I have a damaged pair of Acoustat model 3s. I bought them with one terminally damaged 9" center panel (something had smashed through it). I originally intended to replace the one (9") panel, but I was thinking about just making a pair of 1+1s out of the remaining good panels & transformers. What do you guys think? Is it worth finding a replacement center panel to make the 3s "right" again, or are the 1+1s nearly as good... maybe better in imaging? I'm not intimidated by making frames, I was planing to make something better for the 3s anyway, and I have a few good subs around, so bass isn't my main concern either. The real question is, are the 3s enough more "full bodied" to justify sourcing & buying another panel, or would 1+1s really perform as well.
For that matter, does anyone here know where I could find a 9" panel - or would anyone be interested in buying the other good one?
For that matter, does anyone here know where I could find a 9" panel - or would anyone be interested in buying the other good one?
I got mine this far: Associated Equipment
The next step was to add wings to push the start of the dipole roll-off down in frequency.
But i got unto small tube amps & single FR drivers.
dave
The next step was to add wings to push the start of the dipole roll-off down in frequency.
But i got unto small tube amps & single FR drivers.
dave
If it is a center panel, it should be 8" unless they are spectra's. Your most difficult part of the 1+1 project will be finding the wire from the top panel. I have found thin wire through surplus. The image will be better. Good luck.
I have 1+1's in storage, love them too much to ever sell. Loaded in the right width room and an amp with alot of power and dampening control, 1+1's will have reasonable bass. In an 11' wide room with a Rowlnad model one, I had frequency response clean below 40 hz. Imaging second only to some 6' tall Newform Ribbons I owned.
I have 1+1's in storage, love them too much to ever sell. Loaded in the right width room and an amp with alot of power and dampening control, 1+1's will have reasonable bass. In an 11' wide room with a Rowlnad model one, I had frequency response clean below 40 hz. Imaging second only to some 6' tall Newform Ribbons I owned.
the 0ne +0ne is the best Acoustat for stage and image of all the Acoustat models.. With a good amp which is stable into the load the 0ne + 0ne can surprise you with the bass it can make but on its own it won't match a model three so a sub will be in order. Replace the blue NP input electrolytic with a top quality cap or parallel up the necessary number of plastic caps. When you add wire to the panel which goes up top stagger the splices and insulate with couple of layers of shrink and you will be fine. Enjoy. Best regards Moray James.
The New Mod i have in My Acoustats...
That came from the SoundLabe guys ....
Is one cap 40mf Oil in pos. leg of the High frc transfourer.... between this Cap an the tranfourmer i run a Zobel type 10ohm 100w though a 20mf 350v polsteen to the neg input....Or Nothing at all on the high frc primary for the most output..jims frist crossover in the 121A...is the right one..No crossover..the crossover C mod sucks the life out of the sound... an this is what the SL guys found also in there interface....No res...to the Neg....less it thought a cap i say!
The 1+1 to me are not needed...i have set my panels in the 1+1..2+2..i find i get more output with the panels center at ear level..an better sound... about 1' off the floor...
Jus like the M3s....I find the most who have the 1+1 an lov them have a small room..but if your puting the panels togather anyway you wont...go with a pr of M2s panels side by side.. But put the panels flat..sounds sweet.....this is just a ESL nuts...thinking...an finding..goodluck
That came from the SoundLabe guys ....
Is one cap 40mf Oil in pos. leg of the High frc transfourer.... between this Cap an the tranfourmer i run a Zobel type 10ohm 100w though a 20mf 350v polsteen to the neg input....Or Nothing at all on the high frc primary for the most output..jims frist crossover in the 121A...is the right one..No crossover..the crossover C mod sucks the life out of the sound... an this is what the SL guys found also in there interface....No res...to the Neg....less it thought a cap i say!
The 1+1 to me are not needed...i have set my panels in the 1+1..2+2..i find i get more output with the panels center at ear level..an better sound... about 1' off the floor...
Jus like the M3s....I find the most who have the 1+1 an lov them have a small room..but if your puting the panels togather anyway you wont...go with a pr of M2s panels side by side.. But put the panels flat..sounds sweet.....this is just a ESL nuts...thinking...an finding..goodluck
One of the biggest mods i did to mine was to split the LF & HF and use 2 amp channels for each speaker.
dave
dave
Yeah, 8" sounds right ...I was going off memory, not as reliable as it once was. I just knew it was the smaller panel.
It sounds like the consensus here is to go ahead and make 1+1s... that's the way I'm leaning too. Thanks for all the suggestions, and keep 'um cumin.
I've listened to 1+1s in the past, and thought the best listening height was a little high, so I was thinking about making a frame that allowed each panel to be adjusted slightly for tilt, allowing me to angle the lower one back, and the upper one forward, or vice-verso. Has anyone here played with such an arrangement?
I have had 8pr of interfaces.....all of the bias are off....3700....should be 5k...get the bias up an youll be abel to drive them with 50watt tube amp ....leave at 3-4k 1000w wont drive them ...well it well an kill your interface tranfourmers or the amps...I have found to get the best topend...sweet topend...is to get new caps for the primary side of the high frc. tranfourmers....there is the 0.1....5k...in the stock setup...i put 6k .0015...best topend i have ever got out of the Acoustats...
For one thing..people like the 1+1s the best is there Flat!...but the M3s..or the M2s...setup in a frame with all 3 panels flate can sound as good with better base than the Quad57s..
So what you have is 4ea 9" panels an 2ea 8"panels in the M3s..one 8" is shot....Jim only made two panels 8"...9"... I use all 9" in my setups...there a lot of fun.....But my MartinLogans have lot more output with Moded Panels......goodluck
For one thing..people like the 1+1s the best is there Flat!...but the M3s..or the M2s...setup in a frame with all 3 panels flate can sound as good with better base than the Quad57s..
So what you have is 4ea 9" panels an 2ea 8"panels in the M3s..one 8" is shot....Jim only made two panels 8"...9"... I use all 9" in my setups...there a lot of fun.....But my MartinLogans have lot more output with Moded Panels......goodluck
If your going to angel the panels, theres a lot to it as far as time alignment. I have done this several times with poor results. The speakers are line sources, so any additional delayed response greatly effects the presentation. You would want to really measure and have a lot of a ajustment. The other issue is bass response. Angling toward you tighens up the image ( my preference) angling back reinforces the bass. You would be doing both. I never had any luck. Note that i was using Servo amps and not interfaces. Keep us informed.
As I've been thinking about this, I'm starting to believe (as ehous suggests) that angling the panels independently may not be too good an idea. Now I'm thinking of simply angling the pair together forward a few degrees in order to aim them down to my preferred listening height. I'm picturing the frames with four threaded legs - two on top, two on bottom, and long enough to support the panels between floor & ceiling, and deep enough to allow a few degrees of panel swing so the speakers will not look like they are falling forward. Anyone here tried securing their speakers to both the floor & ceiling? Or played with angling them forward or back? If so, what did you find?
So far this is still a "mental exorcize", as I haven't even started experimenting yet, but I am planning on starting a rebuild of a pair of Crown ES 1224s, and if I get started on wood work for them, I may as well dig into the Acoustats as well. It's just the way my mind works, if I'm in "wood building mode" I figure I may as well dive all in! I hope to start actual work before fall, but It's not that pressing, and the longer I "noodle around" with these ideas, the more solid my plan will become. I also have ESL63s, CLS, and KLH9s waiting in the wings for repair &/or updates, but those will be electronic jobs, and I'm a bit less bold in that department. My goal is to turn all the broken unused speakers in my basement into fully functional unused speakers in my basement. LOL!
So far this is still a "mental exorcize", as I haven't even started experimenting yet, but I am planning on starting a rebuild of a pair of Crown ES 1224s, and if I get started on wood work for them, I may as well dig into the Acoustats as well. It's just the way my mind works, if I'm in "wood building mode" I figure I may as well dive all in! I hope to start actual work before fall, but It's not that pressing, and the longer I "noodle around" with these ideas, the more solid my plan will become. I also have ESL63s, CLS, and KLH9s waiting in the wings for repair &/or updates, but those will be electronic jobs, and I'm a bit less bold in that department. My goal is to turn all the broken unused speakers in my basement into fully functional unused speakers in my basement. LOL!
I never liked the 1+1 arrangement. The gap between the panels ends up very close to ear level when seated. NG. Although one would like to think of the panels as radiating evenly across their entire vertical dimension, the ears don't quite agree. With two panels stacked I hear them as two sources, top and bottom, mostly due to the gap between panels.
Having heard almost all of the arrangements, including 6's and 8's, My favorite is the 3. Good bass, and very good imaging. 4s have best bass of the non stacked multi panel versions. Very impressive.
If the bias is low, that is because either the caps in the multiplier string are leaky/dead and/or one or more of the HV diodes are blown. Good idea to replace all the caps with new ceramic NPO types of higher voltage and replace all the diodes with high voltage types too...
I had my 1+1s wedged between the floor and ceiling - nice fit - and expected more, as this ought to be an ideal situation for a line source! I was disappointed and did not like them compared to the standard 3s.
I do not know if wings would improve the 1+1 configuration.
Oh, the deficit I felt the most with the 1+1 is/was the lower midrange and upper mid bass. I have substantial subs to augment the bottom end.
Also, in a tall speaker the acoustical surface of the ceiling compared to the floor will greatly effect the apparent image location and virtual height, also the apparent frequency balance as well.
I think the Crown speakers use JanZen element and RTR tweeters? Interesting speakers... not quite up to todays standards though.
Not sure if these comments help or not...
_-_-bear
Having heard almost all of the arrangements, including 6's and 8's, My favorite is the 3. Good bass, and very good imaging. 4s have best bass of the non stacked multi panel versions. Very impressive.
If the bias is low, that is because either the caps in the multiplier string are leaky/dead and/or one or more of the HV diodes are blown. Good idea to replace all the caps with new ceramic NPO types of higher voltage and replace all the diodes with high voltage types too...
I had my 1+1s wedged between the floor and ceiling - nice fit - and expected more, as this ought to be an ideal situation for a line source! I was disappointed and did not like them compared to the standard 3s.
I do not know if wings would improve the 1+1 configuration.
Oh, the deficit I felt the most with the 1+1 is/was the lower midrange and upper mid bass. I have substantial subs to augment the bottom end.
Also, in a tall speaker the acoustical surface of the ceiling compared to the floor will greatly effect the apparent image location and virtual height, also the apparent frequency balance as well.
I think the Crown speakers use JanZen element and RTR tweeters? Interesting speakers... not quite up to todays standards though.
Not sure if these comments help or not...
_-_-bear
Bear, you bring up some of the concerns I've had about 1+1s. Like I said, it's been quite a while since I've heard 1+1s, but I recall being annoyed at the need to sit up very high in my seat for them to sound "right". I was thinking it had to do with the "gap" between upper & lower panels, but thought it may be correctable with tilting the panels down a bit. It sounds like you didn't find that to be much of a cure. I was a bit afraid someone would have tried this, and if it was that easy, everyone would be tilting their 1+1s like that. I'm more surprised to hear that fixing them to the ceiling helped so little. Discouraging news indeed, now I'm reconsidering replacing the damaged panel, and keeping the "Three" configuration.
The Crown used RTR panels... but very similar to JanZen. They sound pretty good now, but I think they will improve considerably once I go through the power supplies, and cross-overs. As they are now, the 'stats are having a hard time running all the way down to the 350hz factory cross-over point, and moving it up much to relieve the panels creates a hole in the lower mid range. I haven't measured voltages, but I suspect they are a little low. Still, very promising!
The Crown used RTR panels... but very similar to JanZen. They sound pretty good now, but I think they will improve considerably once I go through the power supplies, and cross-overs. As they are now, the 'stats are having a hard time running all the way down to the 350hz factory cross-over point, and moving it up much to relieve the panels creates a hole in the lower mid range. I haven't measured voltages, but I suspect they are a little low. Still, very promising!
Look, some people really like the 1+1s better than the others. That's just my personal opinion. Fwiw I also preferred the side by side model "2" over the 1+1...
Crown used the black square cells (I think, if I remember right), which were JanZen and the blue 1/2 wide cells which were RTR. RTR, afaik merely copied JanZen. I had a friend with the Crowns, another with the Infinity ServoStatic 2, and I have owned a JanZen HF speaker... back in the day I salivated over them... but they have a peculiar sound, and will not play particularly loud. Also the coating on the diaphragm "gives up" where it connects out to the HV bias connection, causing them to fail. Of course that is after decades, but still.
_-_-bear
PS. I also own an example of the Stanton Isophase ESL! 😀
Crown used the black square cells (I think, if I remember right), which were JanZen and the blue 1/2 wide cells which were RTR. RTR, afaik merely copied JanZen. I had a friend with the Crowns, another with the Infinity ServoStatic 2, and I have owned a JanZen HF speaker... back in the day I salivated over them... but they have a peculiar sound, and will not play particularly loud. Also the coating on the diaphragm "gives up" where it connects out to the HV bias connection, causing them to fail. Of course that is after decades, but still.
_-_-bear
PS. I also own an example of the Stanton Isophase ESL! 😀
The 1+1 only work well in a smalll room i have found ....
But i think if you could take a 2+2 an get the bottem panels off the floor ...so the center of panels were at ear livel....Right....
Look there not much output you hear... less you stand....i dont stand...an dont know any one who dose...
So what do we know...
The panels sound better off the floor...the top panels dont do much ....but the interfaces i have found work better with more panels...
4 are a bit much...but we like that...bit much.... but i have found after all...The 1s,1+1s,2,2+2s.M3,M4s... 3ea 9" panels setup like the M3s flat...give the best sound ...but the 2s flat...is a vary good sound
Now back to the bias ...jim setup the 121 way it is because of .... $$$$$...he would have like to get the bias off the driver board...
.5kv buzzing around the caps an res...not the best thing....but it worket... This setup can pull bias down...so just rebild the bias...all the Acoustats are well over 30years old...bias is what a ESL is...i put mine in it own box...an i can set it from 4k-7k...thay have never sound better..
.what.you got the tranfourmers better than the one used in the 20k soundLabs..so mabe $50.ea..too rebild....yes...goodluck
Long Live Acoustats
But i think if you could take a 2+2 an get the bottem panels off the floor ...so the center of panels were at ear livel....Right....
Look there not much output you hear... less you stand....i dont stand...an dont know any one who dose...
So what do we know...
The panels sound better off the floor...the top panels dont do much ....but the interfaces i have found work better with more panels...
4 are a bit much...but we like that...bit much.... but i have found after all...The 1s,1+1s,2,2+2s.M3,M4s... 3ea 9" panels setup like the M3s flat...give the best sound ...but the 2s flat...is a vary good sound
Now back to the bias ...jim setup the 121 way it is because of .... $$$$$...he would have like to get the bias off the driver board...
.5kv buzzing around the caps an res...not the best thing....but it worket... This setup can pull bias down...so just rebild the bias...all the Acoustats are well over 30years old...bias is what a ESL is...i put mine in it own box...an i can set it from 4k-7k...thay have never sound better..
.what.you got the tranfourmers better than the one used in the 20k soundLabs..so mabe $50.ea..too rebild....yes...goodluck
Long Live Acoustats
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Actually, Crown used blue RTR panels, square in the ES224 & 212, and some of the rectangular ones in their smaller models. Though I don't know for certain, it has been suggested that RTR actually built all the Crown ES line of speakers by Crown's design. Infinity started out with RTR rectangular in the original SS1, but as they evolved, they shifted back & forth between RTR & JanZen... at least one version I've seen had both!
For the record, I'm much more of an electrostatic speaker horder/collector, than technical expert, and my skills are largely mechanical, so if I'm going to modify any of these, it'll be mostly centered around cabinets, with the electronics being handed off to more skilled people to straighten out.
BTW Bear, I'm not shifting my plans just off your post, I'm still on the fence. But your observations do parallel what I remember of the 1+1 sound - not that they were "bad", or I wouldn't be considering building them, but these are just some "extra" speakers that I'm trying to decide what to do with. I've even considered making 4 Acoustat 1s, and using the one good center panel as a center channel in a 5.1 system with a pair of Velodyne uld12s. But I really don't need a surround system, and then they would take up even more room! 😉
For the record, I'm much more of an electrostatic speaker horder/collector, than technical expert, and my skills are largely mechanical, so if I'm going to modify any of these, it'll be mostly centered around cabinets, with the electronics being handed off to more skilled people to straighten out.
BTW Bear, I'm not shifting my plans just off your post, I'm still on the fence. But your observations do parallel what I remember of the 1+1 sound - not that they were "bad", or I wouldn't be considering building them, but these are just some "extra" speakers that I'm trying to decide what to do with. I've even considered making 4 Acoustat 1s, and using the one good center panel as a center channel in a 5.1 system with a pair of Velodyne uld12s. But I really don't need a surround system, and then they would take up even more room! 😉
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But if you are going to go with the 1+1s...keep the bad 8"panel...pop it apart...theres your wire for the long runs from the top panels....This wire sound great...not just any wire works as well ....i just add as much wire to the bottem panel as the top...goodluck
I have 10 janZen panels that work great...thanks for the pic
I have 10 janZen panels that work great...thanks for the pic
If you look at my virtual system on audiogon, user name ehous. You will see my attempt at the 8" center panel. It is on axis with my listinging posistion and the 1+1's are acting as fill. It worked well, but not perfect. I like the Model two's beter and the model 2+2's even more. Currently using two plus two's.
Link: http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1261710315.jpg
Link: http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1261710315.jpg
I have a pair of Acoustat 6s that I have been enjoying for over 20 years now. The main issue with Acoustats is driving them. They are an extremely reactive load, and many high grade solid state amplifiers simply burn up when faced with them; others distort badly. Tube amplifiers are much more tolerant, but if things sound bad, it is probably the amplifier.
Panels avaliable
I have panels from Acoustat 3s and 4s available. you can write me at ramtubes@gmail.com
I have panels from Acoustat 3s and 4s available. you can write me at ramtubes@gmail.com
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