I'm toying with a project. I want to install a music sound system in a small restaurant (80m2). However, most restaurant music is played at a volume where it has no dynamic range (loudness).
My initial thoughts are to use 6 satellite speakers and two small sub-woofers. The target is to produce a nominal 75dB @ 50 to 100Hz, 55dB @ 100Hz- 5Khz, 65dB above that.
What size subs would you recommend?
My initial thoughts are to use 6 satellite speakers and two small sub-woofers. The target is to produce a nominal 75dB @ 50 to 100Hz, 55dB @ 100Hz- 5Khz, 65dB above that.
What size subs would you recommend?
I am thinking there are two things you don't want to overdo in a restaurant, one is early reflections because they make a person stressed and uncomfortable.. and the other is low bass because this unsettles the abdomen.
The easiest way might be to use good full-range drivers.
The easiest way might be to use good full-range drivers.
I would also use fullrange drivers, some that fit small sealed cabinets and hang them high against the ceiling. You don't need a deep bass, you need mainly midrange and a bit treble to have definition. No subs needed in a restaurant as subbass is not wanted there for background music. It disturbs the peace while eating your meal.
Something like a Mark Audio 10.3 or similar in a sealed cabinet would be good for that. It's probally not the only way to do it, but that is what i build for a restaurant of a friend in the south of Belgium. There they mainly play classical music trough it on low level (70-75dB) and use 8 of them in a space of 200m². The owner is vey happy with them i have to say. I build 12L sealed cabinets for them and so they go on their own to about 60Hz in room, which is more than aquedate for this use. He uses a 4 channel Rotel amp to drive them.
Something like a Mark Audio 10.3 or similar in a sealed cabinet would be good for that. It's probally not the only way to do it, but that is what i build for a restaurant of a friend in the south of Belgium. There they mainly play classical music trough it on low level (70-75dB) and use 8 of them in a space of 200m². The owner is vey happy with them i have to say. I build 12L sealed cabinets for them and so they go on their own to about 60Hz in room, which is more than aquedate for this use. He uses a 4 channel Rotel amp to drive them.
Multiple hanging full range drivers in pods distributed over the seating area, preferably over each table. Having the audio come from overhead makes it easier to separate from speech, as does pulling out roughly 8-10 dB of 2-5 k range, so people can understand each other better when talking. Compression isn't really needed with modern streamed music, as its already mastered with so much of it.
In the full range theme why not go for multiple DML panels and small subs ( not sure if they'll be even needed in a restaurant)?
You could even have some art on them. Could make some guests wondering from where music is coming in case of boring diner.
Profiguy, your description really fit the in ceiling Tannoy offer.
You could even have some art on them. Could make some guests wondering from where music is coming in case of boring diner.
Profiguy, your description really fit the in ceiling Tannoy offer.
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Same here.
You want an uniform sound field, so in principle "all speakers should be the same"
It´s not a disco, at restaurants people´s main features are food (duh!), ambiance (or eating out would not be a special event) and talking to each other; good music is nice of course, but can´t overwhelm any of the primary factors.
That said, given that low frequencies are quite non directional, you might add a couple discreet subwoofers but not search for full range flat frequency or anything "technically" perfect, I would setup the main full range system first and then slowly rise subwoofer output until it´s "perceived", as mentioned above it should never become annoying or obnoxious.
Othyers maydiffer, of course.
Just remember very low frequencies perception is different from "normal range".
You want an uniform sound field, so in principle "all speakers should be the same"
It´s not a disco, at restaurants people´s main features are food (duh!), ambiance (or eating out would not be a special event) and talking to each other; good music is nice of course, but can´t overwhelm any of the primary factors.
That said, given that low frequencies are quite non directional, you might add a couple discreet subwoofers but not search for full range flat frequency or anything "technically" perfect, I would setup the main full range system first and then slowly rise subwoofer output until it´s "perceived", as mentioned above it should never become annoying or obnoxious.
Othyers maydiffer, of course.
Just remember very low frequencies perception is different from "normal range".
Ouch!
That said i've been in bar where (circa 95) Acoustimass was used and it was ok for most drunk people sitting in there. 😉
That said i've been in bar where (circa 95) Acoustimass was used and it was ok for most drunk people sitting in there. 😉
Surtsey,
Six 5 inch speakers could be equalized to your nominal target "loudness contour", and easily exceed 75dB at 50 Hz.
The "size" of the subs could then be infinitely small, and the distribution of musical dynamic range more uniform to the patrons in the small restaurant.
That said, when conversational speech must compete with music at 55dB, it will soon turn to raised voices or shouting, and levels escalate further as patrons then compete with each other.
"Background music" requires careful human attention and adjustment to ambient noise levels, or an automated approach to prevent further noise escalation.
Art
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I did a system with a bunch of Tang Band W4-1337SDF Ti cone full ranges in the double Ikea salad bowl enclosures hangjng over all the tables in a small cafe. I used a Niles speaker switcher with a parasound amp, driven by a digital mixer/processor. The speakers are HP filtered at 80 hz and limited by the processor, The owner plays his streaming app through it and occasionally hosts acoustic guitarists or other soloists performing there, in which case they run the sound through the whole distributed system. The speakers are all time delayed so the sound coincides with the performer's monitor spillover. There are two small downfiring 12" subs powered by ICE-power plate amps hidden in the corners of the room, disguised as tables that are only used for live performances. The whole system works very well for the intended applications.
Yes, the loudness curve is extremely critical to get right, so it doesn't interfere with speech intelligibility or distracts from the dining experience in general.
I've done alot of research regarding loudness curves over the years. The standard accepted Fletcher Munson curve is pretty good but has some flaws at lower listening levels. I found that some dynamic EQ is necessary to get it right since the curve does fluctuate quite a bit in balance across the whole frequency range, more so than the curve depicts.
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Art,
How would an automated system being implemented?
Monitoring SPL real time which drive sidechain of a limiter/compressor?
How would an automated system being implemented?
Monitoring SPL real time which drive sidechain of a limiter/compressor?
To all those who mentioned "full range" . . . you've missed the point. The system needs to be 'louder' outside human vocal frequencies.
If I offer a classical example: "In the Hall of the Mountain King." On my system, even at low volumes, the double-bass, the bottom of the Oboe and other bass comes through the floor - I'm trying to replicate this. Any system that makes Edvard Grieg sound like piped elevator music is blasphemous.
The track is a good test. Whilst I need to feel that warm bass, the crescendo should not become intrusive.
Check it out on you system and get back to me.
Grieg - In the Hall of the Mountain King, Jacek Głogowski - a debut as a conductor for his birthday, - YouTube
If I offer a classical example: "In the Hall of the Mountain King." On my system, even at low volumes, the double-bass, the bottom of the Oboe and other bass comes through the floor - I'm trying to replicate this. Any system that makes Edvard Grieg sound like piped elevator music is blasphemous.
The track is a good test. Whilst I need to feel that warm bass, the crescendo should not become intrusive.
Check it out on you system and get back to me.
Grieg - In the Hall of the Mountain King, Jacek Głogowski - a debut as a conductor for his birthday, - YouTube
That would be a basic starting point, though in practice separating the "noise" that drives level and "loudness contour" dynamic processing (EQ/limiting) would require venue (and speaker) specific design and tuning.
Surtsey has missed the point that separate "subwoofers" are not required to adjust levels to be "louder" below 100Hz, or any hinge point desired. One simply has to adjust the system to the same transfer function that replicates the "feel" (frequency response) wanted.
If bass "comes through the floor", it's source is either in the basement, or the floor is resonating 😉
Art
What kind of restaurant? Coffee and sandwiches during the day or wine and steaks in the evening? Wine will add 10db of bg noise. How many people? There wideband absorbers and can make a lot of noise.
When we did the AV install here
JOEY Bentall One – Downtown Vancouver - Klondike Contracting
we installed a pair of these
Model D - Steinway Lyngdorf - The World's finest audio systems
Plus speakers and subs in the ceiling. It was not really overkill. The first company Christmas party they hosted hit the limiters.
When we did the AV install here
JOEY Bentall One – Downtown Vancouver - Klondike Contracting
we installed a pair of these
Model D - Steinway Lyngdorf - The World's finest audio systems
Plus speakers and subs in the ceiling. It was not really overkill. The first company Christmas party they hosted hit the limiters.
We also did a small lunch place that the owner played the music loud enough to warrant ear plugs. And it was busy. Go figure.
The provision of two subwoofers reduces the maximum distance between cover and source providing a more universal volume level. My experience leads me to always consider timing. If you've ever DJ'd you'll realise how slow sound is. About five metres is the maximum distance between my ear and the source where I can still mix - and that takes some getting used to.
Low frequencies travel through pretty much anything. Again, from nightclub experience . . . despite standing on concrete the vibrations coming through your feet (from main output) are seriously out of synch with headphone or monitor output.
In response to some other questions. A long time ago I owned a loud and busy town centre bar. My brother designed and installed software which would adjust output in relation to ambient noise. 95% of the time it was brilliant: the busier the bar got, the louder the music. However, if there was a fight or an altercation the system was complete disaster. Like any piano player in a proverbial western fight scene . . . the system just kept playing. With every smashed window or destroyed piece of furniture the system cranked up the volume - nothing to see here.
Maybe we have been misguided about the intended use if you anticipe some octagon's fight with a dj to ambience the show to happen during the diner. 😀
Could you be more specific about what will be place dedicated to?
I agree delay between cues and main system to be disturbing when mixing. It depend from style played however, some being more touchy than others about sync.
I thoughts i was the last dinosaur on earth still playing with analog TT though: the digital players used by any dj i've seen recently make all this irrelevant as they sync anything at the touch of a button anyway...
Could you be more specific about what will be place dedicated to?
I agree delay between cues and main system to be disturbing when mixing. It depend from style played however, some being more touchy than others about sync.
I thoughts i was the last dinosaur on earth still playing with analog TT though: the digital players used by any dj i've seen recently make all this irrelevant as they sync anything at the touch of a button anyway...
IM-PRES-SIVE!!! 😱What kind of restaurant? Coffee and sandwiches during the day or wine and steaks in the evening? Wine will add 10db of bg noise. How many people? There wideband absorbers and can make a lot of noise.
When we did the AV install here we installed a pair of these
Plus speakers and subs in the ceiling. It was not really overkill. The first company Christmas party they hosted hit the limiters.
Congratulations!!!
Also loved the ambience and Architectural design, a real classy place.
Only found the high contrast splotched marble bar very distracting, same with the large "neon" sign in the center, but hey, that´s me.
Just curious about the apparent "soundbars" (if they are that), surrounding every outside table.
As of my comments elsewhere, about CNC machining stuff madness 😉, I rest my case 😎
😱
😀
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