multiple ceiling speakers as they're relatively cheap, very high quality with reduced bass response, can be 'no-wire' or 'minimum wiring' installation (self powered for example) small size as limited bass response (with distributed subwoofers, etc) and so on - this reduces room acoustical and large window reflections/bounce and standing wave problems and hence the need for freq response control damping and so forth and the dsp electronics today are well made to handle these sort of situations.
Some random thoughts - the layout design shows 38 seating position, bar area with no standing, 4 wall seats next to ablution/kitchen area - thus, one set of sound solutions - maybe early sitting for restaurant, later for club bar. Possible business lunches/meeting and higher intelligibility ...
Change up for a kids party of 60+ (maybe 'screaming') kids (and parents), no centre tables but wall cushions, extra toilets requirements, indoor clothing racks (cold weather periods, yes?) and very different sound requirements with maybe roaming clown entertainer, etc. Maybe teens after-sports team lunch with different music, louder background, etc
Karaoke night - changing number of people, much larger bar area hence quieter sound (maybe masking transmitters) reduced lighting, a more 'intimate' sound, higher level of acoustical damping for conversations, and so on.
Maybe not hifi but there's no reason why you can't create an area of good sound under different circumstances - that's your challenge ...
.., long post, sorry - I talk too much too!
The 'buzzwords' here are Clarity, Intelligibility, Natural, Spill, Area Masking, Rt30, etc and so on - hifi system design doesn't have much relevance to PA system design as the requirements are so different - also, you might want to add karaoke, and other mobile mike controls too for kids birthday parties, etc (ie. elevated sound levels) - you might look towards companies that provide system/room designs for ideas and hire/function room companies as they've probably "seen/done it all"
For example, if you were to use multiple ceiling speakers with distributed subwoofers, you could employ your "Clean, Clear, Intelligible, Flexible, Natural, etc requirements with multiple channel distribution and obtain any "spill reduction patches" and "localized damping" near the bar area - just off the cuff discussion points but quite relevant to your small indoor restaurant area - I think companies like Rane build gear that offers this type of flexibility and multichannel programming.
One good thing about you wanting to privide high quality sound in this situation is that many people in pro-audio have actually forgotten what 'good sound' to a listener actually is - they use specifications for everything and often forget to do any listening at all - very common problem and something you need to be aware of if/when you talk to pro-audio people.
Surprisingly, this type of system design is not so easy to tackle as it's multi-purpose, not particularly expensive and so many vendors of equipment and design just follow a design program that might work for some situations but fail miserably at others - this often requires a company tech to set it up at a further cost/consultancy fee and so on - you can do better than this once you've 'thought out' all the different situations you want to use the space for - they have fancy words for this but it's basically figuring out your job requirements first, looking at the limitations your room produces then see about asking for help - a step by step process.
I like the idea of multiple ceiling speakers as they're relatively cheap, very high quality with reduced bass response, can be 'no-wire' or 'minimum wiring' installation (self powered for example) small size as limited bass response (with distributed subwoofers, etc) and so on - this reduces room acoustical and large window reflections/bounce and standing wave problems and hence the need for freq response control damping and so forth and the dsp electronics today are well made to handle these sort of situations.
Some random thoughts - the layout design shows 38 seating position, bar area with no standing, 4 wall seats next to ablution/kitchen area - thus, one set of sound solutions - maybe early sitting for restaurant, later for club bar. Possible business lunches/meeting and higher intelligibility ...
Change up for a kids party of 60+ (maybe 'screaming') kids (and parents), no centre tables but wall cushions, extra toilets requirements, indoor clothing racks (cold weather periods, yes?) and very different sound requirements with maybe roaming clown entertainer, etc. Maybe teens after-sports team lunch with different music, louder background, etc
Karaoke night - changing number of people, much larger bar area hence quieter sound (maybe masking transmitters) reduced lighting, a more 'intimate' sound, higher level of acoustical damping for conversations, and so on.
Maybe not hifi but there's no reason why you can't create an area of good sound under different circumstances - that's your challenge ...
.., long post, sorry - I talk too much too!