that $40 15 has good spec (xmax 4mm, qt ~0.32, fs 33, Le 1.05mH, Vas 321.3 liters) for Karlson or reflex (like a "Cornwall") - Karlson K15 will have more impact, less excursion,richer, less one-note bass but less LF extension as the rear chamber size and overall system tuning pretty much determine it's LF characteristics. 3mm excursion in the Karlson is plenty. That B52 18 has a fair amount of inductance vs Re - still a bargain.
For a W bin and that 15, you could build a vented La Scala type as described by the late DJK. It was meant to take advantage of room gain and use active underdamped 2nd order highpass filter at ~fb. As it was intended to convert a real La Scala by using the top enclosure holding the K400 and K77 horns, that top portion when enclosed added about 2 cubic foot to the rear chamber's volume. Some folks build a "riser" under the cabinet holding the ports. Like everything, it would have tradeoffs. You will need a midhorn and tweeter horn with the W-bin. Finding a small cone driver which can keep up can be a problems. There are ~$30 compression drivers which would be ok on say an Altec 511 as midhorn. A piezo can be used on a stepup transformer to get 103dB at 2.83v
I have heard some rap cuts have jaw dropping impact on K15 - I think a reflex would sound weak in comparison. I have W-bins (Peavey FH1) K-horns, Edgarhorns, Sentry IV , and still find value in the Karlson enclosure.
For a W bin and that 15, you could build a vented La Scala type as described by the late DJK. It was meant to take advantage of room gain and use active underdamped 2nd order highpass filter at ~fb. As it was intended to convert a real La Scala by using the top enclosure holding the K400 and K77 horns, that top portion when enclosed added about 2 cubic foot to the rear chamber's volume. Some folks build a "riser" under the cabinet holding the ports. Like everything, it would have tradeoffs. You will need a midhorn and tweeter horn with the W-bin. Finding a small cone driver which can keep up can be a problems. There are ~$30 compression drivers which would be ok on say an Altec 511 as midhorn. A piezo can be used on a stepup transformer to get 103dB at 2.83v
I have heard some rap cuts have jaw dropping impact on K15 - I think a reflex would sound weak in comparison. I have W-bins (Peavey FH1) K-horns, Edgarhorns, Sentry IV , and still find value in the Karlson enclosure.
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KaffiMann, it was my second post ever, the moderators were chewing on it. Thank you for doing the sim. I love the response, and that would get me there. But at 6 cubic feet a speaker, I think it's too big. I didn't want to limit the size in my original post because moderately low power bass often comes from huge cabinets. Let's say I want to keep the cabinets under 3.5 cubic feet(100l). Again, i really appreciate you giving my post attention and doing the simulation.
freddi, I like the look of the Karlson cabinets. I would probably have to use a smaller speaker due to the overall dimensions needed to execute this type of enclosure. I will keep them in mind, but they wouldn't be my first choice. Is the theory on these that the bass compresses twice? And what does the veil do?
JMFahey, what i've learned in the last two days it seems that people on this forum don't try to reinvent the wheel, makes sense. That cabinet I'm sure works amazing on the type of music I listen to since it's loved by people producing the music I like. However, I think it's too big.
Last night as I was reading about the Fane drivers and their catalog I stumbled onto some drivers that seem interesting to me. Could you guys comment on the parameters for these if I used two of them per cabinet? I really want to do ported speakers, but can't find specs for suggested boxes for these. But do the parameters tell anything?
https://www.newark.com/mcm-audio-select/55-2962/12-die-cast-woofer-with-paper/dp/80R7007
I don't want to seem like you guys are throwing me ideas, and i'm dismissing them and doing my own thing. However I have a vision of what I want, but don't want to do what every diy enthusiast tells newbies like me "just start building and hope for the best".
freddi, I like the look of the Karlson cabinets. I would probably have to use a smaller speaker due to the overall dimensions needed to execute this type of enclosure. I will keep them in mind, but they wouldn't be my first choice. Is the theory on these that the bass compresses twice? And what does the veil do?
JMFahey, what i've learned in the last two days it seems that people on this forum don't try to reinvent the wheel, makes sense. That cabinet I'm sure works amazing on the type of music I listen to since it's loved by people producing the music I like. However, I think it's too big.
Last night as I was reading about the Fane drivers and their catalog I stumbled onto some drivers that seem interesting to me. Could you guys comment on the parameters for these if I used two of them per cabinet? I really want to do ported speakers, but can't find specs for suggested boxes for these. But do the parameters tell anything?
https://www.newark.com/mcm-audio-select/55-2962/12-die-cast-woofer-with-paper/dp/80R7007
I don't want to seem like you guys are throwing me ideas, and i'm dismissing them and doing my own thing. However I have a vision of what I want, but don't want to do what every diy enthusiast tells newbies like me "just start building and hope for the best".
here's one of my vintage K15 cabinets on the right - the little one with 10" speaker on the left is punchy and has a K-tube tweeter. Although I have over a ton of horns, none is favored over the old K.
Is that an Eminence delta10 in the smaller K on the left?
Ive used them, and your right they are punchy as hell…probably even more so in the Karlson.…
here's that 15" in a 60 liter sealed box with 450uF series cap (you need a good capacitor and low output Z amplifier - won't work with zero FB SE tube amp)
about 20-25 watts input at ~60Hz will hit the driver's rated 4mm xmax
2 pi 1 watt nominal input (2.83v/8 ohms)
about 20-25 watts input at ~60Hz will hit the driver's rated 4mm xmax
2 pi 1 watt nominal input (2.83v/8 ohms)
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@johnnycamp5 - yeah - that's a Delta10a in the little Karlson box. That box is 18mm Baltic birch and very little flex. 4X Delta10a in a K would make an interesting bass guitar rig (old school LF) with 1KW - What lowpass filter do you use with Delta10A to counter its "rise" ?
Even $100 Econowave designs have good reviews.
Here is a popular 12" woofer + 1" compression driver.
A ported box volume from 2.2-2.5cuft produces good bass, but with modest efficiency. An 18" woofer box can always be stacked below.
Since you live in the USA and already mentioned Parts Express
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$34 Selenium 1" compression driver 2/3 Bolt
Selenium 8 Ohm Model: D220Ti-OMF-8 |Part # 299-2321
select 12" woofer:
$42 Dayton Audio DC300-8 12" Classic Woofer 295-320_ALT_2.jpg
or better
$76 Dayton 12" woofer DS315-8
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For $500 in parts you could construct amazing speakers.
Attachments
Also a big woofer and a fullrange might sound good IME.
Something like a 15" in a 120-150 l cab
A 5-6 " fullrange with a whizzer cone ( yes, a whizzer cone ! ), it doesn't need any box.
Cross the woofer with 2-3 mH coil and 30-50 uF ( for 8 Ω )
High pass with a cap, according to the impedance of the speaker, the fullrange.
Same as Econowave, where the transition of directionality from the tweeter to the woofer is guaranteed by the horn in the 2 kHz region, with a fullrange the transition is in the 500 Hz region.
Something like a 15" in a 120-150 l cab
A 5-6 " fullrange with a whizzer cone ( yes, a whizzer cone ! ), it doesn't need any box.
Cross the woofer with 2-3 mH coil and 30-50 uF ( for 8 Ω )
High pass with a cap, according to the impedance of the speaker, the fullrange.
Same as Econowave, where the transition of directionality from the tweeter to the woofer is guaranteed by the horn in the 2 kHz region, with a fullrange the transition is in the 500 Hz region.
This is very good and relevant info. But 100 liters ported sort of limits you to a single 12" max, that's not a problem though, you can play stupid loud with a single 12" if it's the right one.
You are also interested in what the parameters tell you?
Would you like a finished sim for a single 12"?
I have one 101 liter box ready to fire away if this is the case, and it is suitable to the driver you posted (MCM 55-2962), the Dayton Audio PA310-8, the Eminence Beta-12LTA (would need help from a tweeter), or the Eminence Delta Pro 12-450A.
It would also work with the Fane 12-250TC, the Fane is, to my knowledge, the only single driver that would be able to work all by itself in that size enclosure, for that price, and in such a wide range. It simulates slow roll of from f0 (a hair over 95db) 70hz, f6 40hz, f10 of 24hz. In room it may give better response pending on placement.
Or maybe you want to try doing it yourself?
It does not have to be that hard, it may seem a bit daunting at first, but it's not so hard really, and Hornresp is a really great simulation tool that can do a number of different types of design.
Well, if you are really into it, this is the cabinet loved by Reggae Bass players.
If you want to reproduce their thunderous lows, no questions asked, you might build your own:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
They have this Cerwin Vega inside:
of course, this covers just the woofer side, feel free to add your favourite mids and highs.
And I bet it must be quite competent to reproduce Hip Hop Bass tracks too 🙂
W-bins aren't great for low-frequency extension. They'll give you a load of output down to 70Hz, and a bit lower if used in blocks of 4+ per side, but I'd never call them "thunderous". That's reserved for the cabinets that go an octave lower IMO.
To the OP, I'm working on something with the Fane 15" full-range unit. The motor (magnet + voice coil) is on the weak side, but with some modifications I think it'll play nice in a smaller enclosure.
I've heard good reports of putting them in a ~100L sealed box. Haven't tried them like that myself.
Chris
Chris: Did you get them yet? You seem so positive. 🙂
Looking forward to your opinion. 🙂
Had to add a sig again, hopefully it's not enough to offend anyone this time. :-D
Looking forward to your opinion. 🙂
Had to add a sig again, hopefully it's not enough to offend anyone this time. :-D
Hi,
I talked to a friend which is involved with a dub soundsystem. He told me they run either three or four way design (depend on style and venue), horn loaded for high, high mid, low mid the low end type vary depending of size of room, outdoor, style played ( if you are into oldschool no real need below 50hz).
He thought given your room and constraints about size he would go three way and talked about something similar of LineSource's example, econowave approach + as big a subwoofer as possible closed box - for new school ragga/dancehall, trap or dirty south's 808 drone it may be a game changer to have an 18".
An other proof (for me) LineSource is always spot on with his advice in my view. ( this is without saying other advice are'nt good too, just i found funny that my friend's advice was so close to LineSource's one).
About instrument amplifier, well yes it could work but don't forget microphone techniques are involved too. For a classical old school 'dub' bass sound i've already miced the backside of a closedbox 15": it kills every mids/treble and no needs to use a (synthesizer's) filter to have that big round sound without overemphised attack.
I talked to a friend which is involved with a dub soundsystem. He told me they run either three or four way design (depend on style and venue), horn loaded for high, high mid, low mid the low end type vary depending of size of room, outdoor, style played ( if you are into oldschool no real need below 50hz).
He thought given your room and constraints about size he would go three way and talked about something similar of LineSource's example, econowave approach + as big a subwoofer as possible closed box - for new school ragga/dancehall, trap or dirty south's 808 drone it may be a game changer to have an 18".
An other proof (for me) LineSource is always spot on with his advice in my view. ( this is without saying other advice are'nt good too, just i found funny that my friend's advice was so close to LineSource's one).
About instrument amplifier, well yes it could work but don't forget microphone techniques are involved too. For a classical old school 'dub' bass sound i've already miced the backside of a closedbox 15": it kills every mids/treble and no needs to use a (synthesizer's) filter to have that big round sound without overemphised attack.
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Yep, a pair have arrived here. The house is still a building site, though, so I've had 5 minutes of listening by putting them on the floor and connecting a bluetooth amplifier powered by AA batteries. They're back in the boxes now.
Dub/reggae sound systems are rarely close to HiFi IME. Most get pretty loud, and some get really really loud. Not many actually sound good, though.
Some info here - Grimshaw Audio Sound System
There's some marketing, of course, but the facts are in there, too. Particularly the bit about needing a dedicated midbass section to compensate for the shortcomings of the sub section.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I agree about the sound quality of dub/reggae 'traditional' soundsystem. But it is part of the sound ( the lateral array of tweeter always make me laugh) and culture.
My friend talked a lot of their 'propriatary' all tube process which give 'their sound' ( a lot of distortion generator involved!) when they play old stuff.
That said for new school they are in the same playground as (good) techno/edm soundsystems.
I agree about the sound quality of dub/reggae 'traditional' soundsystem. But it is part of the sound ( the lateral array of tweeter always make me laugh) and culture.
My friend talked a lot of their 'propriatary' all tube process which give 'their sound' ( a lot of distortion generator involved!) when they play old stuff.
That said for new school they are in the same playground as (good) techno/edm soundsystems.
I suggested the Karlson box as feel it can provide the output needed (cone excursion will be low as will be distortion) - they do roll off below 60Hz outdoors. I'd buy that 15 Eminence but already have at least 16 drivers sitting including two pairs of B&C 15s. It has a 3" coil, 80oz magnet and rated 300W. That driver would be versatile - IF 4mm xmax is sufficient (probably its real overhang as that's the Eminence used to rate things) then that driver would be good. Its suited for reflex (including 6th order, could work in a tapped pipe/offset TL.
some years back I purchased new a Yorkville bass cabinet - some sort of "horn" and about 11 cubic feet. I was appalled as a crude Karlson box (not as refined as the original 1951 "K15")loaded with an Eminence 18 had much less distortion.
box on left was the one in the graph above - it was
about 8 cubic foot and from one 4'x8' sheet
some years back I purchased new a Yorkville bass cabinet - some sort of "horn" and about 11 cubic feet. I was appalled as a crude Karlson box (not as refined as the original 1951 "K15")loaded with an Eminence 18 had much less distortion.
box on left was the one in the graph above - it was
about 8 cubic foot and from one 4'x8' sheet
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btw, Jim Bell's ("Jbell") single sheet tapped horn sims better than about anything else its size and a consideration as a building block. The Karlson box has no bandwidth restrictions on the high end and as was intended for coaxial drivers of its day. My K18's 18 inch woofer goes to about 4KHz on axis (EVM18B)
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