Reference vs. preference

[pnix]

pnix, your loosing your time here. what do you want to proove? that fullrange based system cannot be good enough for hifi?
Most of us already know and you certainly also know.

This might come as a surprise but I don't agree. Full-range drivers can have their place in value focused speaker concepts.

what I have a problem here, is how certain members alway push the same drivers
its all MA or Fostex been recommended over and over and over again.

That's my observation as well.

 

[pnix]

Suggestions?

Reference vs. preference
or
Production vs. reproduction

Get creative, don't be offensive.

 

[youknowyou]

but you need support in highs and low and I begin to realize that all my favorite speakers all seem to have a low xo at around 2khz or less to a compression driver or tweeter. so Im not sure if I follow the point of a fullrange driver based system

This might come as a surprise but I don't agree. Full-range drivers can have their place in value focused speaker concepts.



That's my observation as well.

as for MA and fostex being pushed over and over, I have a serious problem about that

 

[youknowyou]

Reference vs. preference

I like that one
but how can you knoow your preference if you dont have any reference

 

[pnix]

Reference vs. preference

I like that one
but how can you knoow your preference if you dont have any reference

Exactly

 

[planet10]

Reference vs. preference

I like that one
but how can you knoow your preference if you dont have any reference

It should be noted that the Harman sponsered tests are preference tests.

dave

 

[pnix]

It should be noted that the Harman sponsered tests are preference tests.

dave

It's Harman with an a. Those tests weren't sponsored but conducted by Harman. Not a secret. They even offer peer reviewed papers for free at Harman - Scientific Publications

Do you remember the Coke/Pepsi preference tests? Any audiophool should know them. Tells a lot about preference, reference and business.

 

[planet10]

Those tests weren't sponsored but conducted by Harman.

Done in Harman facilities and both Olive & Toole were working for Harman. That is indicatibe that they were sponsored by Harman. Others have used less to brand results as coloured if not outright biasedm even if not.

dave

 

[pnix]

Done in Harman facilities and both Olive & Toole were working for Harman. That is indicatibe that they were sponsored by Harman. Others have used less to brand results as coloured if not outright biasedm even if not.

dave

That is certainly true but you repeatedly fail to show what the error in their scientific study really is.
At the same time there so much dubious data and claims posted by manufacturers on this very forum which you seem to support without any questioning. How does this fit together?

 

[planet10]

That is certainly true but you repeatedly fail to show what the error in their scientific study really is.

Simply that it has not been duplicated.

At the same time there so much dubious data and claims posted by manufacturers on this very forum which you seem to support without any questioning. How does this fit together?

I question everything.

dave

 

[pnix]

Simply that it has not been duplicated.

Third time -- The results have been duplicated multiple times by themselves in different studies.

You have repeatedly failed to either point out flaws in the experiment nor did you do your own experiments.
You're certainly free to dismiss evidence but at the same time you're just acting irrational.

I question everything.

dave

Really? You don't seem to have any questions when Markaudio posts measurements. You seem to have questions only when someone else posts measurements of Markaudio drivers.

 

[planet10]

The results have been duplicated multiple times by themselves in different studies.

They key is by themselves. No independent validation.

You have repeatedly failed to either point out flaws

It is a preference test (not a flaw in itself), assumptions that amps are interchangable, and lottle to noconsideration that different speakers require different placement, and to use there switching technique all in the same room.

Really? You don't seem to have any questions when Markaudio posts measurements.

You are not inside my brain so hard for you to say. I pay little attention to measurements knowing how little they tell us and how easily it is for them to be perturbed.

dave

 

[pnix]

They key is by themselves. No independent validation.

Go for it! That's how the scientifc method works. New evidence creates new knowledge. Skepticism alone isn't enough.

It is a preference test (not a flaw in itself), assumptions that amps are interchangable, and lottle to noconsideration that different speakers require different placement, and to use there switching technique all in the same room.

It pretty much goes without saying that a scientific experiment is valid within its documented constraints. Doesn't diminish its validity and results.

You are not inside my brain so hard for you to say.

No mind reading necessary. I simply read your posts. You object to peer reviewed scientific publications but at the same time you seem to be very open for obscure ideas like painting little dots on drivers.

I pay little attention to measurements knowing how little they tell us and how easily it is for them to be perturbed.

dave

Measurements are the only way in going forward. Only if you are able to measure something you will be able to relate it to perception and make predictions. Brushing off the value of measurements prohibits progress. Without Klippel measurements for example there probably wouldn't have been the same kind of progress in driver performance we have seen in the last decade.

 

[rjbond3rd]

Please post more measurements.

 

[chrisb]

Please post more measurements.

assuming identical conditions, equipment

 

[Wodoas]

Just so. Linus Pauling fell into that trap with his book on Vitamin C & the Common Cold. Considered interesting when published, widely ridiculed ever since. In point of fact, he was right -to a point. There weren't all that many studies on the subject when he wrote his book, and one of the most significant available happened to use athletes as the sample group. This skewed his findings, because they do appear to benefit from supplementing their vitamin c intake, unlike the majority of other people, as shown by the additional 4 decades worth of research.

One thing about research on human beings never changes: if you want to generalise, then to establish any kind of certainty you need a statistically significant sample size, drawn from as wide a range of subjects as possible. Smaller scale experiments are interesting and indicative, but cannot be universally applied without more or less significant risk. Black swan hypothesis.

The folks who claim that Pauling Linus Pauling "fell into that trap with his book on Vitamin C & the Common Cold" and who "widely ridicule" him are either (1) pawns and hacks of the massive business of conventional medicine, (2) unwitting people who repeat their propaganda, (3) people who never actually looked deeply into Pauling's work and dietary supplements, or (4) people who fall into a combination of the former categories.

Primarily it is the corrupt BUSINESS of orthodox medicine and their salespeople who keep ridiculing Pauling as some deluded Nobel Prize winner. And it doesn't take a genius to see why: Pauling had been threatening the huge bottom line of big corporate medicine. Here is a good example of a hack MD who has been discrediting Pauling and supplements with disinformation and lies - 2 Big Lies: No Vitamin Benefits & Supplements Are Very Dangerous

If you look closely, you'll find that politics by the allopathy is almost always behind the truly unscientific dumb attacks against Pauling. It's indicative of how little real science is behind the various claims of traditional medicine...

 

[Bob Brines]

You are correct that orthodox medicine is antagonistic to "unconventional" treatments. But Pauling's vitamin C kick was and remains pure nonsense. Let me give you the benefit of 71 years of empirical study. Untreated, a cold takes ~a week and a half to abate. Take 5000mg of VC a day (my wife always does) and you can kick a cold in 10 days.

Bob

 

[chrisb]

could there be more to Vitamin C than just curing the "common" cold that we don't fully understand because the "science isn't finished yet" on the subject?

is "science" every really absolutely finished?

but let's not take on OT thread any further afield than it already is, unless it's all just for sport, in which case ....

where's pnix when you really need him?

 

[pnix]

Science is never finished. New evidence creates new knowledge and expands or even replaces our understanding of reality.

 

[Kevin Warne]

Scientific studies have found that our taste is less individual than some might expect when tested blind. After all we are all humans. I take it you are familiar with the work done by Olive. If listeners see a tube glow or if a speaker is painted in a specific color then bias might kick in big time.

Can't agree more. There is an important consideration to reproduction, that is setting ones's goals in achieving as close as possible to the original - which really means what the microphone 'hears'. Of course you can 'improve' the sound of any one recording according to an individual's taste but the problem is you are then making the same change to all recordings (unless you adjust for each recording). Then if a recording happens to be to your taste in the first place it will be overcooked on the reproduction.

Any form of customisation of the sound will tend to limit the contrast between recordings in this manner. It's like a photo - if you adjust one to look great then you don't necessarily want to make the same change to all photos or you will minimise the contrast bewteen them, which is part of the beauty in the first place. In the case of recorded music the individual adjustment should be done at the mixing desk. Of course this is not an exact science but you at least want to reproduce what was mixed accurately or you are adding your own custom mix to everything!