I have trouble believing this. PVC is going to have at least triple the heat capacity of diamond.
I predate Z80- I had to punch cards for a mainframe.
So is the vinyl mass.
I predate the the Z80, too. In a certain sense, my first PC
was a Telefunken TR-4, the first commercial microprogrammed
machine ever. 48-bit words, microprogram store was a cubic meter
of germanium diodes. We were allowed to operate it in the evening/night
on our own, but without any support. Card punches, readers, chain
printers, later terminals, a complete data center to play with 🙂
And we had to program all the electronic stuff: s-params, NR,
Runge-Kutta, conductance matrix, linearizing transistors, companion
model, before we were given the Spice 2G? sources.
Having caught fire I then continued my studies with computer science,
but stayed on the fence with chip design, both analog and digital.
My first really own computer was a self-designed Z80 with a 70 MB
Fujitsu hard disk, soon with HP 512 MB SCSI, and full RAM,
which was kind of hybris for a student.
But I disgress.
For impairing vinyl it is enough to smear the ripples for 10 KHz, that takes
MUCH less energy than for the bass excursions.
But that sounds like I'm defending a position; I don't. I just found it
convincing enough that I felt that the magic liquid made sense.
From the huckstering I see here it could well be that it all was made
up by Lenco & friends, I have no 'pinion on that, buy my corn pones myself.
regards, Gerhard
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Pardon for some noob observations.
Even if infrared photos of stylus tip shows high temperatures the contact point of vinyl material does not stay long enough to melt it. (remember we can move finger across the candle flame quickly without getting burned) and even if vinyl gets minutely hot, the movement of that area with contact to air may quickly restore the temperature. Just like we blow air on hot area to cool it. Since diamond is good conductor the heat gets transferred to it easily. Probably thats why some times diamond tip comes off due to glue not holding it. So logically it makes sense that the major part heat gets transferred to stylus.
I am guessing all this. 😱
Even if infrared photos of stylus tip shows high temperatures the contact point of vinyl material does not stay long enough to melt it. (remember we can move finger across the candle flame quickly without getting burned) and even if vinyl gets minutely hot, the movement of that area with contact to air may quickly restore the temperature. Just like we blow air on hot area to cool it. Since diamond is good conductor the heat gets transferred to it easily. Probably thats why some times diamond tip comes off due to glue not holding it. So logically it makes sense that the major part heat gets transferred to stylus.
I am guessing all this. 😱
I think most of us in this thread are even from long before the 8008, introduced in '72.
Hans
You mis-understood, play an LP with no electronics you can clearly hear some sound coming from the cart this is mechanical/acoustic energy that is definitely non-zero. Martin Colloms once put an accelerometer on top of a cartridge you could clearly see resonances excited by what was playing.
Unfortunately i don´t have it in my library, but it could have been an article by Dr. Herbert Specht published in the german Audio magazine, Oktober 1980 .
An user in our german forum reported that he did find temperatures around 50 grad celsius at the contact point/line of tip and groove.
The contact point is so tiny and so transient that I'd love to see how they're measuring (or think they're measuring) it. IR imaging has extremely limited resolution because of the wavelength.
50°C I could almost believe, though that still seems higher than one might expect. Hot enough to melt vinyl, that's considerably more difficult to swallow.
50°C I could almost believe, though that still seems higher than one might expect. Hot enough to melt vinyl, that's considerably more difficult to swallow.
Had one of those, I can't imagine imaging with it under a cart. This would have been a heroic effort with little more than I did it for reward.
You'd really need an imager, or at least the last part of the optical train, built into the head shell. In a word: ouch.
And I'd assume the diamond tip would achieve relative steady-state thermal gradients, given it's usage, no? Might provide a slightly better estimate as to frictional heat generation if the heat loss to the cantilever/etc could be estimated.
Or just getting a better look at the groove to see what's been affected.
And I'd assume the diamond tip would achieve relative steady-state thermal gradients, given it's usage, no? Might provide a slightly better estimate as to frictional heat generation if the heat loss to the cantilever/etc could be estimated.
Or just getting a better look at the groove to see what's been affected.
Thermal gradient within bulk of a diamond stylus is calculable and must be negligible, diamond is such an exceptionally good conductor of heat, outstanding in fact.
As you say, the issue of what temperature the stylus bulk reaches is a matter of losses. There's c 3uW to dissipate. If the thermal junction between stylus body and cantilever is reasonable, the cantilever provides a good conduction path with good surface area. Thermal gradient along the cantilever should be negligible for all materials and geometries commonly used.
So I just don't see any indicator of high temperature involved, at least not in the classic sense. At the molecular groove wall surface level there is a momentary exposure to high mechanical stress, for a few uS........ that's about it, not much else to see I think.
LD
There's perhaps 10uW of mechanical power involved in moving the stylus against mechanical impedance mostly provided by cartridge suspension. However, that impedance is not very lossy, and most of this ends up lost in flex losses of various components, cantilever, cartridge body, tonearm, plinth. And all these components aren't dynamically rigid, so do move in response to reaction forces associated with programme material moving the stylus.
Hence the sound ! And yes, variation in friction force should also be 'audible' this way. It should typically sound mostly like pink or brown noise, I think.
If only all cows were spherical and uniform and lived in a vacuum........😉
LD
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Cooling and detector cost are besides the point. The issue is spatial resolution. The contact area between stylus and vinyl is on the order of 2-4 micron, which is on the order of one wavelength at IR frequencies. And that area is physically obscured. If the temperature were 50 degrees C, the wavelength peak would be at about 9 microns, so I cannot see how this could possibly be resolved by imaging even if one could magically see through the stylus.
I think skepticism is warranted.
Scepticism is often warranted; cooling and detector cost are imo only partly beside the point, as - given the age of the publication - it would have needed something like that equipment to have a chance (again imo).
But anyway i thought it would make it easier for Gerhard to find it if he knows where to look for it (if it was the same source he was talking about) and i´ll try to find some more information about it as well.
I'm reminded of the whole "you have to clean the mold release off new records" thing. It's accepted as common wisdom, but it's completely not true. Something gets speculated about by a magazine writer and, independent of reality, it takes on a life of its own.
I've been reading about the "melting vinyl" thing for 40 years and it never made any sense. When I try to chase down evidence, it proves... elusive. 😀
I've been reading about the "melting vinyl" thing for 40 years and it never made any sense. When I try to chase down evidence, it proves... elusive. 😀
Hi,
in the early age of vinyl, it was sometimes tracked with a fitting small needle but a force common of shellac players, say ten grams or more. Result was, that trebles disappeared after a few plays, because vinyl had melted.
Anyway, there are only three serious issues with analogue record playback: At first, pickup of dirt, worsened by electrostatic charge, which attracts dust. At second, parasitic bass pickup due to mechanical and acoustical coupling to the environment. At third, tracking errors due to geometrical imperfections.
The only reason for further reducing friction between tracking tip and vinyl could be electrostatic charge, the dirt issue. But this strive will not have a measurable effect, before one exchanges ruff record sleeves for smooth ones, for usually most electrostatic charge is a result of handling, not of playing.
in the early age of vinyl, it was sometimes tracked with a fitting small needle but a force common of shellac players, say ten grams or more. Result was, that trebles disappeared after a few plays, because vinyl had melted.
Anyway, there are only three serious issues with analogue record playback: At first, pickup of dirt, worsened by electrostatic charge, which attracts dust. At second, parasitic bass pickup due to mechanical and acoustical coupling to the environment. At third, tracking errors due to geometrical imperfections.
The only reason for further reducing friction between tracking tip and vinyl could be electrostatic charge, the dirt issue. But this strive will not have a measurable effect, before one exchanges ruff record sleeves for smooth ones, for usually most electrostatic charge is a result of handling, not of playing.
Playback of records without a compliant suspension shaves or burns programme material by ploughing. Nothing to do with melting, and ploughing is seriously a thing of the past. Nothing to do with VTF either, just lack of isolation of tonearm inertia from tracking of programme material.
Today one can still obtain excellent vinyl cartridges which can track fantastically at 10g VTF without damaging records IME. Ortofon/Serato S-120 for example. Stylus life hacks down, but it seriously tracks old vinyl beautifully at high VTF.
Just the three ? See earlier post for lengthy list, rogues gallery of contributions to noise. That's aside from considering trackability, FM modulation etc. But somehow, it all comes good.
No, friction can directly cause momentary mistracking by way of causing stylus to lose contact with groove. This is the prominent cause of crackle-pop-tick noise, esp on clean records It also adversely affects FM noise, pitch stability, via the LF cart-arm resonance.
Static noise has a very characteristic, and pronounced sound. Having experimented with various lubricants, esp PTFE, which seriously invoke static noise IME, typical crackle-pop-tick noise sounds nothing like it. I doubt static discharge contributes to surface noise in a typical setup.
LD