hello,
I would like to reproduce the instruments as if I were at the opera or in a live concert. A few years ago I heard that to achieve this result you needed 16 speakers distributed throughout the room. I find that my experience with a pair of fullrange speakers is already much better than with a multi-way system on this point. In your opinion, how many speakers are needed to achieve this objective?
I would like to reproduce the instruments as if I were at the opera or in a live concert. A few years ago I heard that to achieve this result you needed 16 speakers distributed throughout the room. I find that my experience with a pair of fullrange speakers is already much better than with a multi-way system on this point. In your opinion, how many speakers are needed to achieve this objective?
Eh... Why 16 speakers? What is the point? Room ambience? If so, the challenge is not (just) the timbre of the instrument but the feeling of presence in the opera, right? I am curious how the setup with multispeaker looks like and how it works. Do you remember such details?
Further thoughts: The actual room reflections, disturbing noise from neighbours, visual impressions, ... Sorry for my boring or at least questioning attitude, I find your question interesting and looking forward to more posts.
Further thoughts: The actual room reflections, disturbing noise from neighbours, visual impressions, ... Sorry for my boring or at least questioning attitude, I find your question interesting and looking forward to more posts.
Genelec has done that experiment .
I used to have expensive SAM monitors from Genelec - only to find they were outclassed by the Markaudio chn110 , sounding much more like the opera house in my town.
If you sit exactly at sweet spot, a good full range driver or a WAW system is unbeaten in therms of realism in my opinion.
For multiple drivers and surround capabilities, you also need a track that will be coded in surround, whether it is 5.1, 7.2, Atmos, etc...
So, not available for everything.
For me, the closest to simulate a real concert is with Open Baffle speakers. I've always had trouble with boxed speakers that beam the music to my ears, losing that ambiance feel.
My take is that if someone is playing a violin in front of me, the sound radiates from the instrument, not just shot at me. That's what OB feels to me, instruments that are live instead of a recording that is pointed at me.
The downsides are OB speakers need room to breathe, so ideally 1.5m from any walls, better if 2m+. So you'll need a sizable room, a small bedroom will not do. And since there are no boxes, if you want any sort of bass, you will need to go up in cone sizes, and multiples even better, emphasizing the need for space! 🙂
What you get is a bass that is crisp, not boomy, and a wonderful feeling of being there.
If size is a constraint, then a transmission line for bass and OB for mid and highs. TLs are the closest to extension and tight bass that OB provide, in a smaller package.
So, not available for everything.
For me, the closest to simulate a real concert is with Open Baffle speakers. I've always had trouble with boxed speakers that beam the music to my ears, losing that ambiance feel.
My take is that if someone is playing a violin in front of me, the sound radiates from the instrument, not just shot at me. That's what OB feels to me, instruments that are live instead of a recording that is pointed at me.
The downsides are OB speakers need room to breathe, so ideally 1.5m from any walls, better if 2m+. So you'll need a sizable room, a small bedroom will not do. And since there are no boxes, if you want any sort of bass, you will need to go up in cone sizes, and multiples even better, emphasizing the need for space! 🙂
What you get is a bass that is crisp, not boomy, and a wonderful feeling of being there.
If size is a constraint, then a transmission line for bass and OB for mid and highs. TLs are the closest to extension and tight bass that OB provide, in a smaller package.
Greets!
Front row/Grand Tier center seating only requires one very large mono speaker with room treatment to mimic a Symphony/Opera house.
Front row/Grand Tier center seating only requires one very large mono speaker with room treatment to mimic a Symphony/Opera house.
I think the recent "best possible desktop" and "realities" threads have a summary-in-parts of my diy goals and results: To reproduce not-very-large ensemble acoustic instrument/vocal live concert front row experience. I also started two threads: "open-wing crossfeed headphone stereo sound" and "audio-lensing holographic depth perception". And stuffed the fullrange photo gallery with speaker experments.
To answer directly, one to six "speakers" depending on many things, is my guess.
To answer directly, one to six "speakers" depending on many things, is my guess.
Could you please elaborate on how these are connected? Are you playing ordinary stereo/2 channel content?
//
thank you all for your responses.
I don't know which manufacturer had this experience, I can't find the video anymore. Is it due to the number of speakers (that's what I had chosen) or should the coding of the track also be dolby or if it's simply the amp that does the work?
I am not closed to any design for my next constructions but it is not possible for me to have speakers placed 1.5-2m from the wall
@wchang i have just finich to read your topic : audio-lensing holographic depth perception and it's exactly what i'm looking for: wide and deep and perspective
i think it's little bit like psychoacoustic it's the way to trick our brain.
what strategy have you take place to achieve this? did you get there?
I don't know which manufacturer had this experience, I can't find the video anymore. Is it due to the number of speakers (that's what I had chosen) or should the coding of the track also be dolby or if it's simply the amp that does the work?
I am not closed to any design for my next constructions but it is not possible for me to have speakers placed 1.5-2m from the wall
@wchang i have just finich to read your topic : audio-lensing holographic depth perception and it's exactly what i'm looking for: wide and deep and perspective
i think it's little bit like psychoacoustic it's the way to trick our brain.
what strategy have you take place to achieve this? did you get there?
I find it interesting that nobody metijons one of the current 3D systems from Dolby and Aura 3D for instance, or the Trinnov systems.
I've heard an Aura 3D 19.4 system that was very, very good to reproduce the original content.
Jan
I've heard an Aura 3D 19.4 system that was very, very good to reproduce the original content.
Jan
Three-dimensional localization in opera is difficult.
I think two full ranges are the best way to get three-dimensional localization that is close to the placement of the instruments, including the movement of people.
The new Mark Audio model (MA200-M) was excellent among the ones I heard.
Peter Maxwell Davis - The Martyrdom of St Magnus was air recorded.
I think two full ranges are the best way to get three-dimensional localization that is close to the placement of the instruments, including the movement of people.
The new Mark Audio model (MA200-M) was excellent among the ones I heard.
Peter Maxwell Davis - The Martyrdom of St Magnus was air recorded.
For my understanding: do you want localisation of instruments/voices or reproduction of the sound field?
I thought you wanted the latter.
Different requirements of course.
Jan
I thought you wanted the latter.
Different requirements of course.
Jan
@jan.didden please define/explain what you meant by "sound field" so discussion can follow.
More or less, reported here or there (photo gallery a start). To reprise my diy (successes and challenges) here would take up too much space. You might also look at the glossary/synopsis below on dimensions of sound quality; all means to an end: musicality (as defined). What makes live music live music.
'Sound field' is an existing concept. I don't think I should (re)define it for my or anyone's use.
If you are unfamiliar with it, Google is your friend.
Jan
If you are unfamiliar with it, Google is your friend.
Jan
last time I was in the opera it was a joke.
All singers had headmicrofones and pretty mediocre loudspeakers even they amplified the orchestra what is not necessary at all.
So it was worse sounding than with some better speakers and a good recording at home.
Should have been asking before going there if they amplify all and everything
All singers had headmicrofones and pretty mediocre loudspeakers even they amplified the orchestra what is not necessary at all.
So it was worse sounding than with some better speakers and a good recording at home.
Should have been asking before going there if they amplify all and everything
Imho it's all about room interaction and reflections. But you will never get the same experience at home as you do in a concert hall.
The best 3D soundstage I ever heard in a living room setting comes from Audiostatics. If you're exactly in the sweet spot, which is tiny, it's pure magic and with your eyes closed it's possible to pinpoint every instrument and singer. On a good recording that is. I believe one of the reasons is that these speakers are rather beamy tall line sources, thus beaming a very clean crisp first arrival wave front to your ears that is not smeared with room reflections.
I also have a pair of lx mini's and these control off-axis response in a rather clever way. The result is a unusual natural 3D soundstage that in fact isn't that far behind the Audiostatics. And with a much larger sweet spot. If you ever have a chance to hear these, don't miss it.
The best 3D soundstage I ever heard in a living room setting comes from Audiostatics. If you're exactly in the sweet spot, which is tiny, it's pure magic and with your eyes closed it's possible to pinpoint every instrument and singer. On a good recording that is. I believe one of the reasons is that these speakers are rather beamy tall line sources, thus beaming a very clean crisp first arrival wave front to your ears that is not smeared with room reflections.
I also have a pair of lx mini's and these control off-axis response in a rather clever way. The result is a unusual natural 3D soundstage that in fact isn't that far behind the Audiostatics. And with a much larger sweet spot. If you ever have a chance to hear these, don't miss it.
If I want an experience as at the opera, I go to the opera.
Recordings don’t capture the music. Only the sound of the music.
Recordings don’t capture the music. Only the sound of the music.
For sure. There is no loudspeaker that can reproduce the experience of live orchestral music, or opera.
Example: last year we went to a performance of Bruckner's 8th. A huge work. 6 French Horns, 8 Wagner tubas, 5 trumpets and 3 trombones. And a full orchestra too.
The end of the last movement is an astonishing experience. It is the only orchestral concert we have left with ringing ears.
You simply cannot do that remotely in a domestic setting. I have a high end system throughout - and it sounds exceedingly good, producing a convincing phantom image. But as ejp says - you can get the sound of the music, but nothing like a live experience.
Example: last year we went to a performance of Bruckner's 8th. A huge work. 6 French Horns, 8 Wagner tubas, 5 trumpets and 3 trombones. And a full orchestra too.
The end of the last movement is an astonishing experience. It is the only orchestral concert we have left with ringing ears.
You simply cannot do that remotely in a domestic setting. I have a high end system throughout - and it sounds exceedingly good, producing a convincing phantom image. But as ejp says - you can get the sound of the music, but nothing like a live experience.
What GM said above -although it will also depend on the recording & specifically the mic. placement & techniques used.
Assuming no external processing, and you have amplifiers that can handle it (i.e. aren't internally bridged) there are a couple of things you can do that can help -this is going the opposite way to GM, just for a bit of variety!
1/ Add a second pair of stereo speakers spaced a little to either side of the existing, and preferably run at a slightly reduced level; in quadraphonics this was one (one -there were several, so don't rely on it) configuration that got lumped under the term 'width stereo'. A preceeding variation on this theme that requires either a specific house & room layout, or the ability to build solid walls in your listening room, was what was originally called 'bi-amplification' (which has nothing whatsoever to do with what is usually called biamplification / biamping today). I assume you can't build walls in your listening room though, so will let that particular implementation pass
2/ Hafler stereo. Or rather, Gerzon / Hafler, since they independently came up with it at about the same time. If your amplifier isn't internally bridged & can handle the load, place an additional pair of speakers to the side & behind your listening position. Wire their - terminals together, and each positive terminal to the corresponding positive on the amplifier. The rear channel speakers will play the stereo difference signal, i.e. everything that isn't common to both channels (which gets put out of phase & cancels out). It's an effective, completely passive way of extracting ambient information from a stereo source that tends to get masked when folded into two channels (remember, stereo isn't strictly speaking 2.0 -we just call it that due to the physical layout & usual number of speakers). This is also best done if you can power the rear channels independently. A more involved version, providing your rear-channel amplifier can handle it, is to bridge the negatives between amplifier & speakers through a variable resistor, which introduces a little common-signal back into the rear channels but also provides some stereo separation; if you don't have a variable resistor you can use a fixed power-resistor of suitable rating at, say, 1.5x the nominal rear channel speaker impedance, which in effect provides the EV-4 (Stereo 4) or 2nd generation Dynaquad quadraphonic matrix decoding (not a joke -the coefficients are more or less identical).
Assuming no external processing, and you have amplifiers that can handle it (i.e. aren't internally bridged) there are a couple of things you can do that can help -this is going the opposite way to GM, just for a bit of variety!
1/ Add a second pair of stereo speakers spaced a little to either side of the existing, and preferably run at a slightly reduced level; in quadraphonics this was one (one -there were several, so don't rely on it) configuration that got lumped under the term 'width stereo'. A preceeding variation on this theme that requires either a specific house & room layout, or the ability to build solid walls in your listening room, was what was originally called 'bi-amplification' (which has nothing whatsoever to do with what is usually called biamplification / biamping today). I assume you can't build walls in your listening room though, so will let that particular implementation pass
2/ Hafler stereo. Or rather, Gerzon / Hafler, since they independently came up with it at about the same time. If your amplifier isn't internally bridged & can handle the load, place an additional pair of speakers to the side & behind your listening position. Wire their - terminals together, and each positive terminal to the corresponding positive on the amplifier. The rear channel speakers will play the stereo difference signal, i.e. everything that isn't common to both channels (which gets put out of phase & cancels out). It's an effective, completely passive way of extracting ambient information from a stereo source that tends to get masked when folded into two channels (remember, stereo isn't strictly speaking 2.0 -we just call it that due to the physical layout & usual number of speakers). This is also best done if you can power the rear channels independently. A more involved version, providing your rear-channel amplifier can handle it, is to bridge the negatives between amplifier & speakers through a variable resistor, which introduces a little common-signal back into the rear channels but also provides some stereo separation; if you don't have a variable resistor you can use a fixed power-resistor of suitable rating at, say, 1.5x the nominal rear channel speaker impedance, which in effect provides the EV-4 (Stereo 4) or 2nd generation Dynaquad quadraphonic matrix decoding (not a joke -the coefficients are more or less identical).
I spend the Friday with a couple of friends comparing amplifiers and speakers.
Great equipment, and it sounded absolutely fabulous.
When leaving the room to get a cup of coffee, someone absent-mindedly played a few keys on the piano he was passing.
We stopped in our tracks, looked at each other and said - who are we trying to fool??
Jan
Great equipment, and it sounded absolutely fabulous.
When leaving the room to get a cup of coffee, someone absent-mindedly played a few keys on the piano he was passing.
We stopped in our tracks, looked at each other and said - who are we trying to fool??
Jan