Resistor Sound Quality?

[marce]

Conventional flat earth engineering is very challenged to explain all that we hear in audio. This is not surprising since the music is conveyed by a delicate AC signal which generates a magnetic field. So, I say continue with the Physics twaddle. It appears to be the only functional framework for what our ears hear outside the doctrinaire of EE.

Automotive temp range for electronics -40; +125
Mill/aerospace -55; +125
Plenty of sensitive analogue designs in these including audio...everything tested over the full temp range (and at these extremes the value, tolerance, changes due to temp have to be factored in for resistors) tested for vibration and many other factors...
Never hear talk of quantum effects of components in these fields, just the usual know features of resistors, a very useful calculation is Ohms law🙂

What is conventional flat earth engineering? As to "what we hear in Audio" ask yourself do you hear it or do you perceive it is it a figment of your imagination, only proper experiments and testing would prove that, or conventional flat earth engineering.

 

[meles2]

Flat earth is a loaded term

Automotive temp range for electronics -40; +125
Mill/aerospace -55; +125
Plenty of sensitive analogue designs in these including audio...everything tested over the full temp range (and at these extremes the value, tolerance, changes due to temp have to be factored in for resistors) tested for vibration and many other factors...
Never hear talk of quantum effects of components in these fields, just the usual know features of resistors, a very useful calculation is Ohms law🙂

What is conventional flat earth engineering? As to "what we hear in Audio" ask yourself do you hear it or do you perceive it is it a figment of your imagination, only proper experiments and testing would prove that, or conventional flat earth engineering.

Well perhaps this phrase is a bit insulting and so I deserve the comment that anything I hear with my ears is a figment of my imagination. Flat earth isn't far from the mark in that it implies that all of the conventions and calculations of engineering do fail to describe what is heard. I will submit the previous example of the Placette Remote Volume Control. A huge change in sound (far from subtle changes that blind a/b testing might portray as figments of the imaginatin), yet the complete lack of any flat earth explanation for the sound leads us off the edge of the world into la la land.

Any attempts to quantify and study what we are hearing are extremely valid, especially solid flat earth engineering. Hopefully, going forward I will provoke some resistor specific comments rather than take this thread further down the road of audiofool versus engineer. Yes, I am and audiofool, but one who tries to base changes based on some sort of principled framework. I am sorry, but THD, S/N, dynamic range, wow and flutter, etc. don't seem to describe sound all that well. I hate to say it, but verbal descriptions of the figments of our imagination seem far more reliable resources when assembling a system. I love Physics twaddle and solid flat earth engineering too, as snake oil does abound, or at least we want the best snake oil we can get for the money.

My experience til this point has been that resistors make small changes in sound, but my perspective has been changed. Above was mention of the usual features of resistors, what might these be and what might some unusual features be? Is it feasible to measure the inductance of components for the typical DIY hobbyist?

 

[marce]

You can only trust what you perceive if you back it up with hard empirical data.

 

[SY]

...so I deserve the comment that anything I hear with my ears is a figment of my imagination.

But of course, no-one ever said that. There are things that are demonstrably audible and to which human ears are very sensitive. If those things are sorted and sonic differences are claimed, one needs to validate that those sonic differences are real or an artifact using ears-only testing. That, of course, is anathema to the market segment of "cottage industry" selling magic in exactly the same way that true double-blind studies are carefully avoided in the huge quack medicine industry. It is not terribly difficult to run real ears-only experiments, but that will not make great fodder for audiophile conversations!

If initial instrument testing shows things like frequency response differences or excess distortion, and hence claims of sonic differences are not remarkable, these are not from any magic, but basic defects or engineering errors (common in the high end audio market segment) and easily fixed. A good potentiometer will track well from channel to channel and be reliable- past that, other claims of sonic differences are down to circuit problems (like wiper current) or non-auditory reasons.

 

[DF96]

Yep And this explains that a pair of resistors will never sound the same if serial or parallel connected for the same resultant value

Sorry, was I the only one who assumed that coresta was joking when he said this? It didn't occur to me that someone might actually believe this.

 

[DF96]

Conventional flat earth engineering is very challenged to explain all that we hear in audio. This is not surprising since the music is conveyed by a delicate AC signal which generates a magnetic field.

As we live on a roughly spherical world, why would anyone consider "flat earth engineering" to be "conventional"? No, conventional engineering (based on facts like a non-flat earth) explains almost all we heard in audio. A well-engineered music signal is not that delicate, and usually generates little magnetic field - but anyway, what is the problem with magnetic fields?

This thread seems to be spinning off into another dimension, where facts are whatever someone chooses to believe based on what they read somewhere on a website or in an audio magazine.

I am sorry, but THD, S/N, dynamic range, wow and flutter, etc. don't seem to describe sound all that well.

Just try degrading any of them sufficiently and you will soon find they affect the sound. Once good enough any further improvements don't make much difference to the sound, but this is the definition of 'good enough'.

 

[cbdb]

Temp and voltage coefficients and thermal voltages at disimaler metal junctions. While these are real effects, they need to be put in perspective. Last one first. Adding a few micro volts dc to any resistors with dc bias will do nothing. And there are very few resistor that don't have a bias. (Even ones that aren't supposed to usually have an offset a lot more than a few micro volts).

Temp coefficients only matter when the resistor has large temp. variation while operating and this only hapens when the dynamic power in a resistor is approaching the bias power, and only if the total power is greater than 1/10 the resistor rating (that's a ballpark). Basically if the resistor is not warm there's no issue, and even if it is warm and stays the same temp. There is no issue. I have difficulty trying to come up with any resistors in a preamp that qualify, and very few in power amps. And even when you find a resistor that fits these criteria the effect is parts per million, and most likely inaudable.

Voltage coefficient is similar. It only matters if the ac voltage across a resistor is large. And again this only happens in a few resistors in a power amp, most importantly the feedback resistor. And again the effect is ppm and most likely inaudible.

Are there other resistor non linearities to discuss?

 

[kvholio]

Assuming they are properly implemented in a given circuit resistors are about the last part in the audio chain i would worry about.
When you open up your mind about the possibility that your mind is one of the elephants in the room, and it may be playing tricks on you even if you're not aware of it, chances are that you look at audio in a different, and hopefully refreshing way.

enjoy,

klaas

 

[john curl]

Resistors count, but they are only really apparent,(normally) over time as a 'signature'. Stick with Dale (brown) if you can. That is what we use to win awards. (Thanks, Ed Simon)

 

[AndrewT]

Sorry, was I the only one who assumed that coresta was joking when he said this? It didn't occur to me that someone might actually believe this.

I believed that in some situations that series could give different performance from parallel.
I had no reason to think he was joking.

 

[DF96]

The immediate context was post 520, which gave links to information on resistors. He said "never sound the same", which the linked information did not suggest. I can think of only one situation where series connection might help, so I would say "almost always sound the same".

 

[AndrewT]

Although we can "see" exaggeration in his claim, so much so that it becomes unbelievable, I still did not think he was joking.

 

[cbdb]

Not joking, just wrong.

 

[rastanearian]

too much talking not enough doing.

While building my own passive attenuator I experimented with many different resistors in both the series and shunt position. All resistors were matched to within .1 ohm of each other. At least I think they were, my old Wavetek multimeter isn't the last word on accuracy. However, since all resistors were measured with the same meter, it's good enough for me.
My experiment involved putting this contraption in the signal path and having my wife switch between the different resistors randomly while I, with eyes closed, listened for any difference worth hearing.
Not very scientific, you say? Well, it's true my wife did refuse to wear the lab coat and pocket protector, but when it comes to randomly switching she is an expert.
The result of this experiment was that I was unable to differentiate between resistors in the shunt position but the series position was much more sensitive to change. In the end I settled on common carbon film for the shunt and and precision bulk metal foil for the series position.

I have read many very good reasons why I should not have wasted my time on such a foolish endeavor as to hear resistors. That wasn't enough for me, I needed to try it for myself. To be honest, I didn't want to hear a difference. I really didn't want the complication it represents.
The same goes for capacitors. Dammit!! I don't want to hear a difference, but I do.

I am happy with my resistor decision and have yet to have an active pre-amp seriously challenge it's place in my system.

 

[SY]

There ya go, proof positive. 😀

 

[rastanearian]

Eggzactly. While not burning my fingers with a soldering iron I like swimming in quick sand.

 

[scott wurcer]

There ya go, proof positive. 😀

Did the wife have one foot in the kitchen? 😀

 

[coresta]

Although we can "see" exaggeration in his claim, so much so that it becomes unbelievable, I still did not think he was joking.

Thank U ... i'm not joking, this is true and there is an explanation 😉

 

[marce]

enlighten us please...

 

[john curl]

Good for you Rast... You did what most of us, even professionally, would do, to the extent that any OBVIOUS problem would be minimized. Your critics don't believe there are differences possible, so they will criticize you anyway.