I have vehemently decided that my next speaker upgrade will be hands down a high end PA speaker, definitely want horns for the mids and a 15 inch for that thumping bass. I have been looking at the Visaton Monitor 890 Mk3 and the Calpamos. And although I can get the Visatons for cost price and prefer it in every way, it still ends up more expensive than the Calpamos if I were to buy the Calpamos without the kit and purchase the drivers separately and digital design crossovers. The difference being about $400 US which is essentially around $600 Aussie dollars.
Putting the soap story aside, lets go with the premise that I go with the Calpamos as the base(if there is any objections and a preference to the Visatons speak now) I am keen to change the 15inch driver to one that plays a little better towards the top end as low extension is not important for me. I have 2 Dayton RSS3150HO which play superbly at a QTC of about .44 start and stop on the dime.
I have chosen the B&C 15NDL76 or the B&C 15FW76 to switch with the original Faital Pro 15PR400 if you have better options please feel free to recommend especially if you know about the Calpamos, the horn mid is the Faital Pro HF201 in a P Audio Ph2380 throat horn flare which can easily go down to 650hz in the original design.
Now, I know that each cabinet has its own unique crossover but I am sure DSP will manage everything in its crossover design and corrections to an extent. I am trying to keep as much as possible the existing design and just find the most appropriate enclosure size for the new woofer.
I know enough about speaker design to ensure I haven't missed anything, in particular making sure that both drivers will reach the end of there frequency spectrum.
Is there anything else I need to watch out for before I embark on this possible project?
If the sub woofers are not as sensitive would that be a problem?
Putting the soap story aside, lets go with the premise that I go with the Calpamos as the base(if there is any objections and a preference to the Visatons speak now) I am keen to change the 15inch driver to one that plays a little better towards the top end as low extension is not important for me. I have 2 Dayton RSS3150HO which play superbly at a QTC of about .44 start and stop on the dime.
I have chosen the B&C 15NDL76 or the B&C 15FW76 to switch with the original Faital Pro 15PR400 if you have better options please feel free to recommend especially if you know about the Calpamos, the horn mid is the Faital Pro HF201 in a P Audio Ph2380 throat horn flare which can easily go down to 650hz in the original design.
Now, I know that each cabinet has its own unique crossover but I am sure DSP will manage everything in its crossover design and corrections to an extent. I am trying to keep as much as possible the existing design and just find the most appropriate enclosure size for the new woofer.
I know enough about speaker design to ensure I haven't missed anything, in particular making sure that both drivers will reach the end of there frequency spectrum.
Is there anything else I need to watch out for before I embark on this possible project?
If the sub woofers are not as sensitive would that be a problem?
Why would you take a recipe and substitute ingredients?
Take a look at the B&C 15NDL76 impedance curve and then look at the Faital Pro 15PR400 impedance curve. The 15NDL76 has a higher EBP, at 154 hz, vs 103 hz for the 15PR400.
https://faitalpro.com/products/files/15PR400/8/15PR400_datasheet_8.pdf
I have measured the 15PR400 ( 4 ohm ) with a homemade impedance jig, and the factory supplied impedance curve is virtually identical to the results I obtained.
Here's the 15PR400 4 ohm coil datasheet:
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15PR400
My measurement:
Take a look at the B&C 15NDL76 impedance curve and then look at the Faital Pro 15PR400 impedance curve. The 15NDL76 has a higher EBP, at 154 hz, vs 103 hz for the 15PR400.
https://faitalpro.com/products/files/15PR400/8/15PR400_datasheet_8.pdf
I have measured the 15PR400 ( 4 ohm ) with a homemade impedance jig, and the factory supplied impedance curve is virtually identical to the results I obtained.
Here's the 15PR400 4 ohm coil datasheet:
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15PR400
My measurement:
Hi,
I have already made the Calpamos according to the plans provided in the HHH site. I have also used the same speaker, compression driver and horn.
But I could not buy the crossover for high price. Instead I bought the dbx234xs crossover and used that first. I have 700hz as crossover point. But it was not sounding good. I guess there is some frequency shaping done in the original crossover. So after some time I bought an equalizer. Now it sounds better with the klark teknik DN 360 eq.
I am still in the process of tuning it properly. And to me it is proving to be rather complicated.
But I must say sometimes when it is tuned properly it sounds great.
Please share your experience TRDAT if you have already made it.
I have already made the Calpamos according to the plans provided in the HHH site. I have also used the same speaker, compression driver and horn.
But I could not buy the crossover for high price. Instead I bought the dbx234xs crossover and used that first. I have 700hz as crossover point. But it was not sounding good. I guess there is some frequency shaping done in the original crossover. So after some time I bought an equalizer. Now it sounds better with the klark teknik DN 360 eq.
I am still in the process of tuning it properly. And to me it is proving to be rather complicated.
But I must say sometimes when it is tuned properly it sounds great.
Please share your experience TRDAT if you have already made it.
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Hi,
Tony has invested a lot of time developing his Calpamos, which is a very nice and very well thought-out speaker. If you change just one of the elements, you´re on your own regarding speaker design. Of course this can be done, and a Calpamos lookalike can be developped with other drivers, other crossovers, other box design and so on. It requires lots of experience, time and money.
In short: You can buy the whole set and build the Calpamos, as it was designed and presented. Or you can do your own design, but that will be something different - not necessarily worse than the original, but probably not cheaper...
However, good luck and all the best
Mattes
Tony has invested a lot of time developing his Calpamos, which is a very nice and very well thought-out speaker. If you change just one of the elements, you´re on your own regarding speaker design. Of course this can be done, and a Calpamos lookalike can be developped with other drivers, other crossovers, other box design and so on. It requires lots of experience, time and money.
In short: You can buy the whole set and build the Calpamos, as it was designed and presented. Or you can do your own design, but that will be something different - not necessarily worse than the original, but probably not cheaper...
However, good luck and all the best
Mattes
Madman,
I ended up going with my own take on the Econowave or Fusion 15, still a large PA style system. I chose the Deltalite 15 and the DE250 compression driver with the B52 PR1014 Horn.
Disclaimer is that I am not an expert but I have come to understand quit a bit about audio and the Deltalite driver although much cheaper than the Faital Pro is not worse or better. What gives the Calpamos the edge is the large horn and a 2 inch compression driver that comfortably goes down to about 600hz. You have a better integration between the 15 inch and compression driver. Your 15 inch does not beam, my crossover is higher at 900hz meaning that my 15 inch beams a little till it gets to the compression driver. I also can't take the compression driver much lower cause the horn isn't capable of loading under about 900hz. So you got a good combo just need to use what's right to get the sound perfected.
I used computer based DSP to time align and flatten the frequency curve, many said that its a risk but when you match drivers appropriately and understand enough about speaker making DSP(Audiolense) does magic.
If you opt for a active crossover, you still need to take measurements find out where the dips and peaks are in the frequency curve and use some type of parametric EQ to flatten the frequency out. I have the DBX and have experimented with it, its not transparent but its not bad at all. It's decent for a crossover but without proper EQ your not going to get proper sound or hear the Calpamos the way it was intended. And even then you wont get anything near the original, as the crossover in the Calpamos would be perfected to time align and flatten curve and give you that perfect sound.
Going digital crossovers like me with Audiolense is not a small fete with purchase of many pieces of equipment but I would vouch for it and say it does magic. You will get a result better than the original Calpamos. An equalizer doesn't have enough taps to equalize out the frequency so you need to go minimum a parametric EQ in Jriver or in another music platform but this again doesn't guarantee you anything. Otherwise you just have to go with something like Acourate or Audiolense but this means you need a DAC and amp for each channel the software is expensive and a lot of time to learn.
I ended up going with my own take on the Econowave or Fusion 15, still a large PA style system. I chose the Deltalite 15 and the DE250 compression driver with the B52 PR1014 Horn.
Disclaimer is that I am not an expert but I have come to understand quit a bit about audio and the Deltalite driver although much cheaper than the Faital Pro is not worse or better. What gives the Calpamos the edge is the large horn and a 2 inch compression driver that comfortably goes down to about 600hz. You have a better integration between the 15 inch and compression driver. Your 15 inch does not beam, my crossover is higher at 900hz meaning that my 15 inch beams a little till it gets to the compression driver. I also can't take the compression driver much lower cause the horn isn't capable of loading under about 900hz. So you got a good combo just need to use what's right to get the sound perfected.
I used computer based DSP to time align and flatten the frequency curve, many said that its a risk but when you match drivers appropriately and understand enough about speaker making DSP(Audiolense) does magic.
If you opt for a active crossover, you still need to take measurements find out where the dips and peaks are in the frequency curve and use some type of parametric EQ to flatten the frequency out. I have the DBX and have experimented with it, its not transparent but its not bad at all. It's decent for a crossover but without proper EQ your not going to get proper sound or hear the Calpamos the way it was intended. And even then you wont get anything near the original, as the crossover in the Calpamos would be perfected to time align and flatten curve and give you that perfect sound.
Going digital crossovers like me with Audiolense is not a small fete with purchase of many pieces of equipment but I would vouch for it and say it does magic. You will get a result better than the original Calpamos. An equalizer doesn't have enough taps to equalize out the frequency so you need to go minimum a parametric EQ in Jriver or in another music platform but this again doesn't guarantee you anything. Otherwise you just have to go with something like Acourate or Audiolense but this means you need a DAC and amp for each channel the software is expensive and a lot of time to learn.
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Hi Trdat,
To me, sounds like you know what you are doing...not missing anything.
It's amazing to me how more alike drivers are than not, when fully tuned with Audiolense, Acourate, or any other quality dsp platform.
I guess my only concern, is does a 15" end up giving all the low end you might want, after you get used to it.
I've found a separate 18" sub, with a 12" and your flavor CD/horn, as my easy-build favorite combo.
Get's back to can a 2-way do it all i guess 🙂
To me, sounds like you know what you are doing...not missing anything.
It's amazing to me how more alike drivers are than not, when fully tuned with Audiolense, Acourate, or any other quality dsp platform.
I guess my only concern, is does a 15" end up giving all the low end you might want, after you get used to it.
I've found a separate 18" sub, with a 12" and your flavor CD/horn, as my easy-build favorite combo.
Get's back to can a 2-way do it all i guess 🙂
I'm still yet to learn more about the time domain sub windows that is my next goal of education. But yes overall, at least I got the understanding and basics down pat.
Yes, many warned the risks of going it alone with a personal design so either I got lucky or Audiolense truly does magic. In my honest opinion, I think its a combination of alleviating as many compromises in the speaker then allowing Audiolense doing what it has to.
Regarding bass, I made the cabinet a SBB4 alignment that way if I decided to go without subs I get tight bass that can be utilized on its own. With this alignment I can potentially plug the ports and get a low QTC cabinet if I add subs. I know QTC factor doesn't have much to do when you cut off the lower frequencies but with experimentation the feeling from a closed cabinet always gives me tighter bass even if its lower mid frequencies.
To answer your question, I can't do without a sub woofer. My sub is Dayton RSSHO 12 inch at .41 QTC is a marvel and I cross it over at 140Hz gives an unbelievable thump and slam. I even have a convolution with no high pass for the 15 inch essentially allowing it to have a closed roll off at about -10 db at 60hz. This gives me enormous bass, tight and time aligned is just out of this world. Of course this only works with dance music but I have other convolutions for other genres.
I can't say I have enough experience to judge whether the 15 inch is enough alone but I personally can't do without a sub.
I am aware that I should of gone with a 12 inch or double 12 inches and one day I will upgrade to a 18 inch sub.
Yes, many warned the risks of going it alone with a personal design so either I got lucky or Audiolense truly does magic. In my honest opinion, I think its a combination of alleviating as many compromises in the speaker then allowing Audiolense doing what it has to.
Regarding bass, I made the cabinet a SBB4 alignment that way if I decided to go without subs I get tight bass that can be utilized on its own. With this alignment I can potentially plug the ports and get a low QTC cabinet if I add subs. I know QTC factor doesn't have much to do when you cut off the lower frequencies but with experimentation the feeling from a closed cabinet always gives me tighter bass even if its lower mid frequencies.
To answer your question, I can't do without a sub woofer. My sub is Dayton RSSHO 12 inch at .41 QTC is a marvel and I cross it over at 140Hz gives an unbelievable thump and slam. I even have a convolution with no high pass for the 15 inch essentially allowing it to have a closed roll off at about -10 db at 60hz. This gives me enormous bass, tight and time aligned is just out of this world. Of course this only works with dance music but I have other convolutions for other genres.
I can't say I have enough experience to judge whether the 15 inch is enough alone but I personally can't do without a sub.
I am aware that I should of gone with a 12 inch or double 12 inches and one day I will upgrade to a 18 inch sub.
That is quite a large Horn sub woofer.
Have you compared it to say a decent sealed sub woofer? If so what is your subjective opinion...?
Have you compared it to say a decent sealed sub woofer? If so what is your subjective opinion...?
I have not listened to too many commercial subwoofers.
But this subwoofer plays quiet nicely with the Calpamos. The sub can produce bass effortlessly in high volume too.
Regards
But this subwoofer plays quiet nicely with the Calpamos. The sub can produce bass effortlessly in high volume too.
Regards
If separate subs are used, the Mezzo Calpamos may be a better and cheaper alternative. The 12PR320 is a more recent woofer that performs better in the midrange. Depending on the horn, the HF108 (of the Mezzo Calpamos) can be crossed at 800-900Hz, thus preventing beaming.
Ro808 is right. If you are going to cross over to a sub at around 100Hz there is no need for a 15" midwoofer. In fact, a 12" would probably integrate a bit better with that B52 waveguide you have. I would still cross over at about 1kHz (plus or minus).
Of course, at this stage what you are building is nothing like the Calpamos - different woofer, different waveguide, different crossover. So why not open yourself up to a different CD as well and just make your own design?
Of course, at this stage what you are building is nothing like the Calpamos - different woofer, different waveguide, different crossover. So why not open yourself up to a different CD as well and just make your own design?
I wish I knew that earlier, I was convinced that a 15 inch would play the kick drum better than smaller sized woofers. I learnt the hard way that the 12 inch would have not only integrated better it still would play just as good as a 15incer if not better.
Overall, I can't complain about the design PC>Jriver>MiniDSPUDIO8>3 DAC's >AMP's into the compression driver and 15 inch woofer and dual 60 litre sealed subs. It sounds great, the bass is dry but it kicks and its the most transient system I have ever heard but I am sure it can be more refined. All my equipment is perfectly measuring, I just don't have distortion specs on my deltalite 2515 but SMSL SU-8 and Hypex amps are well measured.
I am considering a mid horn woofer to intergrate it better. I do have to other options, one being changing to a larger a compression driver or even changing the 15 to a 12 inch but i think the easiest would be to add a 6inch mid woofer in horn, not only I get a 3 way I can just add it on top of the cabinet and tie it win with DSP.
Overall, I can't complain about the design PC>Jriver>MiniDSPUDIO8>3 DAC's >AMP's into the compression driver and 15 inch woofer and dual 60 litre sealed subs. It sounds great, the bass is dry but it kicks and its the most transient system I have ever heard but I am sure it can be more refined. All my equipment is perfectly measuring, I just don't have distortion specs on my deltalite 2515 but SMSL SU-8 and Hypex amps are well measured.
I am considering a mid horn woofer to intergrate it better. I do have to other options, one being changing to a larger a compression driver or even changing the 15 to a 12 inch but i think the easiest would be to add a 6inch mid woofer in horn, not only I get a 3 way I can just add it on top of the cabinet and tie it win with DSP.
I'm not sure that adding a 6" mid-horn is a great idea. Yes, you can cross it low to integrate well with the woofer. But you'll then have to cross it relatively high to the tweeter at which point the center-to-center distance between the mid and tweet will be several wavelengths. Now this might be OK if you can steer the main lobe to the listening position (this presumes you have a fixed listening position), but in my experience you'll need a fairly long distance between you and the speaker in order for the two drivers to integrate well. If you do go the 6" route you may find that a smaller waveguide will work better.
Thanks for the insight, unfortunately there is only one JBL waveguide available that I can find and its pretty large so the centre to centre will be at least 30cm apart.
So is the main issue time alignment? Or even with DSP configuration would it radiate in such a way that it could still sound like it is coming from 2 different sound sources. Yes, I am sitting max 2 metres away.
I am in fixed position and techinally there would be beaming with the 15 inch so being in a fixed position is not a such a bad thing I just would prefer a more refined speaker and have a larger listening area.
So is the main issue time alignment? Or even with DSP configuration would it radiate in such a way that it could still sound like it is coming from 2 different sound sources. Yes, I am sitting max 2 metres away.
I am in fixed position and techinally there would be beaming with the 15 inch so being in a fixed position is not a such a bad thing I just would prefer a more refined speaker and have a larger listening area.
Look at the Faital STH100 or Eminence WG10 for a smaller waveguide.
Time alignment is not the issue. That can be mitigated in crossover (most easily with DSP). It is the center-to-center distance (usually in the vertical axis) that causes the lobing problems. And these cannot be fixed in crossover.
Time alignment is not the issue. That can be mitigated in crossover (most easily with DSP). It is the center-to-center distance (usually in the vertical axis) that causes the lobing problems. And these cannot be fixed in crossover.
Even if I switch the compresion driver waveguide to a smaller one and tie it in with a waveguide for the mid driver the centre to centre distance will still be at least 20cm, this option will not nesecerally refine the speaker if lobing still might be an issue with such a large gap. My seating position is only 1 to 2 metres away. Its for home 2 channel use.
It seems the best option is just to upgrade to a 2 inch compression driver to tie in with the 15 inch.
The 12 inch is an option as well but I can't imagine the reduced beaming is going to make for a signficantly better speaker design especially when the listening position is mainly fixed in one spot.
What I have now, is pretty good if I was to upgrade it will have to be worth it in terms of a jump in improvement. If you have any suggestions or recomendations your input will be appreciated.
It seems the best option is just to upgrade to a 2 inch compression driver to tie in with the 15 inch.
The 12 inch is an option as well but I can't imagine the reduced beaming is going to make for a signficantly better speaker design especially when the listening position is mainly fixed in one spot.
What I have now, is pretty good if I was to upgrade it will have to be worth it in terms of a jump in improvement. If you have any suggestions or recomendations your input will be appreciated.
I am using a 6" mid and the STH100 horn with great success crossing at 1.6kHz (where their horizontal directivity's meets), c-c distance is about 14cm, that's almost half wavelength (0.65 to be exact) at the crossover frequency, so the vertical lobing is not too severe. Of course this is a very different speaker than the Calpamos.
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Is your 6 inch in a horn/waveguide? Cause if its not then yeh it is possible to have a decent centre to centre distance between the compression driver/horn to the 6inch. But you sacrifice directivity between 500hz and your crossover region at about 1600hz which is prefered, of course depends on your deisgn goals.
I was thinking of putting the 6inch in a horn to have that directivity till about 500hz or thereabouts.
I was thinking of putting the 6inch in a horn to have that directivity till about 500hz or thereabouts.
The 6" is a direct radiator without horn and the directivity of the lower region is mitigated by adequate baffle width choice, because loudspeaker baffles/boxes acts as waveguides.
Loudspeaker Enclosures are Waveguides
Loudspeaker Enclosures are Waveguides