Re: DIRECTIONS.
Yes, those theories I have read about before, although not
that particular article. However, as far as I could see there
was no mentioning of directedness in the article. In principle
the theory says that we get diodes at the metal-metal
boundaries. However, I see no reason whatsoever that these
diodes should all be directed the same way. To the contrary,
it seems most reasonable that they should statistically add up
to about the same number of diodes in each direction. We get
non-linearities, but there is no reason why these should differ
depending on the direction, at least not in a systematic way
s.t. we know beforehand which way the cable should be directed.
fdegrove said:
Yes, those theories I have read about before, although not
that particular article. However, as far as I could see there
was no mentioning of directedness in the article. In principle
the theory says that we get diodes at the metal-metal
boundaries. However, I see no reason whatsoever that these
diodes should all be directed the same way. To the contrary,
it seems most reasonable that they should statistically add up
to about the same number of diodes in each direction. We get
non-linearities, but there is no reason why these should differ
depending on the direction, at least not in a systematic way
s.t. we know beforehand which way the cable should be directed.
I think I have read that the diode junction is directed in one direction as the conductor is pulled in a specific direction and then the "crystals" are oriented in one way. As for proving directionality I post the same link as usual (and now that I read it again it says the same thing). At least somebody claims it can be measured:
http://www.jenving.se/direct.htm
http://www.jenving.se/direct.htm
UrSv said:
Interesting! I have heard something similar before, that it
should have something to do with the stretching, but it did
not discuss it on this level. OK, so let's accept the diodes do
get directed in the same way. Still, the signal is AC, so it seems
not guite to make sense anyway, does it? The non-linearities
might be different for positive and negative cycles, but so what?
We have both positive and negative cycles. Unless we go into
absolute phase issues, I still do not get it.
PUDDING.
Hi,
Seems some people need scientific proof before they get of their scientific *** and do some tests on their own?
Blimey...🙁
Hi,
Seems some people need scientific proof before they get of their scientific *** and do some tests on their own?
Blimey...🙁
Re: PUDDING.
No, but I make a distinction between empirical data and
theoretical explanations. I think we all benefit from understanding
why component A sounds different from component B. If
component A costs $1000 and sounds better than component
B which costs $10 some will be rich enough not to care about
why A sounds better than B. However, if we can find the reason
for the difference, maybe we can make component C which
costs $20 and sounds at leasst as good as compoonent A.
Component C would be affordable for most people, but of course,
some of those who could afford component A would be less
happy since they are no longer a select group of people who
are the only ones who can afford the better sound quality.
fdegrove said:
No, but I make a distinction between empirical data and
theoretical explanations. I think we all benefit from understanding
why component A sounds different from component B. If
component A costs $1000 and sounds better than component
B which costs $10 some will be rich enough not to care about
why A sounds better than B. However, if we can find the reason
for the difference, maybe we can make component C which
costs $20 and sounds at leasst as good as compoonent A.
Component C would be affordable for most people, but of course,
some of those who could afford component A would be less
happy since they are no longer a select group of people who
are the only ones who can afford the better sound quality.
If there are directional non-linearities metal films, seems like the annealing process should neutralize them. Wirewound and bulk foil, too. Some circuits and applications require such high linearity that if this 'diode effect' is real, it would be a problem and the resistor manufacturers would be aware of it.
I consider bulk foils to be the best type, but I can only afford metal film and selected wirewounds. Devices that cost several dollars apiece, like Black Gate capacitors, have to be used very
sparingly on my tiny budget.
Consequently, I have to choose from 'low end' metal films, usually Dale or whatever the local parts shop has got. I lucked into a batch of .27 ohm IRC wirewounds at a surplus shop that I used in place of the Mills I had planned to use for the emitter resistors in my Leach upgrades.
By the way, Dale resistors all have magnetic end caps in my experience; I do find various metal film types such as Mepco-Electra may be non-magnetic, but I can't always be a purist.
I consider bulk foils to be the best type, but I can only afford metal film and selected wirewounds. Devices that cost several dollars apiece, like Black Gate capacitors, have to be used very
sparingly on my tiny budget.
Consequently, I have to choose from 'low end' metal films, usually Dale or whatever the local parts shop has got. I lucked into a batch of .27 ohm IRC wirewounds at a surplus shop that I used in place of the Mills I had planned to use for the emitter resistors in my Leach upgrades.
By the way, Dale resistors all have magnetic end caps in my experience; I do find various metal film types such as Mepco-Electra may be non-magnetic, but I can't always be a purist.
SCIENCE.
Hi,
While I understand your reasoning,in audio, in order to advance the state of the art I often find myself to listen first and explain later.
If at all...an explanation can be found than we'll need to look at quantum physics.
Personnally,give me any piece of wire,let me burn it in for 24 hrs and it will be directive no matter what way I turn it before break in.
Lattices,the way the cable is drawn from the die are just wild guesses and if ever I find a document that explains it all from A to Z I'd be happy to present it.
In the mean time I notice one thing,the more we go up in the elements table the better the sound,i.e. Au sounds better than Ag,Cu and so on.
Alloys of siver and gold can sound amazingly good too...purity must have something to do with it,crystal lattice boundaries too.
Why? Dunno really...🙄
Hi,
While I understand your reasoning,in audio, in order to advance the state of the art I often find myself to listen first and explain later.
If at all...an explanation can be found than we'll need to look at quantum physics.
Personnally,give me any piece of wire,let me burn it in for 24 hrs and it will be directive no matter what way I turn it before break in.
Lattices,the way the cable is drawn from the die are just wild guesses and if ever I find a document that explains it all from A to Z I'd be happy to present it.
In the mean time I notice one thing,the more we go up in the elements table the better the sound,i.e. Au sounds better than Ag,Cu and so on.
Alloys of siver and gold can sound amazingly good too...purity must have something to do with it,crystal lattice boundaries too.
Why? Dunno really...🙄
Re: SCIENCE.
That's interesting. Most claims I have heard are that cables
are directed by the manufacturing process, not that you
can change it.
fdegrove said:
That's interesting. Most claims I have heard are that cables
are directed by the manufacturing process, not that you
can change it.
FUNNY.
Hi,
Yep...and that's one reason why one shouldn't care about it that much.
Mind you,the directivity is still there...I put the topic to my younger brother,a nuclear scientist, and all he muttered was something about conditioning...he lost me on that one though.😉
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Yep...and that's one reason why one shouldn't care about it that much.
Mind you,the directivity is still there...I put the topic to my younger brother,a nuclear scientist, and all he muttered was something about conditioning...he lost me on that one though.😉
Cheers,😉
Not Meant To Be Funny
I was told by a NP that the local fields 'lock' into the wire during forming operations.
Solder joints too.
Eric.
fdegrove said:
I was told by a NP that the local fields 'lock' into the wire during forming operations.
Solder joints too.
Eric.
By the way, Dale resistors all have magnetic end caps in my experience; I do find various metal film types such as Mepco-Electra may be non-magnetic, but I can't always be a purist. [/B][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------
Not Dale RN55 or 60C. They are fine, middle of the road!
--------------------------------------------------------
Not Dale RN55 or 60C. They are fine, middle of the road!
Physically, the TX2353 is less rugged than the S102K, but isn't fragile per se. Handle it with reasonable care, and you should have no problems. The resistive wafer may appear "nude", but it is coated with a transparent and fairly strong insulative coating, so you don't need to worry about inadverdent short-circuits. Lead pitch is the same as the S102K (3.81mm, I believe), so a TX2352 can replace an S102K with no layout changes.
-----------------------------------------
The S102K has silicon damping built in and I did wonder how this might affect sonics. There may also be a difference in microphony if the TXs are not damped.
If you are in Japan, the Alpha range is good and used in high end Japanese gear. They are also more reasonably priced even in UK.
-----------------------------------------
The S102K has silicon damping built in and I did wonder how this might affect sonics. There may also be a difference in microphony if the TXs are not damped.
If you are in Japan, the Alpha range is good and used in high end Japanese gear. They are also more reasonably priced even in UK.
I've tried Vishay resistive elements in a wide variety of packages. Plastic molded with silicon damping (S102K), dip-molded, metal can with silicon damping, can with oil, "nude" (TX2352), and a couple of other prototypes. Based on those experiments, I can say that applying physical damping to a resistor does alter the sound, and the choice is down to application and personal tastes. I myself prefer too little damping to too much damping.
Critical damping is the best, but doing this requires that you adjust the amount of damping applied to each resistor, and be willing to back off if you feel that the sound is becoming overdamped. And be prepared to readjust the damping if you change anything else in the amplifier, or for that matter, your entire system! 😱
>If you are in Japan, the Alpha range is good and used in high end Japanese gear.<
I am in Japan, and I do have experience with the Alpha range (also sold as "Wilbrecht"). Alpha's ability to fabricate resistors in values below 5 ohms (which for the most part, Vishay is unable to) is an invaluable resource. But where the same values are available from either company, sonically I would recommend the Vishays. Nonetheless, feel free to experiment, as our respective applications and preferences may differ.
regards, jonathan carr
Critical damping is the best, but doing this requires that you adjust the amount of damping applied to each resistor, and be willing to back off if you feel that the sound is becoming overdamped. And be prepared to readjust the damping if you change anything else in the amplifier, or for that matter, your entire system! 😱
>If you are in Japan, the Alpha range is good and used in high end Japanese gear.<
I am in Japan, and I do have experience with the Alpha range (also sold as "Wilbrecht"). Alpha's ability to fabricate resistors in values below 5 ohms (which for the most part, Vishay is unable to) is an invaluable resource. But where the same values are available from either company, sonically I would recommend the Vishays. Nonetheless, feel free to experiment, as our respective applications and preferences may differ.
regards, jonathan carr
I am in Japan, and I do have experience with the Alpha range (also sold as "Wilbrecht"). Alpha's ability to fabricate resistors in values below 5 ohms (which for the most part, Vishay is unable to) is an invaluable resource. But where the same values are available from either company, sonically I would recommend the Vishays. Nonetheless, feel free to experiment, as our respective applications and preferences may differ.
regards, jonathan carr [/B][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------
My experience is that there is no one brand of resistor that is always better. Depends on the rest of the circuit. Alphas have the advantage of being physically small when needed, and can be used in surface mount boards and rf (tuner) boards.
Generalising, the alphs seem to have a more rounded sound than Vishays.
😉
regards, jonathan carr [/B][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------
My experience is that there is no one brand of resistor that is always better. Depends on the rest of the circuit. Alphas have the advantage of being physically small when needed, and can be used in surface mount boards and rf (tuner) boards.
Generalising, the alphs seem to have a more rounded sound than Vishays.
😉
Re: FUNNY.
Hi,
Having drawn many wires by hand over the years, and understanding what happens to them physically, it should be no surprise that there is some directionality.
Basically, a shorter thicker piece of metal is stretched and formed by pulling it through ever decreasing tapered holes in a die, until it reaches the required diameter and surface finish etc. This reduction can be many thousandfold, but will always be a factor of tens to hundreds I guess.
As a result of this process, the crystalline structure will become 'distorted' (from how it started out) in a very directional manner.
If you imagine that a wire could somehow be marked across its section by slicing through it and marking this join which would be all in one plane (i.e.flat), if after the drawing process you checked this in section again, you will find that the earlier flat section has been changed to a cone shape, with the point of the cone facing the 'start' of the wire.
This physical distortion will be consistent all along the wire, so that any 'crystals' or whatever which were previously running at right-angles to the wire direction and from the centre of the wire outwards, will then be lying at an angle from the centre outwards, and facing backwards towards the trailing or end part of the wire.
It is harder to explain than I anticipated, but I have seen this effect quite clearly when the original 'billet' was made from two pieces of metal soldered together, end-to-end, before the wire was drawn, and the colour of the solder at the join revealed this effect.
What happens is that the circular hole in the die tends to 'hold back' the passage of the metal through the die as a result of friction, whereas, nearer the centre of the wire, this frictional resistance doesn't exist, so the centre core of the wire moves through the die more easily, and ends up 'leading' the metal at the outer circumference.
This has a marked affect on the surface finish as well, as can be seen under high magnification.
As far as I can see, no-one has answered the question about how one can identify the directionality of resistors, and whether (unlike caps, mostly!) there is any consistency compared with say the resistor's markings.
Does anyone know a reliable way of identifying the correct way, without having to try *every* one both ways, one at a time? (i.e. a test like the one I explained in another thread about 'sexing' capacitors.)
Regards,🙂
fdegrove said:
Hi,
Having drawn many wires by hand over the years, and understanding what happens to them physically, it should be no surprise that there is some directionality.
Basically, a shorter thicker piece of metal is stretched and formed by pulling it through ever decreasing tapered holes in a die, until it reaches the required diameter and surface finish etc. This reduction can be many thousandfold, but will always be a factor of tens to hundreds I guess.
As a result of this process, the crystalline structure will become 'distorted' (from how it started out) in a very directional manner.
If you imagine that a wire could somehow be marked across its section by slicing through it and marking this join which would be all in one plane (i.e.flat), if after the drawing process you checked this in section again, you will find that the earlier flat section has been changed to a cone shape, with the point of the cone facing the 'start' of the wire.
This physical distortion will be consistent all along the wire, so that any 'crystals' or whatever which were previously running at right-angles to the wire direction and from the centre of the wire outwards, will then be lying at an angle from the centre outwards, and facing backwards towards the trailing or end part of the wire.
It is harder to explain than I anticipated, but I have seen this effect quite clearly when the original 'billet' was made from two pieces of metal soldered together, end-to-end, before the wire was drawn, and the colour of the solder at the join revealed this effect.
What happens is that the circular hole in the die tends to 'hold back' the passage of the metal through the die as a result of friction, whereas, nearer the centre of the wire, this frictional resistance doesn't exist, so the centre core of the wire moves through the die more easily, and ends up 'leading' the metal at the outer circumference.
This has a marked affect on the surface finish as well, as can be seen under high magnification.
As far as I can see, no-one has answered the question about how one can identify the directionality of resistors, and whether (unlike caps, mostly!) there is any consistency compared with say the resistor's markings.
Does anyone know a reliable way of identifying the correct way, without having to try *every* one both ways, one at a time? (i.e. a test like the one I explained in another thread about 'sexing' capacitors.)
Regards,🙂
>My experience is that there is no one brand of resistor that is always better.<
Certainly.
>Depends on the rest of the circuit.<
And the rest of the audio system, how it is set up, local power and RF conditions, the preferences of the listener, and so on.
>Alphas have the advantage of being physically small when needed, and can be used in surface mount boards and rf (tuner) boards.<
Just like Vishay, Alpha makes resistors in S102-style molded plastic, dip-molded packages, semiconductor-style power packages, oscillator-style metal cans, a variety of surface-mount packages, and more. When it comes to variety in surface-mount packages, it is Vishay that has the wider selection. Where Alpha has a leg up on Vishay is in low-impedance surface-mount packages. These are nominally made for current-sensing applications, but if you are willing to pay for custom artwork and minimum quantities, Alpha will fabricate these in values up to 2~3 ohms. I often use them for snubber networks myself.
>Generalising, the alphs seem to have a more rounded sound than Vishays.<
The words "more murky" also come to mind... 😉
regards, jonathan carr
Certainly.
>Depends on the rest of the circuit.<
And the rest of the audio system, how it is set up, local power and RF conditions, the preferences of the listener, and so on.
>Alphas have the advantage of being physically small when needed, and can be used in surface mount boards and rf (tuner) boards.<
Just like Vishay, Alpha makes resistors in S102-style molded plastic, dip-molded packages, semiconductor-style power packages, oscillator-style metal cans, a variety of surface-mount packages, and more. When it comes to variety in surface-mount packages, it is Vishay that has the wider selection. Where Alpha has a leg up on Vishay is in low-impedance surface-mount packages. These are nominally made for current-sensing applications, but if you are willing to pay for custom artwork and minimum quantities, Alpha will fabricate these in values up to 2~3 ohms. I often use them for snubber networks myself.
>Generalising, the alphs seem to have a more rounded sound than Vishays.<
The words "more murky" also come to mind... 😉
regards, jonathan carr
Resistors In Oposition.....
Anybody tried using two resistors in parallel in opposite directions and noted any sonic differences ?.
Or two half value resistors in series, wired in oppsite directions ?.
Eric.
Anybody tried using two resistors in parallel in opposite directions and noted any sonic differences ?.
Or two half value resistors in series, wired in oppsite directions ?.
Eric.
Re: Resistors In Oposition.....
Hi Eric,
Whenever I need to adopt either of these methods to get the resistance or power handling right, I always do this is a matter of course.
This is just in case there could be any directional effects.
However, perhaps rather strangely with hindsight, I have never carried out any serious listening tests to see if it seemed to make any difference if the orientations were reversed etc.
Knowing what I do about wires and caps etc, I am amazed now the subject has arisen, that I have never tried any such tests on resistors before!
Talk about overlooking the b*e*d*n* obvious!!!
Have a good weekend. 🙂
Regards,🙂
mrfeedback said:
Hi Eric,
Whenever I need to adopt either of these methods to get the resistance or power handling right, I always do this is a matter of course.
This is just in case there could be any directional effects.
However, perhaps rather strangely with hindsight, I have never carried out any serious listening tests to see if it seemed to make any difference if the orientations were reversed etc.
Knowing what I do about wires and caps etc, I am amazed now the subject has arisen, that I have never tried any such tests on resistors before!
Talk about overlooking the b*e*d*n* obvious!!!
Have a good weekend. 🙂
Regards,🙂
Well, then I would like to add one iteration of the tests in case somebody was planning on taking shortcuts (No?). If we try by connecting two resistors in parallell we basically should not hear any difference depending on which way we turn the parallell combo. However if we connect two resistors in series we, IMHO, need not only test that but also the way in which we connect them. So given a resistor with one end labelled A and the other labelled B we need to test:
---AB--BA--- as well as ---BA--AB---
I am quite certain that some specific Swedish music will be pleasant through the first version. As for the other I don't know...
How's that Peter for giving you more tests to do?
---AB--BA--- as well as ---BA--AB---
I am quite certain that some specific Swedish music will be pleasant through the first version. As for the other I don't know...
How's that Peter for giving you more tests to do?
Hi UrSv,
What about ---AB---AB v ---BA---BA , in series as well !
Then you have the parallel AB//AB--- v ---- BA//BA
However, before I spend any time on trying these out, I wish to be sure of the resistors' orientation compared with their markings, and some assurance that any such markings are consistent, which, as I said before about capacitors, is not necessarily so.
The difference is that (as I said in the cap 'sexing' instructions) I know how to check a film cap's physical oriention by measurement, but I don't know of any way to reach a conclusion about resistors as I haven't yet found any parameters in measuring *any* resistors which are different one way from the other!
Regards,
Edit: My 'pattern' of the parallel resistors above keeps on changing from what I have typed, when I make the post. What I tried to show here is AB in // with AB, & BA in // with BA.
(Looks like 4th time I finally cracked it now!)
What about ---AB---AB v ---BA---BA , in series as well !
Then you have the parallel AB//AB--- v ---- BA//BA
However, before I spend any time on trying these out, I wish to be sure of the resistors' orientation compared with their markings, and some assurance that any such markings are consistent, which, as I said before about capacitors, is not necessarily so.
The difference is that (as I said in the cap 'sexing' instructions) I know how to check a film cap's physical oriention by measurement, but I don't know of any way to reach a conclusion about resistors as I haven't yet found any parameters in measuring *any* resistors which are different one way from the other!
Regards,
Edit: My 'pattern' of the parallel resistors above keeps on changing from what I have typed, when I make the post. What I tried to show here is AB in // with AB, & BA in // with BA.
(Looks like 4th time I finally cracked it now!)
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