I am posting for Information to help a Friend with a Investigation.
My Friend has recently overhauled a Low Watt SET Vintage Amp.
The Amp has made quite a impression on Speakers that are not ideally suitable,
and when it did get attached to a Efficient Pair of Tannoy's at a friends home it delivered in a attractive manner.
Neither of us are fluent in Speaker Build Talk,
I will have a go at best describing the type of build sought.
The question is, as Size/Volume of Speakers and Budget/Drivers Xover is Limiting.
This is a Second System to be used in a room approx' 3Mtrs x 3Mtrs (10'x10')
Is there a DIY Speaker available with a Easy Load and High Efficiency,
that can be built in a Cabinet similar to a Two Way Stand Mounter, with a Driver/Drivers Array that would be not too costly and serve as a match for the Three Watts Output of the SET ?
My Friend has recently overhauled a Low Watt SET Vintage Amp.
The Amp has made quite a impression on Speakers that are not ideally suitable,
and when it did get attached to a Efficient Pair of Tannoy's at a friends home it delivered in a attractive manner.
Neither of us are fluent in Speaker Build Talk,
I will have a go at best describing the type of build sought.
The question is, as Size/Volume of Speakers and Budget/Drivers Xover is Limiting.
This is a Second System to be used in a room approx' 3Mtrs x 3Mtrs (10'x10')
Is there a DIY Speaker available with a Easy Load and High Efficiency,
that can be built in a Cabinet similar to a Two Way Stand Mounter, with a Driver/Drivers Array that would be not too costly and serve as a match for the Three Watts Output of the SET ?
It's worth mentioning at the beginning that you're up against Hoffman's Iron Law: Small size, efficient, low bass: pick any two.
I tend to pick one and then muck around with the other two.
Some more info would be useful:
- Budget
- Maximum cabinet size (can it be a floorstander?)
- Maximum SPL desired
- What sort of music will be played
If I was given this design brief, depending on the budget, I'd go for a pair of 18Sound 6ND430 in a floor-standing ML-TL enclosure tuned around 40Hz, and add either an efficient 1" dome, or a compression driver on a small horn. Crossover in the 1.5-2kHz range.
That should end up in the low-90s at 1w, which is pretty respectable.
Chris
I tend to pick one and then muck around with the other two.
Some more info would be useful:
- Budget
- Maximum cabinet size (can it be a floorstander?)
- Maximum SPL desired
- What sort of music will be played
If I was given this design brief, depending on the budget, I'd go for a pair of 18Sound 6ND430 in a floor-standing ML-TL enclosure tuned around 40Hz, and add either an efficient 1" dome, or a compression driver on a small horn. Crossover in the 1.5-2kHz range.
That should end up in the low-90s at 1w, which is pretty respectable.
Chris
Hi Chris
I have informed my friend of this Thread and asked that they look in on it to see any of the suggestions..
Hopefully he does and offers a clearer picture of his Needs.
As a guidance following the investigation of the Cressy's owned Fane Cabinets,
it was stated they are too large to be accommodated in the second system room.
The Fane 12-250TC Driver Units were within a acceptable Budget and were of attraction.
As for Genre of Music Types - Blues - Jazz - Female Vocals as Soft Rock or Folk and Classical replayed via a TT.
I have informed my friend of this Thread and asked that they look in on it to see any of the suggestions..
Hopefully he does and offers a clearer picture of his Needs.
As a guidance following the investigation of the Cressy's owned Fane Cabinets,
it was stated they are too large to be accommodated in the second system room.
The Fane 12-250TC Driver Units were within a acceptable Budget and were of attraction.
As for Genre of Music Types - Blues - Jazz - Female Vocals as Soft Rock or Folk and Classical replayed via a TT.
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If it were me, I'd look at one of these to start.
Fostex FE206NV 8" Full Range
Seas Prestige FA22RCZ (H1597-08) 8" Fullrange
Seas Prestige FA22RCZ (H1597-08) 8" Fullrange
I might also look into pi speakers and AudioNirvana speakers as well
Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
DIY Full-Range Speaker Kits High Efficiency Speaker Audio Nirvana
Fostex FE206NV 8" Full Range
Seas Prestige FA22RCZ (H1597-08) 8" Fullrange
Seas Prestige FA22RCZ (H1597-08) 8" Fullrange
I might also look into pi speakers and AudioNirvana speakers as well
Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
DIY Full-Range Speaker Kits High Efficiency Speaker Audio Nirvana
Hello Chris and Mike. It's me who's looking for more efficient speakers for my second system and I've had a few discussions with John on this. Many thanks for your comments/recommendations. A few more details: the room size is approx. 16' X 10' and the SET amp is powering some modified Audiomaster P202s with new Audax TW025A0 tweeters and Kef B200 bass units. The amp sounds excellent through these, but clearly lacks headroom with its 3w/channel - I usually listen at moderate levels max 80db. Floorstanders would be fine, but the footprint would need to be about the size of living voice speakers, or if the cabinet were of limited depth (about a foot max) I could accommodate something wider up to 18 inches. They have to be close to the wall, so not standing in free space. Budget would be up to £500. I'll certainly have a look through your suggestions. The amp is a Grundig CS200 unit from an old Bergamo radiogram. It uses a single ELL80 in twin triode mode. I hooked it up for a bit of fun and was bowled over having never heard an SET before. I'm listening to this setup more than my main system at the moment. Any further suggestions very welcome.
John
John
ELL80 is an interesting tube.
The 2nd tube is the rectifier.
3W might be an optimistic estimate of its power.
Given the (probably) high output impedance of this amplifier, a flat impedance curve is wanted. This is often the realm of sungle FR speakers, if you are looking at. amultiway pay attention to the measured impedance of the speaker.
A smallish loudspeaker (half a yard wide is not all that small thou), can be efficient or have bass or some compromise in-between. A speaker that hugs the wall will be able to take advantage of the wall behind to help the bottom.
The most common efficient speakers with FRs are usually fairly large horns.
I can imagine a large enuff box that fits your constraints, FA22 in something custom, or A10p in Poplar for example.
This one is not small, but given how it hgs the wall might suit and it is quite efficient.
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/j-Day-wallHorn-070411.pdf
dave
The 2nd tube is the rectifier.
3W might be an optimistic estimate of its power.
Given the (probably) high output impedance of this amplifier, a flat impedance curve is wanted. This is often the realm of sungle FR speakers, if you are looking at. amultiway pay attention to the measured impedance of the speaker.
A smallish loudspeaker (half a yard wide is not all that small thou), can be efficient or have bass or some compromise in-between. A speaker that hugs the wall will be able to take advantage of the wall behind to help the bottom.
The most common efficient speakers with FRs are usually fairly large horns.
I can imagine a large enuff box that fits your constraints, FA22 in something custom, or A10p in Poplar for example.
This one is not small, but given how it hgs the wall might suit and it is quite efficient.
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/j-Day-wallHorn-070411.pdf
dave
Hi Dave,
I was thinking of Hoffmans's Iron Law. If I had to choose two out of the three, I'd take efficiency and bass.
Thanks for your input Dave. As interesting as the Wall Horns are I think it would be difficult for my wife to accept them. As she said last night ' There are lines in the sand'. Lots of potential here for me to investigate and thanks to all who have contributed.
John
John
For a speaker that has a small footprint and must be against a wall, I think BIB. I am very happy with my MA A10.3 BIBs driven by 6 wpc SS amp. If you don't play loud, MAYBE 3 wpc MIGHT be enough, especially if there isn't a great deal of bass.
I just looked at the MA Alpair 11MS. At 88 dB sensitivity, it's about the same as the A10.3, but would use a slightly shorter cabinet. From the BIB calculator, I get 9"w x 12" d x 77.5" h.
Just a thought...
I just looked at the MA Alpair 11MS. At 88 dB sensitivity, it's about the same as the A10.3, but would use a slightly shorter cabinet. From the BIB calculator, I get 9"w x 12" d x 77.5" h.
Just a thought...
Thanks Danny and Jim for your contributions. Looking at the KJS Audio site there might be an option using their Pensil 11 kit with the Alpair 11 driver. The Troels TQWT will be beyond my DIY capabilities I think.
John
John
3 W = ~4.77 dB
80 dB avg + 20 dB dynamic headroom = 100 - 4.77 = ~95.23 dB eff. speakers required, so can't think of a viable option ATM other than dropping to +15 dB and let the tube euphonically clip it = ~90.23 dB eff., which gives some good options.
Cab depth ideally needs to be > 1.5x driver depth and if it is placed at seated ear height in a tall, floor mounted column speaker it might have sufficient internal net volume to allow a low Fs tuning with wall/floor boosting the lowest bass to get a higher efficiency.
80 dB avg + 20 dB dynamic headroom = 100 - 4.77 = ~95.23 dB eff. speakers required, so can't think of a viable option ATM other than dropping to +15 dB and let the tube euphonically clip it = ~90.23 dB eff., which gives some good options.
Cab depth ideally needs to be > 1.5x driver depth and if it is placed at seated ear height in a tall, floor mounted column speaker it might have sufficient internal net volume to allow a low Fs tuning with wall/floor boosting the lowest bass to get a higher efficiency.
A Mini-Karlsonator might work?
Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FDs
The one with dual Faital Pro drivers or with a Dayton PA130-8 are quite sensitive IIRC.
Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FDs
The one with dual Faital Pro drivers or with a Dayton PA130-8 are quite sensitive IIRC.
Dual 3FE25-16's in Karlsonators is about 93dB at 2.83v and 8ohms nominal.
PA130-8 is about 90dB at 2.83v and 8ohms nominal.
Tang Band W5-2143 is about 90dB at 2.83v and 8ohms nominal.
If your amp can drive 4 ohms, dual 3FE25-8's will get you 96dB at 2.83v but 4ohms.
If you have a separate powered sub, a PRV 5MR450NDY-8 is about 95dB at 2.83v and 8ohms.
The PA130-8 is a highly under-rated driver. I think it is very lively and natural sounding and capable of good bass in a Karlsonator. Don't let the low price or ugly industrial "PA" look fool you.
Of all of these, the W5-2143 is the one capable of the most bass and has a nice balance with great reach in the high end. It also looks beautiful and is precision built with alloy chassis and nice phase plug and surround.
PA130-8 is about 90dB at 2.83v and 8ohms nominal.
Tang Band W5-2143 is about 90dB at 2.83v and 8ohms nominal.
If your amp can drive 4 ohms, dual 3FE25-8's will get you 96dB at 2.83v but 4ohms.
If you have a separate powered sub, a PRV 5MR450NDY-8 is about 95dB at 2.83v and 8ohms.
The PA130-8 is a highly under-rated driver. I think it is very lively and natural sounding and capable of good bass in a Karlsonator. Don't let the low price or ugly industrial "PA" look fool you.
Of all of these, the W5-2143 is the one capable of the most bass and has a nice balance with great reach in the high end. It also looks beautiful and is precision built with alloy chassis and nice phase plug and surround.
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The Mini Karlsonator Design and Dimensions are looking very interesting.
I'm pleased I assisted John with his search and discovered this design.
These are looking ideal for a High Efficiency Speaker, that will be a part of a
Not Too Intrusive Second System, I have been putting a Plan in place for.
Descriptions of the performance of the Mini Karlsonator on the Link Pages are very encouraging.
I'm pleased I assisted John with his search and discovered this design.
These are looking ideal for a High Efficiency Speaker, that will be a part of a
Not Too Intrusive Second System, I have been putting a Plan in place for.
Descriptions of the performance of the Mini Karlsonator on the Link Pages are very encouraging.
Thanks Zia and ZRK. I've never come across the Karlsonator design and it does look a very interesting alternative to horns. The amp is designed for a 5ohm speaker load so it should work well with the 4 ohm 3FE25-8 units. John - perhaps we could do a joint project on this? Need to find someone who can cut the ply to suit though.
John
John
I'll throw in my two-cents for the likes of the Audio Nirvana ten inch full-ranger...the 10 super ferrite variation. At 175 liters of internal dimensions, it will get you down to -3.03 Db @ 39.79 hertz in a conventional, easy to build BR configuration. Rated at 96.03 Db & thirty watts capable...just my favorite. The eight inch version probably won't go that low, the twelve inch variation gets really low (-3 Db @ 23 hz), but at the expense of a 750+ liter enclosure.
---------------------------------------------------------------------Rick.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------Rick.....
Sure looks good on paper based on published specs! ~90 L MLTL backed up against a wall sims ~101 dB/W/m, ~50 Hz F3 and ~94 dB/W/m/42 Hz coupled to a typical SET amp.
Got any measured specs? AN historically been notorious for publishing really far off specs.
TIA
Got any measured specs? AN historically been notorious for publishing really far off specs.
TIA